saga

American blacks demanded to be treated as equals. Aborginals are demanding that they be given DNA based rights that no other person is allowed to have. There is no comparison. ...blah blah blah Riv ... earn your money ... or is that my money ... Indigenous people are asking only equality too ... recognition as ... hello! ... nations with whom Canada has legal treaties ... that it now needs to honour. You mean rights that no other Canadian is allowed to have ... but you see they are not Canadians, according to the treaties, but sovereign nations. Are our agreemenst with China, Japan, etc. RACE BASED ... NO ... they are agreements with sovereign nations of another race. Big deal. You have overplayed the race card Riv. Your purpose here on this discussion board is to fuel racism among Canadians to support federal government denial of treaty rights. Your purpose is continued genocide. Your purpose STINKS! ... but it is a living I suppose ...

None of the things that the Canadian gov't has done come close to that definition. Assimilation is not genocide - in fact the overwhelming majority of countries in the world have assimilation as a national policy. Canada with it policies on multi-culturalism today is one of the few countries that does not pressure minority groups to assimilate. Canada most definitely has committed genocide. The removal of children from their homes ... see -e- ... and systematic abuse of children to destroy their culture (needles through their tongues if they spoke their own language) under government policy, mandate and supervision. In 1907, a government commissioned report indicated 50% death rate in the residential schools ... and was quickly squashed. In 1922 the government chose to proceed with ... the final solution... continued destruction of Indigenous people through the residential school system. In 1924 traditional religion and governance was criminalized ... and at Six Nations when the RCMP arrived to violently break up the Haudenosaunee Confederacy Council, they also stole the treaty documents nand wampum belts ... evidence of intention to destroy the people rather than honour the legal treaties. The facts of Canadas actions to destroy Indigenous people are horrific. I really do not care what other countries did ... I want Canadan to step up and own its actions ... like any decent person is expected to do ... and honour the agreements we made with our allies. There is no other way to live in peace with our neighbours. If they are treated respectfully through the land claims processes, we will gain a stronger more mature country. If they are disrespected ... again ... Canada consigns itself to the rubbish bin of greed and ongoing strife. You cannot deal effectively with them with the tactics you use here to intimidate people, Riv. Apartheid ... race based rights ... crapola ... They were sovereign nations that we made treaties with ... and then we stabbed them in the back. The treaties were never abolished, rescinded or otherwise legally vacated. That says something ... All else is just whining and excuse making ... or attempt to again force them into submission. Better get over that idea ... They will force Canada into submission without arms ... just by standing on their land. In that regard ... I would like to address the MYTH that there is a way for police or the army to remove Indigenous people from land that they have reclaimed. Since they are unarmed, the police do not shoot them because they would be in deep doodoo with Canadians and the international community. Thus, it is hand to hand combat ... want to know how many of our police and soldiers are interested in fighting hand to hand with Indigenous people whose passions are inflamed by centuries of mistreatment by Canadian governments and police ... ask any cop or soldier you know!!! If this is Canadas worst hardline approach ... hahahahahahahaha ... is all I can say!!! It took over 100 OPP with batons, tasers and tear gas to arrest FOURTEEN Haudenosaunee at Six Nations ... It took five OPP men to take down one middleaged Haudenosaunee woman!! And over 100 OPP could not retain control of the site ... because they were faced down and walked off the land by the women leading the community with arms linked ... and thousands of Indigenous people arriving from across the continent to support them ... as they will in ANY similar attack. This is not a situation where Canada can play its game of isolating and picking clean each treaty group. There is now an organized Indigenous resistance across the land and around the world. Canadas only tool now is propoganda ... attempts to set Canadians against the Indigenous people who reclaim their land and their rights. Riverwind is a good example of the propoganda machine. How much are you paid to twist minds on boards like this, Riv ... and are you paid by the party or am I as a taxpayer funding your work here STOP THE GENOCIDE. ACKNOWLEDGE TREATY LAND TITLES AND SELF GOVERNANCE!!! ... otherwise, Canada can forget its high sounding ideals that some of us still strive for, and Canada can take its place in history with other fascist power and money hungry nations who disrespect their citizens and those of other nations they have subjugated within their borders. This kind of information does not stay hidden any more... because Canadians like me want to live in a decent country ... perhaps someday.

