trex

the war of hearts and minds may already be lost. if not, it wont be long, unless we change tactics. the fact that a soldier can panic and just shoot anyone in the vicinity is certainly nothing new. the military can only cover it up, or offer the family US $2500 dollars as a tragic "compensation" payment. it may not be news to some, but it still mustn't be ignored. the fact that it was not even canadians, does not matter. We are part of the coalition, we come to "fight", not rebuild. we cannot rebuild, they wont let it happen. and now they will never be eliminated, because for every person killed by colateral damage, it inspires a dozen to become taliban supporters in revenge. the vicious cycle when rome fell, it was in part because of the inability of the military to adopt to the methods of the barbarians, all they could do was be a disciplined army and stomp on whole peoples and villages. when the enemy looks like just anybody, you start to kill just anybody.

ok, #3 was in response to a post that wants to ridicule people from other culture as stupid, and flips off the impact of war as a mere joke. in other words, sniper wants to be funny for his college friends. but no serious harm done. # 11, i see no problem there talking to shavluk. i see personal attacks rampant. i'd much rather discuss thetopic material. a little light heartedness is fine but anyone who attacks me, will get attacked in kind. i'm sure you can understand that. show me where i am rude to someone who is not, first, personally rude to me. #14 i am attacked as "mockingly writing this way" in reference to my comment mein freunds, and called a communist ideology. I did not insult this person implicitly. when i say "the likes of you", i mean, people who want to change the subject, or put words in my mouth. i am told that i should not post. i am told to go smoke a doobie, again a personal attack that is irrelevant to the post. #30, whats the problem- QUOTE(Army Guy @ Sep 27 2007, 08:06 AM) "Tbud: Is this how you debate, you throw a topic out there and we have to pull the your postion out of you... This is a new concept ?" what topic, what debate... you really think i will change your mind, or you mine... such arguments are a waste of time and bandwidth "Sounds like the history of mankind, is that your only bitch..." therefore you agree and you dont mind seeing soldiers and civilians perish for said reasons. so no debate there... but for your obvious indifference and possibly even support of continued injustice "... the history of mankind, is that your only bitch?" in other words, so what. thats cold bro. real cold. i see no problem in my response. you know you are fighting for the rich people. i hope you are doijng good things but if you are told to do the bad things, you have to do them. lets hope you dnt come back as traumatized, as the us soldiers in iraq. killing anonymous persons for the state canhave the effect, but only if you have a conscience. i will not back down from any cyber-bullying, right from the get go. ok, can we continue aside from the noise, shock and awe. and no i do not wish to inspire "awe", but if you respectfully communicate to me, i have no problem with you. otherwise, we will have a problem. and now that we have established that fact, we can move on. ---------------------- "laws set out in the genva convention, and inter national law as well, " interesting point which is mostly theoretical. I can also disagree with my employer when they do something unethical, and expect some kind of "whistle-blower" protection. but reality is, employers have long memories, and powerful friends. and today, the laws of geneva convention are rendered obsolete, as accomplished by our friends the us administration who have broken the rules but proved that empire establishes what is right, not common law. when its fit to break the law and ignore it, empire does so. and all the good citizens simply close their eyes, and wave their flags. so unfortunately today, we have some real big problems here. including the unlawful detentions and interrogation. of course, its not canada directly but consider what it means n the eyes of people around the worls, who see canada and us are joined at the hip. where the dog goes the tail must follow. "Much like we did in the second world war. and different results are achievable " to make that comparison, is utterly unfair as we are not under a threat, afghanis are not invading anyone else. YES their regime under taliban is brutal. YES we must do something to help them. But we are walking such a fine line here with this intervention, knowing the methods of guerilla warfare they will resort to, put their own people in the fire to win the psychological war. that the people are beginning to hate us now is evidence of this, and IS THE MAIN REASON I CREATED THIS THREAD. Canadians should know what the people think of us. EVEN THOUGH in this case it was not canadian troops, apparently but we are talking about psychological warfare, not truth some may call it trivial, scant evidence but there are other indicators as well. unfortunately since all people want to do is be silly, this hasn't been discussed further "history is full of examples of meek and peaceable, lets talk first countries, most where crushed under someones boots. I don't condone aggresive military actions, but everyone must be willing to fight for what the enjoy" i agree in principle because, extremists have their own agenda. but there are many ways to avoid a direct fight besides simply rolling over and taking it. i dont consider myself "meek". peaceable yes but not "meek". i use my intelligence to avoid violence, but when necessary do what i must to survive. secondly any rush to war must be questioned, and the effectiveness of the war must always be questioned, because in war its the smallest and most vulnerable who are forgotten. we dont want the wheels of war to run over people indiscriminantly. no one keeps statistics of the innocent dead in a war. dead men tell no tales "Come on this is Canada not mother Russia. " never mind russia. the united states has been in a state of near perpetual war, military action non-stop since the 1950s. Its possible that more people have been killed by the us military and its appendages since WWII, than any other country. including russia. and i for one would really hate to see canada join the military-industrial complex that feeds their economy. that is not our way, but becoming so more and more it seems. and now this pro-us government including the liberals before harper, all backed by big business and their demands. 14 billion dollar surplus every year goes to the banks, not to feed poor children in this country which are growing in population since 1990, not decreasing. but we ignore those things, we dont usually get to hear about those things. who we elect dont matter, the agenda continues, removal of the social safety net for the benefit of insurance companies, etc. thats what im talkin about. the corporation has the same rights as any citizen, more perhaps, but they never die. if a citizen is a problem, its only a matter of time.

