DogOnPorch

The night bomber offensive...while a success overall, ran into trouble because the Germans weren't stupid. They made a grid of their own where they placed a nightfighter in each square that hung around much like a spider waiting for a fly. The Allies suffered greatly. Halifaxes and Lancasters falling like 9-pins. Aircraft like the Heinkel 219 Owl Me-210 and Me-110 carved huge holes in the ranks of Bomber Command. As for the Luftwaffe flak units. Using a radar aimed 88mm or 128mm flak gun with timed fuses (night or day) is not something a civilian does. This isn't Iraqis shooting into the air like New Years in San Diego. It takes a trained crew. Being in the military I'd expect you to know this. As for where the flak units were drawn from...where do you think the bulk of the Wehrmacht was located? North Africa? No...over 80% of Germany's ground units were fighting in Russia. The demand for anti-aircraft units around German facilities jumped from nothing in 1940 to "O mein Gott!!!" by 1944. Guilo Doucet... Both he and HG Wells (The Shape Of Things To Come) predicted strategic bombing against civilians. ------------------------------------------------ We'll meet again...don't know where...don't know when... ---Vera Lynn

Monte Cassino Yup...made a good fort...walls up or down. When I say bombing campaign, I mean the bombing of primarily civilian centers to "break morale". When I say combined bomber offensive...I mean just that. The British bombing offensive was a failure when they concentrated on breaking civilian morale. Read the above link. Despite bombing the cities armament production continued to rise. Even when the bombing offensive proved to be somewhat useless it continued. Night area bombing went from impossible to accurate with the help of electronics...and guidance radar grids. The first raids in 1940 were way off target. Hamburg, however, was a good example of 'on the money'. Personally I find it odd that you would make such a statement, yet not be able to enlighten me further. Father and an uncle were in Bomber Command...another uncle in 8th Airforce. I got a good dose of it when younger. I also had an uncle serving in the Waffen-SS in Yugoslavia who went on to be a translator at the war crime trials...as well as family members who survived the Holocaust...and died in the Holocaust. Twisted, huh? No..I'm not Jewish. What are your roots? Maybe we have something in common... As for your other thoughts. The US 8th airforce entered the battle in the spring of 1942. I'm well aware of the Battle of Stalingrad and other turning points...more than you I'm willing to bet. Re: 1944...German war production hit its peek early that year. After that it was all downhill production-wise due to Allied bombing. The Soviets didn't engage in strategic bombing except for the odd Pe-8 raid over Berlin. The Soviets did however win hands down on the ground...especially with the destruction of Army Group Centre and Korsun pocket. I'm not sure how the campaign drew 100,000's of troops from the east... Troops from the Eastern Front were used to man the rising number of AAA around German cities. These soldiers were sorely missed. Not really, it's fine to question the tactics we used in World War 2. What's the point of studying history if you don't analyze it and learn from it. I'd question the ethics of the bombing campaign in World War 2, and how effective it really was during the war. There's 'questioning tactics' and then there's Holocaust denial and equally stupid things. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I did not know (of any developing holocaust) and again I would not have believed it. ---Julius Steicher

As far as I know the frigate was tied up in port. Nope...in deeper water a few km out into the Gulf...see the various maps out now. So now you are speculating now as well. About possible causes for letting every other ship that violates 'Iranian waters' go unchecked...speculation is all one can do. You're "speculation" was that the 15 RN sailors were still on the Japanese frieghter when taken prisoner. That's just "speculation" due to not reading. Let me refresh: Now if those already indentified contacts marked as Iranian started to move pick up speed, thier course could be plotted and indentified well in advance...I guess the piont is nothing could happen on that water way that the frig did not know of within seconds of it happening...plenty of time to have ordered the helo into a blocking postion, and have the boarding party disembark for the frig.... You seem clever...I just think you need to work on your sources and references. You could have caught that if you'd read the articles at hand. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. ---Syrus Publilius

Not really, I think that when they were only suppose to "shatter" civilian morale; they had little effect. In some cases bombing actually worked to the German's advantage. I don't think the bombing of civilian's was the "war winner". Personally, it looks like you know little to nothing about the combined bomber offensive...inspite of your military background which I find odd. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I came in here and saw this thing, the symbols, looking the way it looked... I wanted to get right in there and taxi it out. ---Paul Tibbets, upon seeing the first B-29 Superfortress.