UN Convention on Genocide, 1948... Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: -a- Killing members of the group; -b- Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; -c- Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; -d- Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; -e- Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Article III: The following acts shall be punishable: -a- Genocide; -b- Conspiracy to commit genocide; -c- Direct and public incitement to commit genocide; -d- Attempt to commit genocide; -e- Complicity in genocide. ... conditions ... calculated to bring about ... includes forcing them off their land ... such as by spraying deadly chemicals designed to kill all the vegetation...and animals ... and poison people ... at Grassy Narrows ... the Canadian government continues to ignore the health and safety of Indigenous people by imposing conditions on them that prevent them from living safely on their land, and by partnering with Canadian government Band Councils and corporations to steal the land without the consent of the people. That is Canadas legacy of hopelessness ... from over a century of abuse and disappearance of children in residential schools ... and genocidal policies that openly sought ... the final solution ... for all Indigenous people ... total assimilation and destruction of them as a people ... The legacy of hoplessness was intentionally imposed by Canada to convince Indigenous people to give up their traditional ways and culture. Canadians are only starting to understand the scope of Canadas complicity in the attempted and ongoing destruction of the lands that sustain them. If you do not inform yourself ... you opinion is of no use in democratic dialogue.

... I am against homosexual marriage, but not against equality rights for gays and lesbians. Sorry, but that statement contains an insoluble inconsistency. Duh ... ya! Ask the children of gay and lesbian families whether they are discriminated against ... They seek only full recognition of equal family status. ... and if I surprise you speaking about families ... then your opinion is uninformed and not useful in a democracy.

Like many Canadians, I gave Harper the benefit of the doubt ... which he quickly lost when he set himself up as a dictator ... the only one allowed to speak. Then he repeatedly showed hisw petulance and displayed that he has no idea how to GOVERN, but he only knows how to CAMPAIGN for election by pandering only to his financial supporters ... Harper would only be comfortable with sole and unquestioned power. He has NO IDEA how to provide good democratic governance!! ...so I call him His Harpiness ... ... and YES we could use some more trees to hug ... and to help us breathe ...!!! (duh) ... rampant corporate stripping of Canadas resources will meet the wall of Indigenous resistance!!

AHH ... but on sovereign Indigenous land ... that is not Canada ... then there will be choices for them. ... Canadas laws will not apply... That is their whole point in negotiations and discussions across the land! Unceded territiries (i.e., where government surrenders were not valid ... as most of them were not) ... unceded territories are sovereign Indigenous territories. It is not about race ... It is about Canadas original agreements and treaties with Indigenous people, that Canada is now bound by law to honour. It is not about making up new rules, but abiding by the original rules. Canada has abused its power over Indigenous people, and is now being held accountable. ... and we all knew we were on Indian land ... no big surprise ...

Ummm, no - you didn't make a point at all. I told you, no one has the ability to delete threads, and I certainly did not delete the thread. Your accusations were baseless and you've made not attempt to defend them to Riverwind. It is hard to do that when the thread has been deleted. Besides, Riv and I have crossed paths since and I am satisfied by her answer. (She is.) ... and she has cleaned up her destructive and offensive language ... with me at least. Leave the thread if you like ...your choice ... as a warning to others to beware who on this board may have a deeper agenda.

I have always found argument that natives are inherently better at protecting the environment to be a bunch of sterotypical B.S., however, I have started to see more and more stories where lefty environmentalists who have traditionally supported aboriginal rights are now finding that their native allies are more than willing to pillage the environment for economic growth. I am not surprised and I think it is good that native groups in remote areas are developing there own industries. However, any left environmentalist who thinks that supporting aboriginal rights is good for the environment will be in for a nasty surprise in the next 10-20 years. That is a pretty broad brush slam that is uncalled for. Haudenosaunee Six Nations are interested in sustainable energy . This week they reclaimed a wind farm Clayoquot is a different issue ... the rainforest ... hope its not like the boreal forest at Grassy Narrows ... they clearcut, burn, kill everything with herbicide and pesticides ... including the insects, worms, birds, animals and people who do not go away ... and then they replant only whatever is a quick harvest. :angry: Grassy Narrows Indigenous Nation has been blockading Weyerhaueser logging for four years. They have had years of this and decades of mercury pollution and illness and huge suicide rates.

