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The land has already been transferred to third parties who have increased the value of the land by developing it. This 'additional value' belongs to the people who created it and the Metis groups have no claim on it.If they want land they can buy it on the open market from a willing seller with whatever monetary compensation that they get. The gov't might choose to offer some of its land holdings in lieu of cash, however, the terms of ownership must not discriminate against non-aboriginal land owners. In other words, if they hold the land under fee simple title then there is no racism and the compensation can be considered reasonable (depending on the amount of land involved). Any attempt to create an 'aboriginal title' concept which gives them more rights than other land owners is racist and, depending on the details, is no different than aparthied. Aboriginal title is not being created ...it already exists in the constitution Now there you go again, Riverwind, repeating ad nauseam all that party line crap about apartheid and racism to hook those easily hoodwinked ...... are you getting paid by the party for this... This is an insult to people who have truly suffered under imposed apartheid systems. Many Indigenous people already live apart ... in their communities and on their lands ... by choice ... It is not apartheid if it is by choice ... kinda makes you think of all the old folks in seniors developments ... is that apartheid ... omigod! some of the old brown people prefer to be together! ... they can not do that!! that is apartheid!! oh please ... Racially based apartheid is imposed on people ... it is not a choice. You are intentionally misleading people. Tell the party hacks that this propoganda line is not working because it is insulting peoples intelligence. Maybe now I understand why this board was set up! When Indigenous people get their land back ... they will not be separate at all because there will be existing towns, etc. They can live anywhere in their territory. You make it sound like the government is making their decisions for them ... ridiculous. The government should be busy enough with its own decisions ... how to pay for the land and compensation. Their land will be their sovereign territory as per the Royal Proclamation 1763, now part of the Constitution. Canada is finally getting back to lawful status with Indigenous people. Canada has been on the lam from this for a loooong time. Riverwind makes it sound dastardly evil! That must be her job for the party, cos she sure sings the governments tune ... woe are we...woe are we ... they want our money ...that is apartheid ... no ... that is race based benefits because I am not getting any! Apartheid ... now that is when they tell us they want to live on their land ... ya ... that is right ... that is apartheid when they get to live wherever they want! ya right! Funny how the worm turns when the shoe is on the other foot! Funny how Duncan Campbells infamous speech about the ...final solution... to the Indian problem echoes in the flavour of your words today. Those who have not assimilated by now are not interested. Indigenous people like the Haudenosaunee Six Nations were here for thousands of years. We are a blip in their history ... We were the allies who stole them blind and tortured their children for a hundred years. Now they are reclaiming their land and their sovereignty, and good on them! Equity, as Tsi says, is not the same as equality. Equity can be different things according to need, for equity of results! (equal input does not often result in equity) In this case, sovereignty in their own lands is the the original agreement (also now part of the Constitution): The Two Row Wampum http://hometown.aol.com/miketben/miketben.htm They are not asking for special status as Canadian citizens ... they are resuming their legal sovereignty. Riverwind ... did you manage to get that information about how much corporate tax is paid in Canada annually ... We need that information to estimate what the bottom line might be for taxpayers...and do not forget all the surpluses. And do not forget that they made this country!!! Without the Haudenosaunee Iroquois confederacy in the war of 1812, we would not be Canada now.

