madmax

Hate to break the news to you. Jean Chretian was about 20 years behind the US move into China. Harpers relationship with China, has NO bearing on our ability to maintain US manufacturing in Canada, when US operations wish to move their production to China. We will have no industry left to worry about production exports to China, beyond their need for basic resources. Our relationship with China may have been good, but it was not productive, and if anything help create conditions where we export STEEL to China, and yet miraculously have a finished product coming back, for less money then we can send the raw steel to a production operation 60 minutes away. Its one good reason that hundreds of Machine shops, of all kinds, some found in the barns on farms, have no work. It is another good reason why anyone training in Toolmaking, Machining, and CNC is likely to leave school and join the unemployment line with 10s of thousands of skilled tradesmen who were trained in the 90s recession. Somehow, China is able to find ways to produce goods and dump steel in the US, as well as import steel, cheaper then the our US operations in Canada. Canadas Imports from China are nothing to sneer about. It was to gain access to Chinas Export market that had Canadian Business men drooling. It was to access to Low cost Engineers, Technicians, CNC operators etc, and stable government, that attracted US capital to China to produce goods, to import into Canada. The Concept of Selling to this market from our shores hasn't been the top priority of ANY trade delegation. Any operations selling machinery to China, and I know of many Machinery manufacturers, they sold there equipment to Chinese industries in spite of the Canadian Government and it had more to do with US connections and joint capital operations for new facilities. Now those same pieces of equipment are CLONED, and manufactured in China. Some of the greatest manufacturing games in China is to hide the final product, so that it isn't cloned overnight. Farm out a products parts to numerous companies so that they have no idea the use of the finished product. Thus they can clone a part, but not know its purpose,service or implementation. Trade agreements with China, rarely engage intellectual property enforcement.

1) There are No "Canadian" car companies. 2) US car companies, probably none worse then GM have major bloated Bureacracies, thus I believe they have announced 10,000 White Collar Jobs on the chopping block. With that will go many tech people, engineers, bean counters, design etc. 3) Ford had lowered its wages to $21 entry. 4) Any across the board, wages, benefits and pension concessions will be mimicked by all other Auto Producers in Canada. It happens in Pattern Bargaining, and wherever the chips fall, the Japanese follow suit. 5) You live in KW and yet you have no idea the trouble that Toyota is really in. They are excellent at PR, and have done a better job then the other Auto Manufacturers. 6) Honda, has got rid of all there TEMP AGENCY staff, who made significantly less money then the regular production workers, and they will NOT receive the benefits of Government retraining programs, Adjustment Services or other legislated benefits that Honda employees will receive upon termination. REGARDLESS of how many years of service, some with as many as 7 years. Same for many contract workers. 7) I much prefer a Successful Toyota operation in Woodstock then a Failing Operation of anymake anywhere. 8) Don't be fooled by Auto Manufacturers crying poor. Bankruptcy is a state of mind, and if they wish to use this tool, they will, if they can move forward without it they will. None of which will change the longterm prospects for where there future production will be. It is Toyota with the most recent investment in Auto Production. 9) US Car companies will be using Union and NON Union assembly plants in Mexico and China. 10) Processess and marketing makes car companies successful. The consumer is the final decision maker. Oh, and what about those Union made parts in Toyotas and Hondas..... Never happens.... if you wish to believe that.

Yes, we are seeing Mexico displace Canada in Auto Production. (That happens when Plants are closed here and opened there) China is displacing Canada as the US #1 trading Partner. And China is becoming the Largest Auto Market in the World, moving the US into 2nd fiddle status.

If its made in Canada and Not Union made, your ok with it? That would be roughly 74% of the Industrial Workplaces. I guess our government should ditch those crackberries.

Plastic Water Bottles are made in Canada. The company which holds the contract is a General Machine Shop with CNC.. Plastic Moulding etc. They make the bottles for most of the major brand names in Canada and the US. Ok, its not a "General Machine shop, because it is beautiful, and spotless inside. Your Water is $1.50 now, and the reason you are charged $1.50 is the same reason why some people will pay $3.00 for the SAME water bottle at a community event or in some extreme cases $7.50 at a trade show. The price of bottled water will be whatever the market will bear.

It was briefly glossed over in another thread. But the points are more valid in this thread. Never too late to highlight reality.