Haudenosaunee Six Nations are not aggressors. The OPP aggressively tried to remove them. The Haudenosaunee are peaceful and take defensive action when attacked or invaded. Right now there is one car at the gate and a few people at the back of the site. Not the big deal that its made out to be ... at this time. Monty Kwinter has it about right ... The are occupying land they know legal precedents indicate is theirs - unlawful surrender ... it is unceded territory and thus not Canadian. It appears that the government is stalling developments and negotiating quickly on the entire Haldimand Proclamation lands, which is their claim. This week they claimed a windfarm. They want to get into sustainable energy in a big way The Caledonia carnival ... that is some nasty town and county people. ... yahoos and business people associated with the former development and their colleagues ... are the ones screeching the most, though they got compensated. They are gearing up for another Friday Idiot Night rally this week ... http://www.sisis.nativeweb.org/ Excellent information from Haudenosaunee Six Nations here ... history, treaties, residential schools, media, archive of updates from the site through the events It addresses some of your questions. also timmers videos at youtube heres one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUVZgfkmzbw Negotiations seem to be moving along quickly, judging by the confidence shown by some posting here reclamationinfo.com is a source of more information. http://www.sixnations.ca/ is the elected Band Council (government) site. The Band Council, just prior to the OPP raid, voted for the traditional Haudenosaunee Confederacy Council to take the lead in the land claim. This was a major event as the Confederacy was criminalized by the Indian Act of 1924. The government balked and then agreed to negotiate with the Confederacy. http://www.ratical.com/many_worlds/6Nations/index.html http://sixnations.buffnet.net/Threats_to_T...al_Governments/ This last one is a statement of the position of the Confederacy regarding warriors involved in illegal activities that threatened peace and safety in other locations. The warriors at the land reclamation were chosen by Clan Mothers initially and more came later ... the Confederacys leads the reclamation, and they indicated influence but not always complete control of all individuals. At this point in time, the reclamation site is very quiet ... unless Caledonia gets noisy again as they threaten. The best weapon the Haudenosaunee have is that they are unarmed ... by order of the Clan Mothers who have responsibility for the land. They are unarmed because if they were armed they would be killed. They want the land back, and their sovereignty as they are entitled on unceded land.

Hard to tell what it means and the reluctance of the poster to be specific doesn't really enlighten anyone. the Bilderberg perhaps

Welcome to the forum. What white brother are you referring to? I am curious too ... but I think it is big business ... corporate power ...

I believe I made my point. Moderator, you can delete this thread now.

I am not sure what your point is. Political business is discussion and debate. I realize that I have raised some points on the issues which disturb you, however, all of my points are rational arguments based on reasonable assumptions. If you disagree with my points then you could try to present a counter argument instead of lauching accusations intended to shut down discussion.I also find it ironic that you would consider me a party hack - I look at each issue on its merits and will support any party's position if the issue if I believe it has merit. Other posters have made the comment that they cannot figure out what party I might support because my opinions are so varied. I have no idea what you are talking about. I believe the post you are referring to is here no that is not it...it was in a thread that no longer exists.

Would you make that argument if the descendents of the orginal white settlers had special rights? Irelevant red herring, Riv. The current situation arises because ... The land belonged to the Indigenous people who occupied it for thousands of years and developed a sophisticated civilization and a large scale participatory democracy that we can only envy. They allied with us helped us survive and helped our country become a country instead of a US state. So ... we stole their land, outlawed their religion and democracy and killed and abused their children for over a century. How ... and why ... Because we had guns and we wanted their land ... power and greed. There are no other reasons... and there still are no reasons except power and greed for us to deny them their rights ... again.