Or the rapture, for that matter. Oh get serious...most folks in the secular/agnostic West could give a fiddler's f**k about the stupid Christian rapture. In fact, the only time I hear about it on a regular basis is at forums like these. --------------------------------------------------------------- We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. ---Jonathan Swift

I'm just finding it difficult to believe it was that easy to snatch those sailors right under a modern frigs nose and nothing happen. Really? What's so hard to believe? The Iranians had the initiative (as do most surprise attackers) thus played the first card in the hand. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The heart of a fool is in his mouth, but the mouth of a wise man is in his heart. ---Ben Franklin

Frankly...you don't know if somebody fell asleep at the switch or not. Neither do I. All we do know is that these searches have been going on for years, and as I pointed out with maps & other sources...including the history of the Iran Iraq border...that other ships seem to happily enter 'Iranian waters' without trouble. So if this is merely a case of Iran doing its job, I'd say they've been sitting on their fat butts and letting thousands of ships ply 'Iranian waters' without kidnapping the crews. What gives?? Lazy? Or is it just that they decided that it was high time to make an international crisis in response to unfavorable results re: their nuclear program? I think the latter....think being the operative word. ------------------------------------------------- I reject your reality and substitute my own. ---Adam Savage: Mythbusters.

Now if those already indentified contacts marked as Iranian started to move pick up speed, thier course could be plotted and indentified well in advance...I guess the piont is nothing could happen on that water way that the frig did not know of within seconds of it happening...plenty of time to have ordered the helo into a blocking postion, and have the boarding party disembark for the frig.... I believe they were taken in their boats on their way back to the HMS Cornwall after inspecting a Japanese frieghter thought to be carrying cars. You should read more before speculating. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't. ---Margaret Thatcher

Yeah Dresden, that was completely justified, even though it didn't really accomplish anything. Dresden, one of the final big combined US-UK-Canadian air raids of the European campaign, was actually in support of the Russian advance into Germany in a war where strategic bombing was becoming less important. To quote Bomber Command at the time: The Air Staff have now arranged that, subject to the overriding claims of attacks on enemy oil production and other approved target systems within the current directive, available effort should be directed against Berlin, Dresden, Chemnitz and Leipzig or against other cities where severe bombing would not only destroy communications vital to the evacuation from the east, but would also hamper the movement of troops from the west. However, that doesn't mean bombing Dresden...a medieval city with only the rail yard as a 'real' target...was a good thing for civilization. It was right out of a Brother's Grimm fairy tale and we blew it up at all humankind's expense. But the same can be said of dozens of major cities across Europe with rich histories. So really...do you think the bomber offensive against Germany was a war crime? Or was it just another horror in an already long and horrible war? It is probably the most effective attack the Western Allies pulled off against Nazi Germany. The campaign drew 100,000s of troops from the Eastern Front (where they were very much needed) to arm the flak cannons around Germany's cities. Not to mention smashing German war production from a tide-water high in early 1944 to near nothing by 1945. It was a war winner. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe it is peace in our time. ---Neville Chamberlain, 1938

Let us not forget that the Arabs had years to fulfill the "aspirations" of the Palestinians for a "Palestinian homeland" long before the "Zionists" took over. Let's also not forget that there's nothing stopping Jordan making one today if they so desire. Present company accepted...whenever I hear the word "Zionist" used "seriously" I know I'm dealing with someone who is living somewhere in the past...say around 1935. Zionism was a movement to gain a Jewish homeland...Israel is a fact. Yeah, right. Why and how did you barge into a country thousands miles away, without any clue about what's going on, or any valid reasons to start a war. Killing thousands of innocents, destroying power structure that all but unleashed a full blown civil war with thousands more casualties. Is that what you meant? I don't think ScottSA barged into Iraq...I may be wrong. Scott? Did you invade a country without permission? Bad...bad...bad, Scott. I think you deserve this as punishment...heheh --------------------------------------------------------------- We interrupt this program to annoy you and make things generally irritating. ---BBC Announcer: 'Monty Python's Flying Circus'.