Army Guy... Why can the American Military receive quality products from Canadian Manufacturers, but the Canadian Army Cannot??? Many of the most successful manufacturers in Canada make military products. And these enterprises are doing very very very very very well amidst this meltdown. So what gives???

Tasty... MAPLE SYRUP Maple syrup is a sweetener made from the sap of maple trees. In Canada and the United States it is most often eaten with waffles and pancakes. While I prefer to make pancakes. Waffles are made in Canada too You can support Canadian Manufacturing and food processing by buying waffles to put your maple syrup on. Food Manufacturing Waffles More Waffles Vancouver Waffles I used to tap my own trees. It sure seemed like fun as a kid.

Good Point

Bernier will never, ever leave the Federal Gravy train willingly. No cause is more important then the federal trough.

Mover over Bernier..... Harpers Senate Choice has you beat Problematic. Yeah, that's it. Dirty Laundry? Rinse and Spin. I have no idea the purpose of the bolded sentence above. Well now that's cleared up. And as for his two drinking buddies. He instituted a policy of NO drinking on the job. I just read so many lame answers, I have every reason to believe the media is going to follow this guy around and have a field day. Move Over Max Bernier, your bikers and biker chick connections are yesterdays news.

You must not think much of the local LPC MP... Peter Milliken. He was elected in 1988. You voted against him in 1988, 1993, 1997, 2000, 2004, 2006, and after 20 years finally put your X beside his name. 20 years.... What I find very interesting is that you voted for him, in a strategic vote for DION. 20 years of voting against Milliken, but he's ok now

How many times did you vote NDP???

I agree. I am open to ideas on how. I hear that "Coopers" are having a tough time of it I understand the point you are making. However, there aren't alot of blacksmiths in China, South Korea, or Mexico either. Same goes for Coopers. It seems that the Employment that our government hasn't been interested in, is the employment that is lifting up their countries at our expense. To degree, possibly only the shortterm as I have no crystal ball, I don't see this as sustainable. But perhaps I am wrong as two things have happened. Mexico now produces more Cars then Canada. And China now purchases more Cars then the United States. Which nicely leads into your next statement. That you know it is a one way street. Them to us, and them with protected markets. By the time we do have access to their markets, there won't be any value added aspect to our shipments. It will strictly be resources. Much like Canada was to England and France. A supplier of resources.