There is no need to re-open that debate right now, however, it would be very worthwhile to remind any natives who are making rediculous demands that the gov't has that power and that the legalities of the issue will mean nothing in the end if public opinion is against them. By ridiculous I assume you mean they are demanding what they are legally entitled to ... please clarify. And NO the government does not have the power to reopen that debate unilaterally. If Canadians do not agree, it would not be in their best political interests which is all they care about.

Absolutely true. Even if His Harpiness wants to change the Constitution of Canada (good luck!), that does not change the treaties and royal proclamations and other legsal agreements that continue to stand on their own. Canada can refuse to recognize aboriginal title and rights ... but they will still legally exist ... SO I rephrase my question: WHO WANTS TO REOPEN THE CONSTITUTIONAL DEBATE WHEN IT CAN ACCOMPLISH EXACTLY NOTHING !!! ... but of course, there is the possibility of some sleazy legislation or other which attempts to define aboriginal rights as ... nothing ...wait for it ... it is coming!! ... and I hope His Harpiness has a backup plan for his career because it WILL be a confidence vote.

We see ads that say preference is given to people with disabilities when the job pertains to that. Big stinkin deal. Visible minorities, disabled people, immigrants and others are UNDEREMPLOYED in our country. This helps improve the balance. It is not an Indigenous conspiracy

Just for clarity for other readers ... Riverwind is talking about a need to reopen the constitutional debate to take aboriginal rights and titles out of the Canadian Constitution. HOW MANY PEOPLE WANT ANOTHER CONSTITUTIONAL DEBATE ... :angry:

You seem to think that aboriginal rights are simply an affirmative action program intended to help a disadvantaged group. Your thinking is not only wrong - it is dangerously naive. Aboriginal rights are _permenant_ entitlements that would be extremely difficult to get rid off even if aboriginals become the wealthiest group in our society. That is why it is necessary to oppose aboriginal rights in any form. You have expressed concerns that corporations do no pay their share of taxes to pay for social services. Today you have the choice of voting for an MP or MLA who has the power to increase these taxes - your vote may not be enough to change the policy but at least you have that vote. However, if 1/3 or more of Canada is turned over to 'sovereign' aboriginal bands that are exempt from taxes then you would see businesses locating on these reserves to avoid paying Canadian taxes. Is that a future that you really want? In that future do you honestly believe that racism directed at natives would be limited to a few thugs from the local bar? Racial conflict will infect all stratas of society if such injustices are allowed exist. Native posters on this forum have made it clear that they want to re-create a feudal society where only aboriginals would own the land and everyone else would be a leaseholder. Do you really want to live in that kind of country? Do you honestly believe that future is a good future for this country? It is clear from your posts that you care a lot about plight of aboriginal peoples today and that you are appalled by how they have been hurt by past gov't policies whether it is the Indian act or residential schools. We, as society, need to come to terms with this history but we must do it in a way that does not create injustice and racism for future generations. Well, I see you have toned down the rhetoric and I appreciate that. You were a little too obvious in revealing your cparty-paid agenda. Fact is, the Indigenous people are not imposing anything on anybody. They are simply reclaiming title to lands unlawfully taken from them without proper compensation by the government of Canada. If the government wants to compensate them for occupied properties on their lands, then there likely is no issue. If the government refuses to compensate them, however, then the people occupying these properties will have a new Indigenous government. It is up to the government. It is only in cases where the government refuses to pay proper compensation that these issues will arise. ... and the Haudenosaunee are a SOVEREIGN NATION because that is their lawful agreement with Canada. It is not the end of the world ... but the beginning of a new world. ... a new world ... where we are entitled to know how much money is paid to our governments in corporate taxes for the right to profit from our resources ... have you got that information yet... it is necessary to figure out the cost of land claims settlements ton each Canadian ... I would like to finish that conversation ... because I suspect that the companies NOW doing business on Indigenous land ... stripping the trees and levelling the mountains for mines ... I SUSPECT from your failure to answer my question that they do not pay taxes either! I would much rather see the land in the hands of Indigenous people who care for the land and do not pay taxes than in the hands of corporations who rape and destroy the land and do not pay taxes. I do want an answer if you have one, Riverwind. If corporations are paying no Canadian taxes on our resources ... then how are we benefitting at all from our own resources that are shipped south every day... HOW do we benefit ...!!! At present, we are seeing a lot of posturing on both sides: The government saying we cannot compensate you for people living on your land ... Six Nations saying then they will pay their taxes to us and we will provide their services ... so the government sends people like you here to convince Canadians that there is something sinister about this ... blah blah blah ... it is just negotiation ... and posturing. But do tell: How much does the federal government take in every year in corporate taxes...