Actually, in India toilets are rarely used, and toilet paper is never used. Well I was generous in calling filth encrusted cardboard boxes Thomas Crappers...heheh. The disturbing part of those photos are the young lads searching for scrap metal and other objects of "value" in the open Bombay sewers. That can't be good.... As for Iran and the bomb. I shudder to think what Iran with a nuke + launcher would do. Either via strongarm tactics like were seeing now...or just plain launching the damn thing at Israel and dealing with the 'fallout' afterwards. -------------------------------------------------- Especially in hot climates, where houses have a big deck, make sure it's well-supported and that there are no signs of rot. You want to be sure it's going to hold up when a dozen people sit on it during an afternoon cookout. ---Bob Vila

Then there's Bombay toilets in the poorer sections....ewwwwwwww. http://www.simone.bruno.name/india/Day4/index.htm ---------------------------------------------------- Filipinos want beauty. I have to look beautiful so that the poor Filipinos will have a star to look at from their slums. ---Imelda Marcos

Hardliners in Iran are calling for things like trials or just plain executions. That'll fix things... ---------------------------------------------------------- The worst crime is faking it ---Kurt Cobain

Yeah...I seem to recall that Taliban mouthpiece being anything but cooperative re: handing over Bin Laden. ------------------------------------------------ A lot of holes in the desert, and a lot of problems are buried in those holes. But you gotta do it right. I mean, you gotta have the hole already dug before you show up with a package in the trunk. Otherwise, you're talking about a half-hour to forty-five minutes worth of digging. And who knows who's gonna come along in that time? Pretty soon, you gotta dig a few more holes. You could be there all f**kin' night. ---Nicky Santoro: Joe Pesci, Casino.

Ah, but according to the Law of Lefty Counterexample, one single counterexample negates everything. If an abortion clinic was bombed once by some fringe Christian anti-abortion group, obviously this entirely negates 1000s of daily killings, beheadings and riotings on a global scale by Islam. So here it is! The Charge of the Light Brigade! The British were driven to desperation by the Russians brutally defending Sevas....no wait...they were driven to desperation because they were fighting the occupiers of their....no wait...the brutal Russian winter...no...the damned Turks made them do i... Most folks have such a poor sense of history. But it is one of the few things that make us human...recording or past. Too bad it is no longer taught with any seriousness outside of university or West Point et al. What we have going on is a general revision of what happened over the last 100 years or so in some circles. It's pretty freaky to hear some folks describing things like the Bomber Offensive against Germany as American aggression. Another point that bothers me is selective history...much like talking about the 1948 War without mentioning the Grand Mufti of Jersusalem or the Jewish Stern/Irgun gangs. Or the 6 Day War without mentioning Nasser's attitude at the time. Or refering to Syria, Jordan and Egypt without the footnote that they were more or less on the Soviet/Warsaw Pact side during the Cold War. Not to forget the Holocaust denial so common these days from some quarters. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ These Muslim volunteer units under Haj Amin al-Husseini, called Hanjar (sword), were put in Waffen-SS units, fought Yugoslav partisans in Bosnia and carried out police and security duties in Hungary. They participated in the massacre of civilians in Bosnia and volunteered to join in the hunt for Jews in Croatia..." -- Encyclopedia of the Holocaust

Because civilized nations don't immediately pounce on, attack and arrest the military or police forces of a neighbour when they stray across the imaginary border in the middle of an ocean or lake. They simply point out the error, and send them on their way. Now imagine if Geroge Bush & crew snatched a few Iranians from a ship in their waters...took them to Washington DC then made the "POWs" wear trappings of the Christian culture on TV...or worse, I imagine....the Jewish culture. There'd be riots across the world of Islam...at least that's my bold prediction...lol. Meanwhile...it is apparently some Iranian law that has Royal Navy sailor Faye Turney dressed in civilian clothes w/ Islamic headscarf. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Having the critics praise you is like having the hangman say you've got a pretty neck. ---Eli Wallach