Geoffrey, Were you there... Did you see violence before the police attacked them... there was none, is none except when they are attacked or invaded. They are peaceful ... and then they defend themselves ... well ... unarmed. It was peaceful there, and the fire and the drums and the singing ... awesome. I visited occasionally ... supporter. There would have been no violence had the OPP not raided violently with guns drawn and other weapons and force used. Six Nations has been raided violently by police before ... 1924 ... elected band councils imposed at gunpoint and treaty wampum stolen (HINT ... purposeful destruction of evidence of treaties that Canada was then choosing not to honour.), Haudenosaunee religion and democracy was also criminalized by the 1924 Indian Act that the RCMP were enforcing that day.... 1952 has been mentioned ... deaths have been mentioned not sure when ... 1959 ... same thing violence, injuries ... not sure what they stole that time. ... and 100 years of forbidden religion and culture, children torn from their homes on threat of taking them permanently, and many were and many children and babies have disappeared. (new book: A Little Matter of Genocide) ...and many children escaped and could not go home so they went to the city streets. ... and many generations of families lived and with the self-perpetuating damage ... and we caused that purposely with Canadian policy and mandate and under federal oversight. Do we own it yet ... Do we own up ... Does Canada step up ... Haudenosaunee leaders stepped up ... they acknowledged leadership in the reclamation of their land, which is the only way for them to do it when it is in private hands. They acknowledged influence, but not complete control of the men on duty at the site. Sneaking in or hurling insults from one street or yard or hiding place or another was Caledonia boys frolic in between the rallies. Caledonias leaders, however, have not stepped up at all and they continue to encourage the racist agitators by not addressing the need for decent behaviour in their town. THE COURT ORDER IS GONE now. It was Hencos injunction ... they do not own it any more. The police are on peacekeeping duties ... and if you look at the media pictures of the former noisy !blockade!, it is in fact a police line facing the !noisy! people of Caledonia. Haudenosaunee Six Nations are 100 yards away ... scoffing and chuckling in hurt and disgust and disbelief. Check out timmers videos...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS8xvInmPUo The judge threatens punishing the contempt charges quite harshly, though, for the dozen or so women, men and youths sleeping in a field unarmed, kicked awake with guns in their faces, in violation of their fundamental rights. The government knows ... there are precedents ... the surrenders were sloppy. Haudenosaunee are the title holders to the Haldimand Proclamation territories ... 6 miles deep on either side of the Grand River, source to mouth (L Erie) ahhh ... the rail bridge ... historic Six Nations entrance to town ...bridge that needed repair and the town would not ... for years. 50% of Caledonias business was from Six Nations. ... but they got reimbursed for lost business... let the town absorb it as a cost of doing business ... dirty business. Yes, laws were broken on both sides. Six Nations police work in partnership with OPP. Haudenosaunee justice is in progress too. How many police were assaulted ... who did it ... who set three barns on fire... what old man swerved to try to hit two Six Nations men ... crimes no one talks about because they know it was not Six Nations. I hope you read my long post on p11. peace out

Corporate taxes would go up by the same percentage too. ok ... so what does that leave for the wage earners ... how much corporate tax is actually paid in Canada ... any at all ...

I don't want to get into a debate about the fairness of the current taxation system. For the purposes of this question assume that everyone has the same percentage increase in taxes which means the rich would pay more. What is your limit? NO ... not the individuals ... the corporations and bankers etc. who made money off indigenous land ... how much will they pay in your scheme...

You are avoiding the question again. How much would _you_ be willing to pay to resolve land claims. You answers so far seems to indicate that you are not willing to pay anything and that you believe that someone else can be made to pay to make your conscious feel better.Why should anyone care about your prinicpals if you are not willing to put _your_ money where your mouth is? Depends ... how much are the corporations paying in your scheme... or are you planning to saddle the wage earners with all of it... ... and will you please stop being so friggin rude!!

You are avoiding the question again. How much would _you_ be willing to pay to resolve land claims. You answers so far seems to indicate that you are not willing to pay anything and that you believe that someone else can be made to pay to make your conscious feel better.Why should anyone care about your prinicpals if you are not willing to put _your_ money where your mouth is? Depends ... how much are the corporations paying in your scheme... or are you planning to saddle the wage earners with all of it...

