carepov

Yes, "Khartoum" is now on the top of my "must see movie" list! Carr, no I do not admire his views although his writings about "historical facts" are interesting and he was English.

No I never heard of Chinese Gordon, thanks for this and thanks again for Lotta Hitschmanova, Pax Bitannica, Islam in Africa... I love this stuff! Regarding "facts", here's one that I think you'll like: E. H. Carr

Funny I was just reading the exact same wiki! What I am sceptical of is your claim that "Africa under Pax Britannica was a pretty nice place. Not perfect (ask Gordon)...but Africa had peace for the most part". I would start with: -Life expectancy then vs. now -Violent deaths per capita then vs. now (perhaps via Steven Pinker's “The Better Angels of Our Nature") Hey, perhaps one could even argue: "Africa today is a pretty nice place. Not perfect (ask DogOnPorch)...but Africa is peaceful for the most part".

I definitely admire your gusto and your confidence. Personally I do not accept such claims without supporting data. These people and groups in Somalia do seem crazy and they are very Islamic. Thanks, I will add this to my ongoing list of: "anecdotal evidence that evil is directly proportional to Islamism". It is a long list but I generally do not give too much weight to data until it becomes statistically significant. Even then, I am always reminding myself that correlation does not automatically establish causation. "Islam's effect on Africa" I am going to learn more about this topic - thank you for sparking my interest. Yes, I'm new here and "I yam what I yam".

Whoa, that's a lot of questions, I'll try my best to respond: Regarding Canada's refugee system. It is imperfect (like all systems) and there are "fake refugees". It should be improved I think that the creation of the "safe country list" is a good step to fast track "fake refugees". The $2000 incentive announced today to leave the country sounds like a good idea too. On the other hand, the cutting of the Interim Federal Health Program (IFHP) is a stupid idea (slightly less stupid now that the government has partially backtracked). Before making or recommending any other changes I would need to learn more starting with: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/canada.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pdf/research-stats/facts2010.pdf For now, I am going to assume that people working in Citizenship and Immigration Canada are more qualified than me - I try to keep a healthy balance between trust and scepticism. I will certainly assume that any refugee from Dadaab and similar government-sponsored refugees are authentic refugees. And you are correct there is no way we can help all these people - it is not an all or none question though. You are also right - it is not fair that some get to come to Canada and others don't. This must be a difficult choice for CIC employees. OK, once the refugee is in Canada, despite any injustices and unfairness in them getting here, they are here and will become Canadian citizens and so will their kids. Here is where more sympathy from all ordinary Canadians will benefit Canada: -if one has no time and money, just saying "Welcome to Canada, Good Luck!" instead of being rude/judgemental and saying "Go back to Africa!" or worse (Please note I am not inferring that you are unwelcoming - but some Canadians are). This will help refugees become more productive faster. -talking to refugees will help them learn English -There are organizations that pair Canadian families with newcomers to meet and hang-out together. This again will help with the English and help newcomers adapt more quickly, also it is a benefit to the Canadian family to learn more about the world -If one is an employer/supervisor/co-worker and a newcomer is hired just think of how a little sympathy would make that person more productive, again especially if hostility is replaced with welcoming -If one is a teacher... -If one is coach... -If one is a good role model for kids... Regarding sympathy and international aid: - If one has nothing or does not want to donate money, at least do not discourage others from doing so - Most natural disasters invoke a great deal of sympathy and aid - I see no reason to have more sympathy for a victim of a natural disaster versus a man-made disaster - More sympathetic people in the West would eventually lead to more sympathetic governments - i.e. less apathetic people in the West would eventually lead to less apathetic governments - A major reason for not intervening in Rwanda was apathy - More sympathetic Western governments would sell fewer arms to oppressive regimes - ...