i am sorry you are so out of touch with certain facts. every point you made about empire applies to the united states today. they use local talent to rule, but they call the shots. the wealth and riches of other lands will be used to increase their wealth. in some cases it is done directly, militarily. in others, by poltical and economic means. the british colonized the world, "thank god". lets ask the people of india about it. lets ask native canadians about it. lets ask africans, black americans of slave descent, about it. even afghanistan in the 1800's. thank your god for your information afghanistan is strategically critical to the region and oil companies like Dick Cheneys haliburton have drawn up plans for "investment" in a major oil pipeline. if you have read paul wolfowitz blueprint for an american century you would know this, but you probably have not.

you see you are just thinking in black and white, as is in vogue these days, stylish "your either with us, or your with the terrorists" is the modern mantra today. it may shock someones conscience to find out what they have been led to believe is a lie. in that case, anyone who is in the military and wants to continue without too much mental stress should stay quiet, not read the news or web sites. you may hear things you dont like to hear. and i am sorry for those who choose to give their life to the state, without question. but my way is in their defence, i fight for them, that they do nbot give their life frivolously for the sake of big business. someone should make sure, any soldier dies for his country, it was for a worthwhile cause. not a public that just nodding and braying like donkeys to believe anything what we are told, but to question, for the benefit of those whi WILL die, why it is necessary. and when i hear a cock-and-bull story that affects so many people, i have the right to ask the hard question so it is people like you, perhaps, that endangers the troops who are vulnerable, by their absolute sense of duty. if the wrong person is in power, or make the wrong dicision, they die anyway. who else will speak for them, who will say "it is not necessary for them to die for this"? perhaps not you -------------------- "what ever gave you the thought that you have a right to sayt he things about any of this, when it is obvious that you have no idea about what it is all about in the first place." you see these are the unnecessary comments that make you seem like a pompous ass. just cut it out. anyone should have the right to speak out against the war. "refrain from posting until you can show real proof of all the ings you claim." what claim, what proof. its a news article. try reading all the news, not just the stuff that makes you feel safe and comfortable. open your heart, old person, or is it rusted shut from years of bitterness. i amdefending the humanity, not big business who now runs our show. i am defending the kids, the young people who are easily fooled into believing what the corporate mouthpiece tell them. i am defending the troops, from abuse by powerful manipulative corporations and government in bed.

your observations are correct, but your conclusion is faulty. imo... the people have been victimized for over 100 years by different empires whose only interest is controlling the region for purposes of power. those people are like you and me, powerless. they cannot help themselves under the control of these warlords, some of whom are armed by our western governments. if we want to marginalize the extremists, we are going about it completely the wrong way. by taking them on militarily, in their own lands they ultimately resort to guerilla tactics and terrorism, using the local people as human shields to infuriate the general public against the west. because, to put it simply, what they have in the immediate now is far worse than before, under a repressive regime yes but not at risk of being killed from either side. any idea that this is all wirth it for "the future" is totally abstract to them. so we are trying to put out the fire by pouring gasoline, we give them an argument against us, as a weapon. the youth will want to fight back against what is seen as illegal invaders, occupiers, not helpers. even with the best of intentions, the enemy uses propaganda and heartless killing of their own in order to make us appear the bad guy. and once they hate us, we cannot win