You are avoiding the question. You are making the assumption that these treaties could be settled with existing revenues. What if yor are wrong - what if the cost of meeting treaty obligations cannot be paid for without huge tax increases. How much of a tax increase would you be willing to pay?The federal gov't collects about $200 billion/year in income taxes. There several first nations groups that are talking about settlements that can be as much as $1 trillion. If you add up the claims of all groups across the country you could be talking about $3-4 trillion dollars. It would take 100 years to pay off those claims if we increase income taxes by 20% to $240/billion. Would you be willing to pay an additional 20% in income taxes for the rest of your life? Don't avoid the question by insisting that it 'won't happen'. The numbers I gave are probably on the high end but they are not completely rediculous based on claims made today. What is your limit where you would say screw the treaties? 10%, 20%, 50%? (to clarify a 20% increase on a 30% income rate would bring the tax rate up to 36%). The people who have benefited most from the land should pay: The clearcutting, strip mining corporations and developers and banks and real estate companies and financial advisors (a stab at Ken Hewitt, king of the Caledonia screechers) and the Bay St boys who make money from financing them should pay. They are the ones who have reaped the benefit of using the land, mortgaging the land, etc. They are the ones operating for profit. They are the ones hiding their money so they do not pay income tax. They are the ones screeching the loudest in their ignorance and lack of humanity. This is a human issue. An issue of contrition, apology, and doing the best we can to support them in regaining their lives from over a century of oppression ... by us. Paying for a century is quite reasonable, all things considered. I am exempting farmers ... they are stewards of the land too.

Thank you Tsi. My ears were starting to ring from Riverwinds howls of protest! (Resistance is futile, my dear.) I would like to let the readers know that I am not Indigenous ... just a supporter ... and I have been at the Haudenosaunee Six Nations reclamation site several times ... before and after the OPP raid, the Bread and Cheese day melee, power shut down, during several of Caledonias Friday Night hate fests (Idiot Night) and other times. It was peaceful and safe behind the Haudenosaunee barricades, kind and wonderful people, intelligent and fascinating conversations ... and confident and very very focused. I am proud to associate with such decent and principled people. And the Clan Mothers ... bless them ... we are lucky to have their leadership! The traditional leaders of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy are an example to us all. Watch and learn. A lot of the locals, however, were SHAMEFUL!!!!!!! ... not just the usual liquor fuelled bunch, but in particular the BUSINESS community. They were ... and are ... incredibly arrogant, racist and ignorant. Seems all it takes to make them lose their grip entirely is a little dip in their pockets. And boy, did they lose it!! Grown men and women having two year old temper tantrums in front of children! It was just disgusting! No shame, no principles ... no decency. All the news coverage about the ongoing strife at the barricade ... that was NOT Six Nations but the locals ... Six Nations barricade was 100 yards away from the police line! Yes, I know that is not how the media portrayed it. They lied. After a few interviews where the media would only talk about violence and not at all about the issues, Haudnosaunee did not want to talk to them anymore so they got smeared in the mainstream press. It was the locals threatening the police, spitting on them, assaulting them, SCREECHING right in their faces incessantly. And then the kids started imitating the adults. ... and still to this day, no local authorities have spoken out against this behaviour ... instead, they have supported and inflamed it. Caledonia deserved everything it got, in my opinion, because they brought it on themselves with their ignorant behaviour. And to this day, Haudenosaunee teenagers cannot go to town without being called racist names. I truly hope this is not repeated in other communities. PLEASE pass this message along!! Resistance is NOT helpful. The law is the law ... the Constitution is the law ... the treaties are the law ... and public decency should be the law if it is not. It just happens that this time the law is on the side of Indigenous people, and it is long overdue. Considering all the times the law has been used against them ... It is their turn ... please understand: We tried to destroy them as a people. We have heavy dues to pay. I hope we do it well so that we can be allies once more. There really are no alternatives. Time for Canada to step up. Thanks for reading this.

How much would you pay personally to solve these issues? What percentage of your annual income would you be willing to donate to solve this problem? I know you would not give up 100% of your personal income so you must have a limit somewhere between 0% and 100% where you to would say screw the treaties. What is your limit?. Remember we are talking about paying money in addition to any taxes you already pay.Would you be be willing to surrender your property with no compensation if you discovered it was on land claimed by native groups? I think you are being silly. What is the size of the federal surplus now ... Where are the EI funds ... What are the terms of payment ... over how many years ... No ... I would expect compensation from the government that made the mistake in the first place ... and yes, I know that means I would be paying it through my taxes. Maybe we just will not be able to afford corporate welfare for a while... ...and do not most people have title insurance these days ... I do!