I see no reason that you cannot enjoy your beer, friends and BBQs. There are places in Africa where this would not be possible, specifically Dadaab. Here's one reason: you were born here and not there. If you would have been born there - no matter how hard you worked and studied how moral you were and no matter what religion you chose if any - you would most likely not be able to enjoy life. I am just trying to have a discussion. My goal is to learn a little about Canadian and International politics. If I am asked a reasonable question I try to answer it or admit that I have no answer. Sorry if I came off as arrogant and inquisitorial in my multiple choice - please note though that I was not asking a series of questions, just repeating the ones where I did not get an answer from you. Regarding Islam, it does seem that the least peaceful nations are more likely to be Islamic; however I don't see the causal link. Enlighten me if you wish but please do not feel obliged.

OK - you are obviously on a different intellectual plane that I cannot comprehend. Good luck with your Crusade.

Thanks for presenting this interesting exchange and for getting me to re-visit the HRW website. A question I have been asking myself for a while is: would it be a good idea if Amnesty Int. merged with HRW? It seems like such a natural fit and they would have more influence as one organization. What do you think?

Look, I still don't get it. You still haven't answered my recent questions, maybe if I offered a multiple choice: 1. Do you agree on maintaining the UNHRC camp in Dadaab? a) Yes b.) No 2. What should be done there? a) Much more resources should be dedicated to the refugees b.) Slightly more resources c) Status quo d) Less resources e) Remove all resources f) other - please specify I have said numerous times - I have no solution - I don't even understand the problem! Regarding Dadaab, my answers are 1. a) and 2. b.)

Thanks for "spelling it out" for me! Unfortunately I still don't understand. Are you saying Islam needs to be stopped in its tracks? If so, why and how?

Here was my last response when asked "what is your plan?” Yes aside from "doing things better" at the camps (e.g. improved food, education and medical care) and "having more sympathy", it's pretty much the same plan as you and bush_cheney2004 - i.e. status quo with some improved security Look, I realize that "having more sympathy" may seem like fluffy and useless - but it is a starting point for reducing and preventing suffering. I am not saying that we should give up our relatively luxurious lifestyle in order to help refugees half-way around the world - if I said that I would be a hypocrite. It would be an improvement and a benefit to Canada if, once a refugee is accepted by the government, Canadian citizens gave them the benefit of the doubt. When meeting a family at a kid's school, or a neighbour, or playing soccer, or being served at Tim Horton’s or Petro-Canada, etc... a simple "Welcome to Canada - good luck!" instead of an attitude like: Why not?

Maybe it's me, but I do not understand what you are trying to say in this post. I am interested in your opinion and would appreciate it if you could spell it out for me.

Hey Army Guy, DogOnPorch and Peeves, Do you agree on maintaining the UNHRC camp in Dadaab? What should be done there?

I think that much of the report focussed on children - you seem to ignore the fact that they do not have a choice in what they eat. Yes, their parents should be fully responsible for their care and make the right choices for them - but this is not the reality of what is happening. If for no other reason than to reduce health care costs, Canadian Governments, Native and community leaders should figure out how to improve the nutritional intake of children and pregnant women. I disagree with the way that our Federal Government rudely brushed off the report. Yes - as a whole the Canadian food system is very good, and I am quite sure that the UN Report did say that. However, there is certainly room for improvement. Also, there would be value in studying the parts of our system that are working well in order to make recommendations for other countries.

I can think of a very good reason "Why not now"- Canada's reputation at the UN is in the dumps. Almost no country will even listen to us, never mind follow our lead. I don't that Canada ever had enormous influence but what little we has been pissed away by our government. The proof came in the last vote for a Security Council seat. To attempt to pre-empt any accusations of partisanship I will say two good things about our government's foreign affairs policies: 1. They have shown strong leadership in the economic sphere (G7 and G20 etc...) 2. I am less embarrassed to be represented by Steven Harper compared to Jean Chrétien