You see, it can't be judged out of context, because they are all different moral situations. Rocket launcher where? Why is it where it is? Did it really have to be destroyed at the expense of almost certain loss of innocent life? While letting this rocket launcher continue to shoot does the same thing...just to other "innocent people"? Don't plan on a future as an officer in the infantry...lol. Crowded market where? Why are there people ready to blow themselves to pieces (along with dozens of others)? Did something happen to drive them into that condition? Yes. It is because of a heavy devotion to Islam in some circles which promises glory in the afterlife for those who die in the service of Alah. The only other thing even remotely like it is the Bushido Code which which had Japanese diving into aircraft carriers and conducting suicide charges into machine guns. If desperate conditions alone were the reason for suicide bombers, history would have recorded them at numerous other desperate times and places. Warsaw...Dien Bien Phu...Bataan/Corregidor...Stalingrad...Leningrad...Appomattox...Hong Kong...Singapore...etc, etc, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After the first day of marching, without food or water, men began to drop out of column. Japanese guards would rush up, shouting commands in Japanese to get back in the group. When that approach failed, shots rang, out killing those who would not or could not rise. Many of those failing to obey the order to march were beheaded by sword wielding-Japanese guards, usually officers and non-coms. ---Maj Richard Gordon

BC-2004: Here is a good map of the relative positions from the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/6502805.stm Thanks BC-2004... Yeah...that map semed to be a few days in coming. What it doesn't show is that due to massive mud flats and sand bars, ship traffic must go certain ways depending on tonnage. To add to the fun, the Persian Gulf's odd tides change these channels on a regular basis...especially at the northern end. http://www.vims.edu/physical/research/TCTu...ideanalysis.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead! ---Admiral David Farragut: Battle of Mobile 1864.

Back on topic.... If one cruises along the Shatt al-arab using Google maps, one can see the HUGE number of boats used on this river. No wonder the Brits are searching for weapons there. It's just a short hop across the river to Iran and its supplies. In the middle of the night I'd say there'd be few problems getting contraband across. Check out this mob of boats for example.... Plus if you pull back a bit...you'll see three boats over halfway across the river on the Iranian side. As they're likely Iraqi tugs (due to the proximity of the Iraqi port) one might assume the Iranians are pretty selective about who is 'in Iranian waters'. Army Guy: My only question about this whole affair, is what was the skipper of the frig thinking about letting his boarding party be siezed by a few Iranian gunboats. I'm not a naval boarding party expert, but the frig should have not been more than 500 meters from the boarding party in the first place....and they should have known well head of time that the iranians gunboats were on route to intercept them... The Shatt al-arab and it's mouth are a nightmare of sandbars. The HMS Cornwall would probably have some real problems with groundings operating in the close confines...thus the smaller craft that head up the river. The heavy ships stick to the Gulf...but you can actually see some smaller frieghters moving up the river through the deepest channels...apparently on the Iranian side again...lol. Army Guy: And why did he not inform the iranian gunboats to keep thier distance or be fire upon...i mean a modern frigate could have easily handled the gunboats....Can someone out there with a navy back ground explain this to us... The HMS Cornwall was nowhere near. But the Royal Navy had a helicopter in the area keeping tabs on the searches. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- There must be a beginning of any great matter, but the continuing unto the end until it be thoroughly finished yields the true glory. ---Sir Francis Drake

Hi gatekeeper. The majority of the WMD which Saddam had accumulated while he was still the US' patsy were destroyed during the first Gulf War. You can stop shilling. Not to mention that the ones who are actually using weaponry against civilians which can have lasting effects which far outweigh your "VX" gas are the Americans in the forms of DU artillary as well as phosphorous weaponry. So... think about it. Now, can we get back on topic at all? Or do you always like to divert? Hi Revisionist. I eagerly await your first anti-Sem...errrr...anti-Zionist thread. You're free to read back through this thread and find my quite relevant posts. I include maps and sources as per usual. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Our many Jewish friends and acquaintances are being taken away in droves. The Gestapo is treating them very roughly and transporting them in cattle cars to Westerbork, the big camp in Drenthe to which they're sending all the Jews....If it's that bad in Holland, what must it be like in those faraway and uncivilized places where the Germans are sending them? We assume that most of them are being murdered. The English radio says they're being gassed. ---Anne Frank