Toyota, and all the other Autos, receive MONEY from the government. In the last decade, none of that money is tied to Jobs or employment. It is easier to see that the money that went to Toyota resulted in new operations, then it is to see that the "Technology Fund" monies to GM, went into a slush fund. Its not often you see a tech fund of 500million dollars go to an operation, and shortly after signed, 100 engineers are let go, and a new plant announced outside of Canada that is going to replace the current production of a profitable, successful and award winning facility. Governments will shovel money at Auto, and smart ones used to demand jobs for that money. Now it is, "we will save jobs". Save them for what and from what??? That said, you tend to be like most in government, and most of the general public. Auto is manufacturing, and all other forms of manufacturing, you know, the other 13% of the 16% manufacturing base, don't exist. Well that is true, because other forms of manufacturing, having no profile politically, get jack squat. They are often productive, small and innovative. They have had to compete at the highest levels around the Globe and I still dread the day the next round of aquistions comes and picks these jewels off. I personally am not wound up on the focus of Auto. People like to gab about it, and I have spent two stints in Auto Tech and Manufacturing. I wouldn't touch GM in Canada with a 10 foot pole, because there is nothing I have seen from them suggesting that they have had any intention but to shut down Canadian Operations, and would love some government money to help them along. Buy the employees a year or two But really, the bankruptcy laws could likely be enacted, and GM will "restructure" its way out of Ontario. I would like to see Capital secured for companies that are smaller and efficient and are getting squeezed by the lending institutions. Smaller companies have no political power, and the programs designed to "aid" them are set up for "larger" manufacturers that do not exist any longer. The most productive operations are between 30 people and 200 people and it has been this way for nearly 2 decades. Governments don't care about operations of 50 people, or 200 people even if these are $5million to $80 million/year companies. Pumps, Dog Food, Candy, Beef, bullet proof vests, fork lifts, harvesters, trailers, windows, doors, etc and pretty much anything you can think of, that isn't automotive, provides a hell of alot of jobs and some of these companies are in trouble or no trouble at all, but are closing down regardless and the 10,000s of thousands that just lost there jobs in Ontario weren't all Auto related. Auto is just catching up to the exodus. Auto has gotten the attention of government. Something other people laid off or closing have not been able to do. Part of the increased pressure has come from Retail Dealers associations and parts suppliers, all feeling that if Auto Collapses too quickly, they will go perish as well. If there are STrings, GM won't take it. They will go elsewhere to look for and receive money. GM is in the news. We like to forget that GM sold alot of Trucks and SUVs at top dollar and made huge profits off these sales. They didn't make all these products because they were stupid, they made them, because these products made GM a hell of alot of money. It is the same reason that everyone else maded these products. It wasn't fuel prices that brought these products into question. 1) GM planned to continue to build these profitable products elsewhere. Thus when we hear of an operation closing, that made these products, we think, oh they must be a turkey. That is not the case. They knew that they could make alot more money in relocating the assembly. In the meantime, the US started into a financial, and housing crises, and to which began the head of a recession. Big ticket items are the first to be put off, and this would affect GM greater then any other producer. Just to highlight the problem, there was a SHORT blip in fuel prices. The damage to GM was already in the works, but people choose to believe it was because of Gas Prices, it wasn't. Had there been long term high fuel costs, there could be merit to the argument. But having travelled through the US, fuel prices are considerably lower then here, and the SUVs on the roads were abundent during the period of high fuel prices. Today fuel in the US is pretty dam low. So, why should we give GM money??? I haven't heard a good case from them yet 129,000 jobs isn't a "sad" story about us "caring about these people. It is a nightmarish statistic, completely unnoticed by these all knowing economists. The same idiot economists who missed the US financial meltdown, and a year on, missed the stock market collapse. The same economists that believe its better to produce value added jobs offshore, and we warehouse them. Like I said, 5 major retail chains closed with 30 to 200 employees in each. This is no longer about just manufacturing. The exodus of manufacturing from Ontario from 2005 onward, particularly in 06 and 07 helped create alot of the downturn in consumer spending. I recall talking to realator association last year. Housing sales were remarkably strong, infact, they had been having a run of banner years inspite of all the manufacturers that were leaving the region. I recall them saying that they didn't know when there wave would run out, and that it kept surprising them that housing sales continued to climb and so did the prices. My former Mechanical Engineer, former Bruce Nuclear, Former Ford Windsor, former... well, I couldn't tell you how many places he helped downsize, finally took the call to Real Estate. A person who always manages to find the next ticket to success, is now moving out of real estate. Its starting to hit home fast, and he seems to be good at knowing when to get off the ship. Like I mentioned earlier. This is the prelude. The 129,000 figure is significantly greater then anything previously recorded. It is too early to tell what this will mean compared to other downturns. But I do know that many of those closures, the announced ones, haven't happened yet. Many closures never hit the papers, so when these large closures dates come forward, rest assured there were be 7 or more jobs lost for each one you read in the paper.

You are correct. It isn't sustainable, however, the companies will survive. We are addressing those who lose their employment based upon boardroom decisions, where Canadian operations managers, plant managers, bean counters have no say, and only follow directives. The market works insofar as those working in retail find themselves unemployed when consumption declines, or competition and supply of retail goods exceeds demand. Lower prices perhaps, such as 70% off before christmas, then followed by closures of retail outlets. The market is affected by variables. One of those variables that exists is the closure of profitable operations. This has an effect on not only the market but the Labour market and EI figures. It's one problem among many. It is one problem that hurts our economy. I sat in a boardroom meeting one fine spring day. The New American owners had a great plan. "We are going to F*$K"... and the went on to list all the local CDN suppliers.The plan was simple. The intent was to move the production to another location and use the cash cow (flow) of the Cdn operation to pay suppliers in the US. Do not pay CDN suppliers, move the CDN operation into bankruptcy. Part of doing this is to have the CDN operation do work for the foreign operation with the payment made to the US. It doesn't take very long to bankrupt a company. Buyout the leases on the important newer high tech equipment, and put leases on ones that were paid for so that you don't have to compete or pay for the equipment in bankruptcy auction. Create your own leasing company to do this. At the bankruptcy prevent the competition from aquiring the equipment or the information that the contracts of the operation where involved in price fixing to purposefully direct new contracts outside of Canada, make certain that the leasing company, which you own, will not lease to the "new operation" should a buyer appear. What we here might consider "fraud", is simply business. Or lets say, the "Market" in action. Not yet, from my current data. I don't believe it is significant, but I am not surprised to find newly trained health care personel not finding employment in their fields in Ontario. I don't believe in propping up a failing business. I believe in investigating the conditions that are behind those "failures". The government is so far behind what needs to be done, that I doubt anything will happen, beyond them throwing money around at every turn, hoping and praying it was enough for them to get elected next time around. My problem is watching the list of companies aquired in the last 3 years in my area , with long histories, and weathering every boom and bust with never a dollar from the government, become aquired and then shut down. They were closing operations long before any "downturn" or recession. These companies would remain as viable enterprises if not aquired, and would continue to be leaders in technology and processes. The government has talked down on manufacturing for decades pulling the machines shops out of school, making trades unattractive and renaming shop classes to whatever the current "Trend" is. I don't hold my breath. The government doesn't believe in manufacturing, especially when those corporations with operations here are at the door wanting laws to build in China/South Korea etc. and have direct access to the North American consumer.