Several key facts point away from your theory that immigrants are committing more crimes in Ontario: 1. While overall it may be a valid assumption that a visible minority is an immigrant - this is not the case for Blacks: 45% of Blacks were born in Canada. 2. "Those [immigrants from 2001-2006] headed to Toronto tend to come from India and China." 3. Blacks in the US are over-represented in the criminal system similarly to Canada. 4. There are no "black countries" on the top 10 list for immigrants The Top 10 countries of origin for immigrants to Canada between 2001 and 2006: 1.China - 155,105 2.India - 129,140 3.Philippines - 77,880 4.Pakistan - 57,630 5.United States - 38,770 6.South Korea - 35,450 7.Romania - 28,080 8.Iran - 27,600 9.United Kingdom - 25,655 10.Colombia - 25,310 http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/immigration/patterns.html (thank you guyser!) http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/reports/r144/r144_e.pdf To me it is looking more and more like increasing our immigration quotas will actually continue to reduce crime in Canada!

Well, like Signals.Cpl, I am glad that we all agree on maintaining the UNHRC camp in Dadaab despite our different views. Also, we all would like to see root cause solved - war in Somalia - but as far I can tell no one has the solution. I wonder if Army Guy, DogOnPorch and Peeves also agree? Thank you for the interesting discussion, it has certainly prompted me to learn more about refugees and especially Dadaab. Two very interesting and informative links were: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/07/25/f-dadaab-goodwin-education-camps.html http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/canada.asp You are correct, my statement was overly-emotional I will try to avoid this kind of language in the future. I don't know the answer to your question.

Hi Peeves, Earlier in the discussion I brought forward the following report studying crime and visible minorities. I did not see a response from, what do you think? http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/reports/r144/r144_e.pdf To everyone on both sides of the crime/immigration debate in the last few days: This argument has gotten stupid, to paraphrase: "I read in the paper that black gangs are shooting up bystanders", what "about that time white guys killed the baby". How about we re-cap our position and try to provide supporting data: My position is that the crime rate is declining and that increased immigration does not increase crime. - As per StatsCan, police reported crime rates are declining and are at ~40 year low, this supports my position - Overall, visible minorities are under-represented in our prisons, this supports my position *** Here is some new conjecture on my part: -Let's assume that violent crime is inversely proportional to one's level of education -Let's also assume that refugees are on average less educated than the average Canadian -Assume that economic immigrants have more education than the average Canadian -Here is a fact (source: Government of Canada via Wikipedia): "In 2010, Canada accepted 280,681 immigrants (permanent and temporary) of which 186,913 (67%) were Economic immigrants; 60,220 (22%) were Family class; 24,696 (9%) were Refugees; and 8,845 (2%) were Other" -I would not jump to this conclusion (as I'm sure others would) but maybe it’s the refugees that are committing more crimes? -Also, I would assume that economic immigrants would lower Canada’s crime rate My recommendations: -Keep refugee quotas the same for now (25,000 seems like a reasonable number for Canada) -Study the issues facing refugees and make improvements / investments to ensure they are better integrated and become productive Canadians -Gradually increase economic immigration quotas What do you think?

Sort of - but not exactly. Well then in terms of concrete action we are pretty much in agreement on this situation.

OK, you are right, I have a problem with the word "we" I will make sure that we work on it! Back to my hypothetical question about the UN and Kenyan leaders (of course they won't take our advice - but just pretend that they would), would you suggest that they pull out all resources and let 500,000 people starve?

Please do not tell me what "my solution" is. I 100% agree with you that we should try to make Somalia safe for the refugees to return home. I don't have a clue as to how, do you? These 500,000 people are real, not some textbook problem or "security issue" - real people! Yes I would feed them, are you suggesting that we let them starve?

About the existing camp: What do you mean nothing? Do you mean status quo, or do you mean withdraw all UN agencies and support? Who should solve the underlying problem and how?

Economic Left/Right: -0.38 (I expected to be further Right) Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.08 (pretty much where I would expect) That was fun!

I guess if 800,000 Rwandans don't matter... Anyways, what would you advise the leaders of Kenya?

Good point. Pretend that you are the chief advisor to The US President, UN Secretariat and the Leader of Kenya, etc... what would you advise them to do about this camp?