Hi all, Just wanted to make a comment here that I believe there are people using this discussion board to do political business ... not discussion, for they shut down other opinions with insults, and by frighteniing and enraging and manipulating peoples emotions to impose their opinions on others for the purpose of political gain. I made this accusation of one poster, and she promptly deleted the entire thread... Riverwind was the name. I wonder if there are others ... and I wonder if they are being paid to do this... Just my thoughts ... anyone else have any observations ...

If the deal is rejected then it's more litigation. At least the lawyers will make a bundle. Amazing, isn't it, how Harper can take humiliation and political setbacks dished out at the hands of Bush, and yet still, like a loyal hound pant at the president's heel. It's a sad thing when our country's leader prefers the interests of another nation over his own. . Yes an it is even sadder when our national government consists of nothing but this guy!! Democracy depends on discourse, and he will not let OUR representatives talk to us!!! Bizarre ... the short lived dictatorship of Stephen Harper ... Humpty dumpty Harper ...

How old are you anyway? This is pretty childish and I don't mean just your writing. James Bredin is 167 years old. If you add up the digits, it is 14 which is about right for the bloodthirsty stage of development ... all hormones no happening ... and lots of angst ...

How many times do you have to be told that exchanging 'rights' for property not a legitimate thing to do in a multi-ethnic democratic society. If natives need to be compensated for giving up land in the past then they should be compensated with assets (cash or land). Compensating natives with race based rights simply ensures that the cycle of racism with continue forever.To illustrate consider two hypothetical scenarios: 1) Natives groups in BC own 80% of the commercial fishing licenses on the Fraser River which they were given as part of a treaty settlement. These licenses are exactly the same as a non-native licences, however, since natives own most of them natives get most of the benefits from this resource. 2) Native groups in BC are given a right to native only commercial fishery which allows them to catch 80% of the available quota. In both scenarios the natives receive the same benefit from 80% of the fishery. However, in Scenario 1) natives are equal participants in society. In Scenario 2) natives are beneficiaries of a clearly racist gov't policy. Some people will grumble about both scenarios, however, scenario 2) simply perpetuates the cycle of racism. Riv ... I despair of your condescending tone, and shock politics ... but we understand that you are doing your job here, polluting peoples heads with twisted party lines. You do not convince people by condescending and shocking them with faulty logic ... tsk. AGAIN ... a race can make a choice of how to live ... It is not racism if it is a choice and a benefit and a community. Your party line is a twisted sister ! I will take your point while rejecting your manner ... Visible differences - like not paying sales tax and reclaiming land ... do increase racial tensions among bellicose ignorant and greedy whites, I have noticed in Caledonia. But why would they ... only to apply to get it back ... Now thats a boondoggle! Let them smile at the cash ... its been their only advantage for a long time, and a long history of imposed disadvantages. Open your mind to the inevitability ... otherwise you are choosing perpetual angst ... And stop with the apartheid, racist crapola talk. It is their choice. Advantage for attempt at balance (!not!) is equity, not racism. Their choice to live together is community, not apartheid ... but I see you have not used that here yet. However, it is neccessary to understand that one size or style does not fit all contexts, and that their choices are the choices of the people. Imposing a standard (equal) practice does not assure achieving equity of outcomes. Rigidity is a flaw when it can only tolerate a one size solution ... thats just inputs ... focus on results ... fairness and equity are the key to longlasting peace, and are not achieved through imposed standard practices, or imposed anything. MYOB. There is a more credible way to present your opinion ... less whining would help.

You are obfuscating again, R ... the words are ... inherent rights ... not inheritance ... birthright, not death tax