Higgly

Thanks for asking: Avi Shlaim; The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World; W.W. Norton. And... New York Times Editor's Choice Best Book.... Tom Segev; One Palestine Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate; Henry Holt LLC Finally, a guy who had the balls to live through it and bring it all home.... Robert Fisk; Pity the Nation: The Abduction of Lebanon; Thunder's Mouth Press. Read Segev first. Then Shlaim, and finally Fisk.

Dick Cheney has just finished a visit to Saudi Arbia. While he was there, CNN was interviewing the King of Jordan. A short history of the Hashemite Kingdom... When Chaim Weitzman was trying to find a place for the Jews in the Middle East, he travelled to Aqaba and from there by camel into the desert to meet Abdullah, who was later to become the Hashemite King of Jordan. He promised Abdullah that the Arabs of Palestine would be protected and asked for his blessing for the Jews in Palestine. Abdullah agreed to this and gave him welcome. In fact, he sent guides across the desert to bring the lost European to his tents. Do not underestimate the significance. This was the most important signal a desert king could give to a Eurpoean. He would have done no less for Lawrence. Fast forward to the eve of the Israeli war of indepence in 1948. The Zionists, and most particularly David Ben Gurion, fearing for their future, sent Golda Meir to talk to Abdullah and to ask that Abdullah not attack Israel (as defined by the UN partition boundairs). Abdullah agreed to do this. The war started and Israel invaded territory held by Jordan and drove Palestinian refugees across the borders of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. Jordan kept its promise and did not invade the territory assigned to Israel by the UN partition agreement. This isolated Jordan from the Arab League and has caused them great grief ever since. After the war was over, there were border skirmishes. In one case, a group of Palestinian Arab terrorists, embittered by the loss of their homes, infiltrated Israel across the Jordanian border and killed a women and her two children. In response, Israel sent Ariel Sharon and a platoon of Israeli fighters to a village near where the Plaestinians had crossed. Sharon murdered the entire village. Shortly after that, a herd of Israeli sheep wandred across the border into Jordan. Moshe Dayan advocated a mission to send Sharon back into Jordan. Fortunately, the UN found the sheep and returned them to Israel. This was referred to by the UN as the 'Bo Peep' incident, but there are probably a number of Jordanians who are still alive today because of this action by the UN. In the end, Jordan was the first to sign a peace treaty with Israel. In spite of comments on these boards to the contrary, it has been the most willing to give a home to Palestinian refugees victimized by the birth of the state of Isarel. Jordan is Israel's best bet as a peace partner, but it is not going to be easy. Neither for Israel, nor for Jordan. And please, can we get that idiot Cheney out of the picture?

For sure. They were right there with the Philistines. Well what the hell. Why don't we just all just go back to the code of Hammurabai? Or Tuthankamon? Adam and Eve? The Big Bang? O jeez. Fast forwarding here... The Queen for a Day argument. Ok, movning on... Are you familiar with the term 'Protestant'? Truly a blot on human nature. Are you familiar with what Joseph Stalin did to the Ukrainians in 1932? Absolutely. I think that a Jewish state is essential to the survivial of the Jews. But what can we do about the poeple who used to live there? Midgets? Hell, Pol Pot was feeding everybody to the lions. I have seen the goddamned skulls! Have you? jbg, you are in sad shape indeed if you are using Cambodia to defend Israel. Rue, can you please talk to this guy?

American internal politics? Oh wait. There is no group for that. Maybe because this is Canadian discussion forum? Just a guess. Your respect for me shrinks with every post....

Ignatieff. I'm no Harper fan, but I have yet to see what the alternatives might be.

That is not the point, Rue. The point is that they have no jurisdiction and that they are recused on the grounds of conflict of interest. Well fine Rue. Take this up with Peace Now, then. The principle of occupying land for self-defence only applies until the threat is mitigated. It does not give anyone permission to build major permanent civilian population centres. I'm with you there and I have to say that I was quite disappointed to see reports that the Palestinians had fired more rockets today. Olmert's restraint is admirable, and I say this not having a lot of respect for Olmert.

I have the greatest respect for Canadians actually. I'm fast losing my respect for you. The sooner the better, jbg. If we didn't have a Supreme Court, we would have a monolithic form of government, which is the most vulnerable in times of crisis and to abuse by a majority party. Thank heavens for the Supreme Court, I say.

Ignatieff took a Quebec voter issue that was drifting away from sovereignty and tilted it all in the other direction. Harper had to match him to get votes in Quebec. An academic who has spent the last 30 or so years living somewhere else is messing with our country. Where are my tar and feathers? Send this clown packing.

That's nothing. US-based corporations are the main source of guns being used on Canadian Streets. The US must clean house!

I'm with you there. Some form of direct democracy where citizens get to discuss and vote on legislation should be seriously looked into.

Sure. That's we have these political forums, right?

You forget that I started this thread by quoting an Israeli organization. The reason that is is called International Law is that it needs more than the legal opinion of those whose interests are being served. That is not an anti-Israeli or anti-American position, it is just common sense. Not surprisingly, both the US and Israel refuse to recognize the World Court.

I agree with the Mallick article. Canada made a commitment to a process which was international in scope. Now we are back to every man for himself. It is interesting to note that Harper's language in this has matched George Bush phrase for phrase over time. Instead of 'global warming', we now have 'climate change' - a Bush innovation.