How much would you pay personally to solve these issues? What percentage of your annual income would you be willing to donate to solve this problem? I know you would not give up 100% of your personal income so you must have a limit somewhere between 0% and 100% where you to would say screw the treaties. What is your limit?. Remember we are talking about paying money in addition to any taxes you already pay.Would you be be willing to surrender your property with no compensation if you discovered it was on land claimed by native groups? I think you are being silly. What is the size of the federal surplus now ... Where are the EI funds ... What are the terms of payment ... over how many years ... No ... I would expect compensation from the government that made the mistake in the first place ... and yes, I know that means I would be paying it through my taxes. Maybe we just will not be able to afford corporate welfare for a while...

Since no one knows what the outcome would be in such a transfer of land, I have to ask. The entire city of Winnipeg is claimed by the Metis. No one is certain what it means if they win in the Supreme Court. Are they asking for the land or compensation... I do not see it on the land claims website http://www.indianclaims.ca/english/claimsmap/claimsmap.html Re Pelee Island, which is inhabited, the government did not transfer the land ... they simply acknowledged the title and closed the file. It is now up to the band whether they try to reclaim, etc. Toronto ... is being settled for compensation, except the Toronto Islands which are in the same status as Pelee Island and will likely be reclaimed.

Since no one knows what the outcome would be in such a transfer of land, I have to ask. The entire city of Winnipeg is claimed by the Metis. No one is certain what it means if they win in the Supreme Court. Are they asking for the land or compensation... I do not see it on the land claims website http://www.indianclaims.ca/english/claimsmap/claimsmap.html

Since no one knows what the outcome would be in such a transfer of land, I have to ask. The entire city of Winnipeg is claimed by the Metis. No one is certain what it means if they win in the Supreme Court. Are they asking for the land or compensation...

No he is completely serious. Other native posters have said the same thing in different ways and they were not simply saying it to be provocative. Many natives firmly believe that non-aboriginals are useful sources of income on their land but are absolutely opposed to any system that would give non-aboriginals a say in aboriginal gov't. That is the point that you don't seem to understand. The gov't is trying negotiate a settlement but there are certain points that it cannot give in on. Unfortunately, many native groups are refusing to give ground on their demands. The net result is negotiations are stalled and are not likely to conclude anytime soon.You call me an extremist but I am simply saying stating truth. We cannot give the natives what they want which means we are going to have to tear up the treaties whether we like it not. The gov't is trying to be more diplomatic than me but negotiations that never end are the gov'ts way of saying the same thing. Well you have not provided a source for that information so I can not really comment, but I think the government has other reasons for stalling too ... to allow development of land and removal of resources ... and I think Indigenous people are furious about that. It is to bad the government did not move its butt years ago when they may have settled for money. Either way, it is the governments problem. They have known for at least 30 years this was coming. It is time to pay the piper, and not through that silly specific land claims process but through the treaties. I do not see the need for offensive statements like you have made. I call you extremist because you use insults to shut people up and impose your views. If you understood Canadas residential schools genocidal campaign, you would understand the people better. They are trying to regain their lives after a century long attack against their very existence. A little compassion is warranted, and reason rather than threats. Perhaps you are also not aware that we criminalized their religion at the same time as their sovereign governance (1924). These things do not sit well with them, and Canadas committments and Canadas problems are of little concern to them. There will be no treaties torn up. Why would we tear up only treaties made with Indigenous people and not others ... that would be a racially based initiative ... or does that only matter to you when they get a benefit ...

So you are saying that if the Six Nations had land granted to them that had a majority of non-Natives on it, they would have title to the land the occupy but no vote on larger issues of who is, for lack of a better word, is "making the buses run on time?" For some people community politics *is* national politics. And what you describe *is* dual citizenship. I think Tsi is pulling your chain a bit ... Riverwind is an extremist and he is returning in kind. There is no answer to these questions at present. As you saw above, the government has recognized that the surrender of Toronto was invalid, and is negotiating a settlement, and has assured people that their titles are intact. At Six Nations ... they are in negotiations too, for land, and I am quite sure that at this point, they are conceding nothing and revealing nothing of their position. Obviously, the Canadian government will do whatever it can to protect private property titles. The one to watch ... that is complete ... is Pelee Island. The surrender of the Walpole band was deemed invalid so they resume title. It remains to be seen whether they will reclaim the island or parts of it.

