Kindred

Have either of you actually lived in China? Where do you get your information from? China is not a closed country as you seem to think it is News Flash China cable carries CNN, and BBC and they actually have satelite dishes and can watch whatever they want to on TV. Movies are for sale by the millions - on the street, in stores, everywhere you go there are DVDs of the latest and classic movies ........ Jeeze, stop spouting stupid crap that you heard somewhere -- "Ignorant of the rest of the world" when most of their graduates are going to Canada, the US and England to University? And have for years, we have met dozens of students who have attended university in Canada and the US and returned to China to live and work --The training and education of international students in Canada alone has an estimated $4 billion economic impact. There is also a significant number of Canadian and American students studying in China, the communication and cross cultural exposure flows both ways ........ do you think these students, teachers, business people, tourists dont talk to Chinese people? Dont make friends in China? Dont get into discussions with them? 110 million private users are on the internet in China, and those are estimates. Every block has two or three internet cafes ..... the Chinese are talking with people from all over the world. I have routinely accessed dozens of sites that contain information about democracy, world affairs, history, whatever - millions of people are taking online courses from inside China. China does NOT block these internet sites, you are believing lies, propoganda and fairy tales .... how can you just swallow all of this and not question how valid it is? Almost every hotel room, rental accomodation comes with an internet connection. They have bookstores in China and some of them even carry books like "Wild Swans" I found it in a library in China -- have you ever read it? Books on politics, democracy etc. And every book of Classic Literature you can think of or want to read ........ There are thousands of "English Corners" and discussion groups in China, informal gathering of young people and foreigners that get together to discuss anything ... and everything ...... Canadian High Schools, English High Schools, American Highschools are all over China, the teachers are from Canada, the US, and England, Australia, Europe, from all over the world .... they teach history and world politics etc. Get real ...... you have NO idea what you are talking about ........ I have talked to dozens of people about Tianamen Square, and surprise no one was killed, tortured or jailed! This includes people employed in the media in China, Chinese people. The Chinese people love to talk to foreigners, they ask about the cost of living, the living conditions, working conditions, our Social Programs, our Government etc. You are right I did get the dates for Mao's death wrong. I apologize. As I said I am fed up with people spouting off a bunch of propoganda crap they "learned" from the popular media - Your so called facts are fiction heresay The people in Canada and the US are more ignorant of the conditions and lives of the people in other countries than the Chinese are .... how many discussion groups comprised of young Canadians and Americans do you know of? Seems to me Canada, England and the US are adverse to torturing "political dissidents" and "suspected terrorits" - holding them in jail for years without formally charging them, torturing them ? Its okay when we do it? Is that how it works? From a Christian Magazine online Most striking is what appears to be a public admittance by Beijing that Christianity is not only on the rise but is growing rapidly - and that the church is benefiting a spiritually hungry population that is growing more "individualistic.".........."Christianity is growing quickly here, faster maybe than in any other part of the world," says Gao Ying, vice president of the Beijing Christian Council. "Individualism is growing, and people need to feel love and community." The Bible is legally printed and sold in China. Jewellry stores carry Christian crosses and symbols. From the Open Doors website : The last 30 years have seen great progress for the cause of religious liberty in China, resulting in remarkable opportunities for overseas Christians to serve and witness in Chinese society. The ideological oppression of the Cultural Revolution (1966-76) is long gone, and as China opens up its economy to global forces, it is now possible to work legally within China and partner with local Christians, albeit primarily with the official church as yet. More than thirty million Bibles have been legally printed and sold since 1987. I will admit that change and tolerance is slower in coming to remote rural areas of the country. The Chinese version of NA's "redneck intolerance of different cultures, races and religions". Even the Rolling Stones and other groups have toured in China. The first visit to China by the Rolling Stones was officially announced by promoters, who said the band would play on April 1 in Shanghai and on April 4 in Beijing. The Ministry of Culture, which once viewed rock music as ''spiritual pollution,'' approved the concerts in early February but plans for the shows were completed only this week, said Chen Jixin, a promoter. Despite its approval, the ministry might not agree with Ms. Chen's assessment that ''the Rolling Stones concert in Beijing will be the most significant event in China's performing arts history.'' From Yale University Dept of Public Affairs The educational dimension of the Deng Xiaoping's reforms An important ingredient of Mr. Deng's Open Door Policy was an understanding that progress would be promoted by greater openness in education. In October 1978, Mr. Deng said, "I support the increase in the number of students going abroad for further study, up to thousands and tens of thousands. On one hand, it serves to raise the standards of our own colleges and universities Éand we can learn more about situations and problems in need of solving." Mr. Deng correctly foresaw that this development would help China to modernize its technology and its economy. What he did not emphasize at the time was how the flow of students across borders would also lead to greater mutual understanding. We have developed a deeper appreciation for the distinctive elements in Chinese and western cultures while at the same time recognizing our common humanity and our common interest in working together. Have we really? Or are people in the west still woefully ignorant of what China is like? People who have never set foot in China, never talked to the people, never taught the young people of China, never participated in open discussion groups, never lived in China.