i agree but i think you missed the point. there are some roads you can go down, which you cant come back again, and war is such a thing. irreversable error. once begun, all these things are just the natural consequences. but to step back from the immediate, horrific nature of the war and consider, the necessity of the mission. what was the intended outcome. was every option exhausted before rushing to war? was anything else even attempted before rushing to war. or was it a reaction to appease the angry american government, mad at us for opting out of their war in iraq? "Of course the peaceniks lament from the saftey of their puter chairs, the only thing that is dangerous in their lives is crossing the road to attend a peace rally. It's easy to lament when you give nothing back to your country but protest marches and banners." those are also important things for people to do to keep the leaders honest. all is not as black and white as they explain to us. the reason for the war has changed a few times now, and they are beginning to make noises about continuing beyond the end of the current "operations". learn what the real definition of fascism is then you'll understand, do not trust government in bed with the corporations. "corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.” – Abraham Lincoln today democracy is only about choosing one of the preferred CEO if a people chooses a different path than that which is intended by empire, their democracy is null and void.

26th September 2007 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...ticle_id=484162 Saddam Hussein offered to step down and go into exile one month before the invasion of Iraq, it was claimed last night. Fearing defeat, Saddam was prepared to go peacefully in return for £500million ($1billion). The extraordinary offer was revealed yesterday in a transcript of talks in February 2003 between George Bush and the then Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar at the President's Texas ranch. The White House refused to comment on the report last night. But, if verified, it is certain to raise questions in Washington and London over whether the costly four-year war could have been averted. Only yesterday, the Bush administration asked Congress for another £100billion to finance the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. The total war bill for British taxpayers is expected to reach £7billion by next year. More than 3,800 American service personnel have lost their lives in Iraq, along with 170 Britons and tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians. However, according to the tapes, one month before he launched the invasion Mr Bush appeared convinced that Saddam was serious about going into exile. "The Eqyptians are speaking to Saddam Hussein," said Mr Bush. "It seems he's indicated he would be prepared to go into exile if he's allowed to take $1billion and all the information he wants about weapons of mass destruction." Asked by the Spanish premier whether Saddam - who was executed in December last year - could really leave, the President replied: "Yes, that possibility exists. Or he might even be assassinated." But he added that whatever happened: "We'll be in Baghdad by the end of March." Mr Bush went on to refer optimistically to the rebuilding or Iraq. The transcript - which was published yesterday in the Spanish newspaper El Pais - was said to have been recorded by a diplomat at the meeting in Crawford, Texas, on February 22, 2003. Mr Bush was dismissive of the then French President Jacques Chirac, saying he "thinks he's Mr Arab". Referring to his relationship with Downing Street, he said: "I don't mind being the bad cop if Blair is the good cop." The President added: "Saddam won't change and he'll keep on playing games. "The time has come to get rid of him. That's the way it is." Days before the invasion began on March 22, 2003, the United Arab Emirates proposed to a summit of Arab leaders that Saddam and his henchmen should go into exile. It was the first time the plan had been officially voiced but it was drowned out in the drumbeat of war. A spokesman for Mr Aznar's foundation had no comment on its authenticity. ------------------------- if this is true we will hear some interesting comments from the spin-machine. lap dogs, sit up and bark

see here is another one

are you having an issue with numbers today? i see you have 4504 posts. i hope at least some of them are better than that one. or, cheese. or, west side story, as much as i admire leonard bernstein. but the real joke, is people like you. ---- see how easy it is for me to get one more? its that simple. why does it even matter to you

yes, i came here today to piss in your cornflakes

"our forum" let me tell you something, i know what kind of snakes are in these forums. i can read, johnny. and any loud mouth college brat who thinks war is funny, or people of different culture are all fools, deserves whats coming to them. serious debate? you people are a joke still waiting, mr. ambassador