Info related to earlier discussion with Riverwind: Mortality rates in residential schools http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/mort_rate_index.html Dr Bryce was commissioned to do this study in 1907, but the results were hidden. Subsequently, in 1922, Duncan Campbell Scott made his infamous statement that all was on target for ... the final solution to the Indian problem. Dr Annett has likewise been vilified ... but not silenced, and there are two other authors who have just published ... A Little Matter of Genocide ... I do not think the information can be suppressed any longer. Many Canadians know ... Catch the CBC movie Butterbox Babies sometime, about a home for unwed mothers. The movie was not explicit, but my mother was around when that story broke and she knew that these were mostly babies born to aboriginal girls from residential schools, through sexual assault by staff. The babies were murdered and buried in butterboxes. That was the east coast ... Annett was the west coast ... stories there of pregnant girls being taken away and coming back without their babies ... a story of baby skeletons found when a school was being torn down ... a story of hidden graves - children, not babies, quickly dug up when the school was closing in 1972. Records dumped in the ocean... It happened on the east coast ... and the west coast ... want to guess about the middle ...! It was standard procedure. Canada mandated, funded and supervised and is responsible ... and the story is yet to be heard by the public because it has been suppressed. It was, of course, traditional indigenous people targeted for their failure to give up their culture who experienced the most severe treatment. WHY ON EARTH WOULD THEY WANT TO BE CANADIAN !!

... speaking only for yourself, of course ... your intentions may not be honourable, but you do not speak for Canadians and you most certainly do not speak for me. The rest of what you said is just control crapola ... still trying to run their lives ... they do not care what you think they should do. So ... in your mnd ... aboriginal rights and titles are invalid because they are race based ... even though it is in the Constitution ... and the treaties are invalid because it would be difficult to live up to them ... so then ... in your mind ... if neither of these is valid ... why IS Canada negotiating settlements...

That fact has already been changed. The Mississaugas Nations currently hold title to Toronto (2003). The government is developing an offer to purchase, and no doubt there will be no ill effects for people living there ... but the title is not currently theirs. You have been dismissing, denigrating and denying aboriginal rights and titles. If you argue extremely, as you do, you get extreme responses. It is just a game you extremists play to justify your fears of anything out of your control. Do not worry ... No doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

ummm .... a typical right wing extremist Canadian response (which I am sure is most of what you get) ... but not a typical Canadian response, Tsi. The majority want to see justice for indigenous people. My stepfather ... conservative but not extreme and not a man to anger ... was angry throughout his life at the pension discrimination against Indian veterans that he fought with. The majority of Canadians are silent, perhaps not helpful ... but not extreme like Riv here ... and they will support making it right. Treaties need to be honoured. Riv and other extremists are American wannabes ... I wonder if there is a connection between UEL folks and this extremism ... perhaps ... still pissed they had to leave ... !! NEWSFLASH ... the border is open!

I have said many times that Natives are asking for an Aparthied system in Canada. People have called me a rascist for even suggesting that is the case yet here we have a Native poster that more or less confirms that is exactly what they what. Race is a red herring ... a twisted attempt to dismiss legitimate claims to land by denigrating people ... and denying their title to the land. It is not about race per se ... it is about the people who lived here before us and shared their land with us through treaties ... that we have not honoured and now must, for we did not successfully assimilate or destroy them as we tried to do and their spirit is stronger every day now that the residential school holocaust has been ended ... Those who were directly affected are now elders. Their children are strong. Dismiss, denigrate and deny does not work ... it does not distract them from their purpose ... they have seen it all and their eyes are open now. Canada will NOT just say no ... not going to happen ... we DO care how we are seen by the world. We do not have the firepower of the US that causes them to ignore the opinions of therest of the world ... and then they wonder why no one likes them and they sew canadian flags on their kids backpacks so they will not be vilified as US citizens are everywhere else in the world. The US is NOT a model of international relations that Canada follows. Archaic Treaties .... What date would you suggest as a cutoff for not honouring the archaic treaties ... If you dismiss the The Haldimand Proclamation of 1784, would that not also make the Treaty of Paris (1783) archaic ... our American friends might not be happy becoming British subjects again... The bad cop routine ... creates strife where none is necessary. As for your inflated talk of terrorism ... the most powerful weapon that the Haudenosaunee Six Nations have in defending themselves and their territory is ... that they have no firearms. They are unarmed, by command of the Clan Mothers. The police have shown no stomach for shooting unarmed people. It was the women who faced the police down and retook the land after the attack. They simply stand, women, children and men (warriors) ... and Canada has no force that can overcome that. They are awesome! Of course, this is all hypothetical talk anyway because whether you like it or not ... Canada has negotiated agreements and recognized aboriginal titles and is continuing to do so ... for Haldimand now.