Seems to me that China has become a prime target for everything imaginable these days. Human Rights Violations, mistreatment of its citizens, starving children and now cats and dogs. One would almost believe there are villians prowling the streets hunting for innocent little pets who strayed out after dark. This is nothing short of ridiculous - and ignorant to an extreme. Instead of spouting Media propoganda against China why not just go there and see for yourselves whether these horrors really exist? China has become the new "bogey man" of the US. Wonder if that means Bush is warming up for a war with China next? If he is going to become Supreme Leader of the world he is going to have to tangle with China sooner or later - start the propoganda machine now so people become bent out of shape over the imagined horrors visited upon the people of China. News Flash Mao died in 1989. Since then China has been struggling to overcome years and years of suffering and human right violations and injustices. The progress is nothing short of impressive, excellent Old Age and Disability Pensions, free housing for the poor and destitutie, free "food stores", freedom of religion, a mergence of tourism and capitalism with the "New Communism", improved working conditions and wages, environmental concerns and efforts to combat the effects of a country dependent on coal. Messages running constantly on the TV to understand and support the mentally and physically disabled, promoting their abilities and programs to assist them ..... As for the terrorist police force in China you would have to really go some to get yourself arrested by the Chinese police. I have witnessed street fights where the police were called, dispersed the crowd, separated the combatants and sent them on their way -- no arrests. I have witnessed protests outside of the City Halls with workers demanding higher wages and better benefits - kind of like Canada? No problem from the police. Tianamen Square, like Kent State was a long time ago ...... I have seen many many times the police blowing whistles and waving their arms and trying to hold back crowds of people from surging across a street before the walk light come on for them ..... they are just ignored. People arent afraid of the police. Yes there is bribery and some corruption within the police force and Government officials, like there isnt in Canada, or the US? The people who run into trouble with the police in China are the extremists, those who want to bring back Maoism, those who traffic in drugs and human beings, plus your run of the mill, garden variety crooks, B&E artists and criminals. I also witnessed a break in at a Canadian School in which many Cdn teachers had passports, money and electronic toys stolen - police showed up, listened to a hysterical witness who "identified" four suspects among the local workers, based on the fact that they were wearing brown shirts -- and demanded the police arrest them and charge them -- When cooler heads prevailed, telling the police this person had no idea who had broken into her apartment, yes she saw "someone in a brown shirt" - the "suspects" were released and allowed to return to work. No beatings, no one forced to kneel while he has the back of his head blown off -- no yelling, screaming, torture, or other mistreatment -- One still hears stories of police blocks every mile on the highways demanding "travel documents" and other bullsh*t stories about China ...... go there yourself, talk to the people ......... find out the truth. There is a amazingly low crime rate in China too. Something we could use in Canada and the US. I feel much safer there than I do in Canada. If they take a hard approach to criminals is that a bad thing? Oh yah about the cats and dogs, in Northern China they eat dogs, in Southern China they eat cats .... get over it, we eat cows and in some places in this world that makes us total barbarians ...... And you dont see people's pets out for a stroll in the evening in China. Isnt that a novel idea? Pets are walked by their owners, coddled and fussed over and dont become a nuisance to their neighbours ... no packs of wild cats reproducing all the place ... Countries like Canada and the US should clean up their own mess before they point their fingers at others. If we treated our children as well as the Chinese treat theirs this would be a much much better country to live in. Why are so many activitists in Canada concerned with the welfare of animals when so many CHILDREN are living in poverty with inadequate housing and essentials? Our society is so screwed up when it comes to things like this ....... protect the doggies and the seals but let the children suffer? Its a collective insanity in Western countries. Over 5 million people in Canada live in extreme poverty and we point the finger at other countries? Send aid to fight poverty in China? In other countries, pour money into programs to assist the disabled in places like Mexico? While our own disabled are treated like fourth class citizens here, forced to live in extreme poverty without adequate housing, food or clothing? Women in China can have more than one child if they pay the Medical costs for the additional babies. There arent "abortion police" breaking down doors and counting baby heads ....... and yes, I saw hundreds and hundred of baby girls ... little girls, dressed and treated like little princesses ........ Did I go off the beaten track, get outside the tourist venue, yes I did - into rural China, into Hutongs, into the less than pretty areas of the cities, into fishing and agricultural villages ... If we gave our disabled workers the same consideration China does we could erradicate a lot of the poverty and suffering in this country ... If we provided free post secondary education for our young people we could also solve a lot of poverty issues in Canada .......... Medical coverage provided by employers and the Government. You get sick in China and you get immediate treatment, you are having a CT Scan and seeing a Specialist within the hour. People arent dying on waiting lists. People hear the word "communism" and the only definition they think of is one planted into their brains by the US propoganda machine --- its appalling that our knowledge of the world stalled back into the 1950's ..... and we've been content to be brain dead since then ........ The problem that the US has with China is that the "New Communism" seems to be working well - for the economy and for the people. The Chinese people emerged from years of oppression, not as surly, nasty, discontents bent on criminal activity as did other oppressed countries, but with a combined unity of purpose and a cohesive mind to make their country great - and a warm and hospitable kindess towards others. Chinese kids are taught the Analects of Confuscious in primary schools and they embrace the philosophy behind his teachings. This doesnt agree with our "dog eat dog" philosophy in the west ..... A long post but this propoganda against China really frosts my socks, burns my butt, makes me very very angry, the ignorance behind it and the mindless acceptance and perpetuation by our brain dead media of this crap is something I find appalling.. Bogey man China? Give me a break already .......