Link? That number seems ridiculously high. Most estimates I've heard ranged between 1.5 and 3 tons. 1 ton of VX spread over Baghdad would render the place uninhabitable for perhaps decades. But I should correct myself and state that these were precursors rather than finished product. Still, in this case 1-3 tons seems ridculously low. Kim Al-Khaleej...a UAE company based in Singapore supplied Saddam with 4500 tons of VX nerve agent precursor (the chemicals needed) in the 1980s. Very little (if any) was used in action and the rest was claimed destroyed. As this seems highly unlikely due to the problems with actually destroying it, we can assume it is somewhere...perhaps buried in the desert as its form of 'destruction'. It should be noted that Iraq started its own VX and Sarin production during the late 1980s. Sadly, UN inspectors had no way of knowing if it's all gone. They supervised the destruction or verified Iraq's supposed unilateral claims of destruction and came up with your source's figure of 1-3 tons missing. Wishful thinking. According to Iraq's account, the remaining choline from the 10 tons was burned in early 1988 and the remaining 247 tons of phosphorous pentasulphide was discarded in 1991 by scattering it over an area of land and putting it in pits. Iraq also claimed that 213 tons of di-isopropylamine was destroyed by bombing during the Gulf war. However, while the Commission has found traces of these chemicals at the sites at which Iraq states their destruction occurred, it has not been able to verify the quantities destroyed. Thus, precursors for the production of at least 200 to 250 tons of VX could not be definitively accounted for. Most of these claims of destruction are unilateral...sort of a "did you guys get rid of that stuff?"..."yeah, we got rid of that stuff" situation. http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/cw/program.htm http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/s/s1995-0284.htm http://www.iraqwatch.org/suppliers/Iraq-oped-nyt-2003.htm As a side note: the terrorists in Iraq apparetly used a Sarin gas shell + bomb back in 2004. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4997808 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can imagine that the Iraqis undertake the destruction out of fear. If they had denied it, if they had said no, that certainly would have played into the hands of those that would like to take armed action immediately. I have no illusions in that regard. ---Hans Blix

Wasn't CNN the same news organisation who reported on the WMD in Iraq?! The point I am making is that CNN HAS lied before - so how do you know that they aren't lying again? B_Cat I assume. The trouble with the much trumpeted 'no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq' is that it fails to account for things such as 4500 tons of VX nerve agent which Saddam had stockpiled. As this chemical weapon requires VERY SPECIAL facilities NOT FOUND IN IRAQ to destroy, most sane people will conclude that this stuff is either still buried in the desert somewhere or in the possesion of a neighbor such as Syria. But since everyone's dog & cat now claim "no WMDs"...out of sight...out of mind. We'd best hope gnomes from the 5th dimension found this horrible stuff as it would certainly be just ROTTEN if the wrong people got a hold of the deadly chemical. As mentioned about a zillion times to mostly deaf ears: VX nerve gas is the deadliest chemical man has ever produced. It is known as a WMD for the simple reason that it does not go away. It is known as an 'area denial weapon'...that is...once employed...it isn't safe to go into that area. Period. VX has some unique properties such has being resistant to clean up by normal means. No washing it away. It's oily, so rubbing only spreads it around. It clings to exposed surfaces and vaporizes in normal daytime temperatures before condensing out again when it gets cooler. It can be employed on numerous systems such as SCUDs, Katyushas, and artillery. Now let this sink in again... Saddam had about 4500 TONS of the stuff. That tons...not pounds or kilos. A tiny droplet will kill you deader than a bug on the window sill. There is no way it was destroyed by the Iraqis as it takes a special facilities to burn (the Americans keep theirs on Johnston Atoll in the middle of the Pacific in case of spills...it has happened). We never found this VX nerve 'gas'/agent. So where is this stuff?? Gotta wonder... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth? ---Sherlock Holmes to Dr Watson: 'Sign of the Four'