And CHCH is on the rocks.

I found this quote ironic since its coming from kengs333 who is currently banned.

Whoa there little doggy. A bureacratic style of writing like "NO OTHER HERE" ? You top the list Mr. Public Sector Bureacrat.

Now I get it. Michael, I am a product of that same era in the 1990s. Perhaps that is why I get really pissed when governments talk "technology". So, I moved on from Asia Mania of the 90s, but I still felt young then . I have changed "Careers" many times. Not just "JOBS". I know what happened industrially in the 90s with NAFTA as well. The low end jobs left, lower paying and higher labour intensive where transplanted. But NOBODY, you are correct, NOBODY said BOO about those high paying jobs lost from the tech era lost in the 90s. I now understand where you are coming from. I can only say that, all job losses are and have been ignored by government. I choose not to keep my mouth shut, any longer, even though I am making my living off all of many of these bankruptcies and closures, what is happening is not good. Those in BC forestry, say, hey, where were you when we hurting. Each sector barely is able to make a pitch and get heard. For those in industry, many people don't lift a finger until they are out the door. Because many people cannot understand how their profitable operations could be scheduled for closure. Other people do not recognise the fiscal peril their operations are in, or the conditions that have put the operation in that peril. There is a reason why there was no response to the loss of high paying tech jobs. "Why support a failing under performing sector... move on" Been there done that.

I fear your prediction is going to be very very accurate, however, once they realize that the potential of them getting hired after "retraining" and them being "older" is taken into account, it is unlikely they will remain in the job market for long as many people over 55 are screened by temp agencies, and thus fall off the unemployment books, because EI runs out and they won't have made it passed the parasites. Some agencies are now screening out those above 45. Of course they never admit this

When an operation purchases a viable and profitable operation in order to get , contracts, technology, market share or eliminate a competitor, there is a possibility and one that is very great, that the profitable operation will be terminated. When you speak of failing businesses.... their is a domino effect when smaller Canadian Operations are aquired by larger operations and closed. If a supplier in a local region loses his customers then the supplier closes operations or downsizes. Many of the companies that closed their operations in 2006/07 were not failing operations. But the people affected by the decision to close those operations are unemployed nonetheless. Many of those new purposes, are well trained people with many skillsets and now with major downsizing occurring across many employment sectors, it is no surprise I see medically trained people working in a warehouse. You can ignore the figures this month of 129,000 job losses. Don't forget that profitable companies that want to remain here, and haven't been scooped up in predatory practices, still have to downsize to meet the demand in order to stay profitable. Mr. Hardner, to put it mildly the shit is hitting the fan.

I just received a phone call last night from a polling firm.. why can't I remember which one... and one of the MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY topics was ONLINE VOTING. There were just 2 questions on it, which is unusual, because the other topics kept coming back with the same, similar or progressive questions as you answered them. And they had multiple levels of support 1 through 5 agree to disagree. However the TWO questions on Online voting were something like this.... 1) Should individuals be able the INTERNET be used to update voter information with Elections Canada? Yes or NO 2) Should voters be allowed to cast their ballots over the internet? Yes or NO When I answered that question, the poller broke up afterwards.....

I liked the rest of the article, but I don't pay attention to national polls that cover Quebec. The Crop polls appear to be the most accurate.

Maybe. Most likely both parties saw no future benefit in the litigation and exposure.