->I think you'll find most on this board very open minded and willing to learn from both sides of the argument. then perhaps i have not met them yet... ->You have no idea what my thoughts are ,nor do you care. your right and i'm wrong period. Do you actually think that the cape and tights are going to change the way man has acted for thousands of years. well by your glib acceptance of status quo with the empire, and being an "army guy" its pretty simple to connect the dots here. i am totally against the concept of blindly following orders of the "commander". because i know the commander is just another dumb shit too, and after thousands of years of making the same mistakes over and over again, the next generation is ready to follow the leaders orders, which are given from the back of the line. you know what insanity is, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. the war in afghan fits this description so i prefer to be outside the box, to ask for a different solution than the same old tired methods and with todays mechanized warfare, global economy and multinationals, its a different game, worse. who protects the rights of the citizens? no one. certainly not the troops, lets get over the illusion as you yourself just admitted, they work for empire and empire alone. now what do you have to say, besides trying to make me look silly with the continued cape references? not much besides asking me for my 'credentials'? not much i mean about the topic, since you have such a need to debate, to justify in your mind whats being done amongst my comments i do throw out somel ideas about what i think is really going on i have heard nothing useful yet from you, besides ridicule and tainted questions still waiting for those reasonable, open minded people who can discuss both sides, mr ambassador

i see, those who hate war are the violent and angry ones, those who allow war are not. war is peace... congratulations you seem well indoctrinated. i am not angry, by far... whats to be angry? as for not contributing anything of value to this subject, you have also done well in that, old_bold&cold. i havent heard much reasonable debate, few comments that are on the topic or not purely intended to defame my character, unknown as it may be. but that is to be expected. as is my defense against personal attacks ->"we" have seen his type before yes you are well indoctrinated. if you think i will join the group and fit in you are out of your head. respond to me in a reasonable way, on the topic and i will be more than happy to do likewise.

what topic, what debate... you really think i will change your mind, or you mine... such arguments are a waste of time and bandwidth "Sounds like the history of mankind, is that your only bitch..." therefore you agree and you dont mind seeing soldiers and civilians perish for said reasons. so no debate there... but for your obvious indifference and possibly even support of continued injustice

seems you are blowing the smoke here, not me, try to obfuscate the truth with your sad attempt at ridicule. you must have a very small head to fit so well up your ass

war is not a dirty thing, war is an insane thing. and we the general public have had a veil pulled over our eyes. so while we yawn and stretch and have a nice morning, we should also know about what our representatives are doing in afghanistan... and not just the sun-shiney stories issued from the DOD, or by some career minded generals. there are many ways to solve a problem... 9 billion dollars and counting can buy a lot of hearts and minds, or it can make certain corporations very wealthy at the expense of the powerless... so while we enjoy our mass-media marketed products and news, someone should try to wake the public to the ugly reality of war, which is, fear terror, and violence. those that our leaders shrug off as mere co-lateral damage, cry out from their graves to be answered, for justice. but they are all canon fodder, grease for the treads of our tanks, while politicians and business men shake hands and count their coins i bet mr. harper had a nice comfortable lunch yesterday, he smiled for the camera a few times

taliban? lets ask the dead civilians what they think

I saw everything," said Reuters correspondent Noor Mohammad Sherzai. "I saw the suicide bomb attack ... I saw the fire brigade vehicle rushing to the area at top speed, somehow its brakes failed and hit one police vehicle and coalition vehicles, then the Americans started firing at the people and everyone lay flat on the ground and then fled the area." Sherzai said a number of people had been wounded in the attack, but he did not know how many. "I ran away to save my own life." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21003513/ ----------------- there is your liberty

i know for fact the afghani been under war from western empires since at least 1850, non stop war and occupation. of course im not a fan of the military or our "operations". nice clean word superpowers fought the cold war, cia funneled millions of dollars and weapons there poor people caught in the middle as the arrogant powers fight for the wealth of the elite i seek no "friends" among the arrogant, or those who ridicule for the sake of a joke, while innocent people die elsewhere. now go back to marching up and down the square

i am not mockingly writing this way, i am of german descent for your information and can write any way i want. especially in this cess pool of a forum, amongst the likes of people like you. and as to my views on the germans, or adolph hitler, i will keep that to myself

the real defeated one was great britain, but that is all besides the point

yes mr. shav, it is me! i know, its a pit of snakes in forums like this and there is no victory, on any side, but its all just silly noise. propaganda thanks for compliment peace, tb

yeah. i guess that makes him "special" to you

pissing off villagers?? you can follow anyone off a cliff if you want to. you think its all a big joke, right. funny. college boy. go back to your books, beer and tities leave real politics to the adults

Hey John! sounds great man, good luck