Bill Wilson is on the record saying that natives should have just killed off every white settler instead of co-operating with them. He is one of the people who believe that non-aboriginals should be reduced to being tenets on land owned by aboriginals. The term 'slaves' was a bit strong but not a completely inaccurate representation of his beliefs. Canadians only care about the international court when it is used against someone else (i.e. George Bush). If the international court ruled that Canadians would actually have to make sacrifices then you can bet that Canadians would quickly dismiss the court as irrelevant (which it is). Why IS it irrelevant... Hmmm ... no answer ... however, I personally do not think walking away from the table is something our government will do. It behooves them to settle to avoid international acrimony. It would be nice if someone was thinking ahead to how we will all live together without acrimony. There will be some who will hold onto their colonial dreams, but the majority are more interested in making it right. This is Canada, after all, and we have high sounding ideals that most of us would like to see upheld. I do believe that the some have pulled the wool over their own eyes, ignoring the reality of our situation with regard to the land we do not have legal title too, expecting it to go away. However, they are not going away ... they are going to the negotiating table and in many cases they want the land back! ... and then we will still be neighbours. I know this to be the case in Caledonia, and those who refuse to accept will be frustrated ... but they do that to themselves.

Bill Wilson is on the record saying that natives should have just killed off every white settler instead of co-operating with them. He is one of the people who believe that non-aboriginals should be reduced to being tenets on land owned by aboriginals. The term 'slaves' was a bit strong but not a completely inaccurate representation of his beliefs. Canadians only care about the international court when it is used against someone else (i.e. George Bush). If the international court ruled that Canadians would actually have to make sacrifices then you can bet that Canadians would quickly dismiss the court as irrelevant (which it is). Why IS it irrelevant...

The international court is irrelevant. The only law that applies within the territory of Canada are the laws of the Canadian gov't and Canadian constitution. The majority in this country are not going to accept any resolution that involves significant sacrifices. Some native activists realize that (e.g. Phil Fontaine) and wish to focus on solving problems rather than upholding treaties. Other natives (e.g. Bill Wilson) think that non-aboriginal Canadians are slaves that exist only to provide income for aboriginals.It is perfectly reasonable for the Canadian gov't to walk away from any table that has people like Bill Wilson sitting at it. This is not the place for personal attacks. You might want to consider editing that out. I am interested in why you think Canadians will consider the International courts irrelevant. I believe we already made the sacrifices ... that is what the surplus is for !!

Natives who demand huge settlements for archaic treaties are, by definition, not reasonable. IMO, they are extremely greedy people looking to cash in on a genetic lottery ticket that they don't deserve. Has it occurred to you that your opinions may be incorrect and extremely offensive to some who post on this board ... this board that exists for the purpose of promoting honest and fair dialogue ... Freedom of speech is not absolute in Canada ... one is not free to promote hatred and your freedom only extends to the point where it interferes with the freedoms of others... like freedom from bias due to genetics ... race in this case.

Natives who demand huge settlements for archaic treaties are, by definition, not reasonable. IMO, they are extremely greedy people looking to cash in on a genetic lottery ticket that they don't deserve. Not it isn't. It is up to non-native Canadians to decide what we are willing to pay and the native groups must accept those limits. If native Canadians do not want to accept those limits then the gov't should be willing to walk away from the negotiating table.BTW: laws can be changed - so can the constitution. So the fact that some native groups may be legally entitled to something according to today's laws means nothing. There must be a political solution. If the government walks away from the table, they can take Canada to International Court. The precedents there are clear.