We still don't know exactly where the sailors were. Well...true...WE don't know exactly. We're just forum-citizens. Mostly civilian. But, as you mentioned even, GPS allowed all parties involved to know exactly where they were. The Iranians knew full well what the Brits were up to in the middle of the river mouth (returning from an inspection in small craft). It had been going on for years. Just they picked a time to make a splash in the world-scene. Pay-back for whatever reason you choose. Ahmedinnerjacket was feeling cocky. Who knows... But the Shatt al-arab has had a history of disputes going back to the 1600s when the Ottomans and Persians squabbled over who had dominion of the so-called 'Marsh Arabs' and the mouth of the combined Tigres and Euphrates rivers. Since then the 'line' has moved all over the place. Even to a different river further north in one treaty. Under the British, the line was right down the middle then once it gets to the Gulf, it is almost anyone's guess. Saddam had claimed the entire waterway bank to bank and was one of the causes of the Iran-Iraq War. Once the war ended, Saddam recognized the eastern half of the Shatt al-arab as Iranian. With him gone, the border remains unchanged. Right down the middle of the river. In the mouth of the Shatt al-arab where this happened, the rules re: international waters vs territorial waters are impossibly confusing to say the least. So the 12 mile limit from an agreed baseline for each nation's territorial waters is a poor rule of thumb for a dispute...but that's all there is. Iran has indeed pushed things too far by suddenly finding claim in a pretty much unclaimable area...then conducting what amounts to a kidnapping. Both sides should rightly claim the area of the mouth of the Shatt al-arab as neutral unless they actually want to sit down and set down marker buoys. But since nobody did anything remotely like this prior to Iranians snatching up the Royal Navy I feel Iran is simply crusin' for a brusin'... The 'line' over the years: http://course1.winona.edu/aelafandi/PolSci270/maps.htm Things the Brits find on the Shatt al-arab...mines in this case: http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/images/ops/mines1.jpg Commadore HMS Cornwall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql-QvSK_tUw ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is no sea more dangerous than the ocean of practical politics... ---Thomas Henry Huxley

If these indeed are disputed waters between Iraq and Iran, what business do the British have to take sides in that dispute by implicity endorsing the Iraqi position by treating the waters as Iraqi? Where would you draw the line? Which boat is in who's waters? Shatt al arab River...Google maps. Apparently, repeated UK attempts to get dipomatic access to these sailors...at least one a female if that matters...have failed. Rumors are that they're still in Tehran...but no confirmation. ---------------------------------------------------------- How much of human life is lost in waiting? ---Ralph Waldo Emerson

OH and Stay out of fear DOP!!!! I know I do! My point re: blood pressure is that you always seem on the verge of blowing a head-gasket. Lots of !!!!!!!!!!!!!! and BIG LETTERS. But I do love your little off-colour rants against the establishment. YOU GO KUZADD!!!!!!!!! I bet you wanted to be at Woodstock but were just too young... Yes I read your wee Zbigniew Brzezinski article and I agree for the most part. I always used to like ol' Zbiggy as a kid. Maybe it was just the cool name. Dunno. My main point is that we have folks often refering to the masses as being this or being that...'afraid' from the constant "WAR ON TERROR" we're hit with daily in this case. My response is the same. It is contained in the Lewis Black comedy skit re: Homeland Security which is very very funny and also is 100% the way I feel about the whole affair. My point being that most of us are either immune or fed up. You'll see I don't really "disagree" at all...at least on this. If you haven't watched it yet...grab a coffee sit down and have a laugh and go: "Oh...that's what DOP meant." Stop being so obtuse...we're chums, remember? Lewis Black on Homeland Security: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ngWJDCHHgE ----------------------------------------------------------------- Bipartisanship helps to avoid extremes and imbalances. It causes compromises and accommodations. So let's cooperate. ---Zbigniew Brzezinski