Certainly one could never accuse an Israeli Supreme Court justice of having any sort of bias in a land dispute of this type . On the other hand, there was in fact an ousted sovereign authority - the Turks, who were ousted by the Brits. The Brits recognized the land titles issued by the Turks. The Geneva Conventions explicitly state that occupying powers must honour the land registry and must not transfer their own citizens to the occupied land. It is not Israel that gets to decide whether the Geneva Conventions apply. This is a matter of international law that can only be resolved in an international court. Otherwise, what is the point of having international law? Israel's refusal to recignize and abide by the Geneva Convetions makes it a rogue state that needs to be brought into line with the rest of the world. The same can be said of its continued refusal to enter into a Nuclear non-proliferation treaty. Yeah, Kashmir's a real good example. What you fail to grasp Rue, is that the land registry transcends occupations. A country can be occupied and re-occupied many times, but the people who hold title to the land still have those titles and the law says that those titles must be recognized. Which is why Palestinians so often see Israel seizing land for 'security reasons' only then to see an Israeli settlement pop up on their seized property. This is just plain bureaucratic thuggery that shows Israel is well aware of the fact that it is violating international law and is trying to get around it with legal hocus-pocus. Hmmm. A pro-Israeli statement coming from a Jewish-American State Department official. Now there's a shocker. When they signed a peace treaty, I guess that all ended, didn't it? In any case, Rue, you continue to ignore the central precept of the Geneva Convention which clearly says the land registry transcends and survives these sorts of circumstances. This is why Israel passed the abandonment laws on 1950 which illegally confiscated lands from the owners it had forcefully driven off of the land and then refused to allow back into the country. Having seen he broad acceptance of the 1949 Geneva Conventions, it knew it had no legal basis for what it was about to do and had to drum one up out of whole cloth. The rest of your post is simply a square dance around this central point. The only authorities you are able to quote who reject that are either Israelis or Americans, and both are self-serving in the extreme.

Here's a Feb 2005 BBC report giving the death tolls for the 2000-2005 Intifada. These numbers were compiled by B'tselem, an Israeli human rights group. Palestinians killed by Israelis... 3135 killed by security forces in the West Bank and Gaza 54 killed by security forces inside Israel 34 killed by Israeli citizens in the West Bank and Gaza The report states that there are no figures to show what proportion are civilians as opposed to combatants. Israelis killed by Palestinians... 431 civilians killed in Israel 218 civilians killed in the West Bank and Gaza Strip 218 Israeli security forces killed in West Bank and Gaza 83 Israeli security forces killed in Israel Palestinians killed by Palestinians... 101 killed by Palestinian civilians on suspicion of collaborating 29 killed by members of the Palestinian security forces (for September 2000 to September 2004) 3 Palestinians killed by gunfire from Palestinians shooting at Israeli civilians (for September 2000 to Septemebr 2004) 2 Palestinian security forces killed by Palestinians attacking Israeli soldiers (for September 2000 to September 2004) Do I believe that these numbers are 100% correct? No. I doubt it is possible to be 100% correct. But they sure are a lot different than the IDF/Mossad numbers you are proposing, Rue.

Hey that's nothing. There are people on this forum advocating the use of nuclear weapons against the Arabs. And they're not even Imams! Of course it takes a lot more courage to kill from the seat of a helicopter gunship.... What people like yourself frequently overlook is that these statements coming out of the Arab world are spoken in a particular context. For example, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's anti-Israeli rants came after Israel announced that it was thinking of bombing the Iranian nuclear facilties like it had done with Iraq some years back. I'll bet that went over big in Tehran. Of course and then we have guys like Netenyahu advocating "regime change" in Iraq, and guess what? His buddy Wolfowitz finally talked George Bush into doing it. How many friends do you think that made in the Arab world?

Hmmm... I thought you weren't going to debate me any more. As usual, Rue you rant and play the anti-semite card instead of addressing my point - that Israel continues to kill and in so doing is ratcheting up the Palestinian death toll. This of course does not include the number of Palestinian deaths due to high infant mortality, disease morbidity, and shortened life span. Did you see my post describing how 40% of Israeli settlements (including over 80% of Ma'ale Adumim) have been built on land belonging to Palestinians? Aren't you the one who told us that all the land in Israel was bought from unscrupulous greedy Arabs? Credibility indeed.

This one is going to have an interesting trip through the Supreme Court. It flies in the face of one of the fundamental principles of our legal system: innocent until proven guilty.

I disagree. This is a matter of public policy and these people are being given tax breaks. There is too much room for shenanigans if their identities are kept hidden.

This is the problem with Perestroika. Deng Xiao Peng had it right. Economic freedom before political freedom. I believe he may prove to be one of the greatest leaders of all time.

So you get my point.

Heh heh. The white flag of condescension.

... like Canada was 50 years ago.

Well scriblett, this is just so delicious, since 'à propos' is a French expression, and you have spelled it wrong. I see. And where does he stand in the Liberal leadership poll? Cheap Thrills. What the hell did you expect? Of course, this is a guy we have all come to know and respect. Our greenest Primer Minister. What's the latest word on the GST, scriblett? Heh, heh.

Let's see. Isn't canada.com a National Post channel? Just curious. Charged with leading the party's renewal process? By whom? Leonard Asper? They haven't even got a leader at the moment.