Rue

"Then it is neglecting its obligations as an occupying power to supply order and security within the area." You are the same person who says Israel has no business in the Gaza and West Bank and now states the exact opposite.More to the point when Israel does try supply order and security within the area you call it terrorism. This is why you have no credibilty Figleaf. Time and time again when you respond you completely contradict yourself. "There is no doubt that Israel exercises military control over the region to the extent it sees fit from time to time. It continues to control ingress and egress at the borders, and controls the airspace and use of the ports." Absolutely true and your point? The above does not constitute legal occupation under international law. It is a symptom of an on-going conflict and its part of the cycle preventing peace. As long as Israel ahs to do this to prevent terrorist attacks it also alienates Palestinians and fuels the cycle of distrust and hatred which is why we need to disarm the terrorists so the IDF does not have to be there. " (occupation) Neither does it end simply because the other side, in this case Israel, pretends it has." Again you make a silly statement. Israel has never pretended it has stopped engaging in incursions to fight terrorism. It has never hidden what it has to do to fight terrorism unless its a specific under-cover strike and The IDF issues press releases of its anti-terrorist actions unless they are on-going and undercover and revealing the operation could jeopardize someone's life. All terrorist attacks are eventually disclosed precisely because the IDF needs its civilians to know what it is doing to protect them. Something you have no clue about since you never lived in Israel and have no clue what it is you think you understand from your arm-chair. !!! Where does it say that? Uh Figleaf, in the space at the bottom of the treaty or declaration that states who the signatories to the treating or declaration are-try read one before you ask such questions...you are embarassing yourself with such questions... "Nonsense. The Palestinian's claims are not based on sovereignty; they are based on the right to self-determination." Good grief. Try read and find out what the Palestinians have actually said and while you are at tell us the difference between sovereignty and self-determination. Yes, and under international law Israel is not permitted to occupy and deny self-determination to a people and carry out a creeping annexation on the premise of protecting itself." Figleaf you said yes and then completely contradicted yourself in the next sentence. Gee. Imagine that. Figleaf is trying to twist self-defence around to fit his Israel bad bad bad mantra. Gosh imagine that. Never seen Figleaf try to do that before. Interesting how you don't bother to debate me on the proper use of the legal defintiion of the word "occupy" but instead spit it out again incorrectly with the usual Israel bad bad bad mantra. You show if nothing else Figleaf you have a rigid cognitive process incapable of doing anything but clinging to the same tiresome phrases over and over rather then stating something insightful. Your "creeping annexation" comment is laughable given the fact that Israel has not annexed the Gaza and has never tried to annex it. Once again you do not understand the word "annex" and use it interchangeably and incorrectly.Annex is a legal term for taking land and claiming soveriegnty over it and making it part of another soverign nation. Israel has never done that. Jordan did until 1967. Egypt did with the Gaza until 1967. Israel never did. Its military administration of these territories never claimed to be exercising exclusive rights to total ownership of these lands for Israel. The mandate of the military administrations has always been public knowledge. Gaza can't be annexed it is self-governed by the PLO and Hamas. The West Bank can ot be annexed as even when the Israeli military administered the West Bank, unlike Jordan it empowered village councils to run their villages autonomously. Oslo then codified Israel's intention of having no interest in the West Bank as being part of Israel. Of course Figleaf selectively ignores all that. Won't fit it in with his Israel nbad bad bad prattle. I will say it again Figleaf's use of repetititous misleading phrases is trite and meaningless. The reality is Israel went into the West Bank to prevent terrorist attacks. If no terrorist attacks were being launched from the West Bank it would be gone. The settlers who then came in from Israel and who most certainly exasperate the over-all situation could be removed. They were originally put in as early warning sites to observe for terrorist attacks and it proved a disaster for the IDF who did not want them and did not want to have to defend them. The IDF wants them gone as much as the Palestinians do. Strategically they are of no help. The question unfortunately has come to fruition. Israel has given up waiting for terrorist attacks to stop from the West Bank and is building a cement wall. That will be the tragic solution to an inability to stop terrorism. Yes that wall will cause problems but the alternative-continuous attacks from terrorists in the West Bank are not an option and more to the point further proving Figleaf has no clue what he is talking about because if Israel was interested in annexing the West Bank as opposed to simply trying to prevent terrorist attacks, why woud it put the wall up-it would simply take over all of the West Bank. What Figleaf also fails to understand is where the IDF actually is on the West Bank. In his simplistic brain they are everywhere. They never have been everywhere. They are in very specific places not all over the place and in fact for the most part try stay away form Palestinians and limit their activities to movements of Palestinians when they go outside their villages. What Figleaf would try present as a military ooccupation wide spread on the ground is not true at all-first off the IDF does not have the manpower to commit to such an operation, secondly they use sattelites to monitor movement, and then only move their units in based on specific intelligence reports indicating an imminent attack. They don't otherwise interact with civilians other then on the road-checks. If Figleaf got off his arm-chair and went there and found out what was really going on instead of professing to be an expert he would understand how the West Bank is set out and what I am talking about. This is why I have contempt for people like Figleaf. They talk about land they have never been to as if they understand it. I've never said any such thing. It would really go a long way toward bringing your posts up to a decent level of integrity if you avoided uttering scurrilous claptrap about other posters." Really Figleaf. Then put up right now of shut up. State right now Israel has the right to defend itself against Hamas, the PLO or anyone else who engages in terrorist attacks against it. Excellent factoid. Very informative. I'll bear it in mind. Yes, of course, Israel was utterly committed to building a utopia for Palestinians. " Again Figleaf this is why you have zero credibility with anyone. You are so full of your biases you can't just once stop and admit Israel did the right thing and would have continued to do so but was prevented by Hamas and Al Fatah. Instead you laugh off positive elements and in so doing you make yourself out to be a hyena. Personally, I think your 'good guy'/'bad guy' characterizations are a troublesome oversimplification of the situation over there. If you persist in seeing it in those terms, it will probably prevent you from being able to sort out the rights and obligations that apply there under international law." Now we play the sarcasm card card again. Giggle giggle. Figleaf you just demonstrated in all the above comments that you are completely void of seeing this conflict in any manner other then Israel bad guy, Hamas and PLO good guy, and now you try turn this around at this point to suggest I am engaged in your tactics. The posts speak for themselves Figlleaf as does the insincerity of your above remarks. I've seen little in Israel's conduct that makes that suggestion believable. The ongoing establishment of illegal settlements puts paid to that notion. Figleaf, your bias subjective proclomation from your arm-chair means nothing and is laughabkle given you just finished telling us all how I should refrain from bad guy good guy conceptions, but then then in the very next sentence, you do exactly what you tried to suggest I was doing. Read it back Figleaf. Admire your consistency. Unlike Figleaf who will never do anything but criticize Israel on these posts and will not come out and renounce the terrorist activities of Hamas and the PLO and state they are the key obstacle to peace and unlike Figleaf who would ignore the terrorism and simplify the conflict as simply being caused by illegal settlements in the West Bank, I have and continue to state; 1-settlements in the West Bank have exasperated peace efforts and in the long run, to resolve the conflict aqnd they will have to be dismantled as part of an over all peace process; 2-that as part of the peace process Israel will need safe defensible borders, something Saudi Arabia has already hinted the Arab League can acknowledge in a peace treaty but is something Hamas has made clear it will not accept; 2-the major reason peace can not be achieved is not 1, it has been one reason and one reason alone, the ability of terrorist dedicated to the absolute destruction of Israel monopolizing the Palestinian political community and preventing Palestinian moderates from engaging in peace talks with Israel. As for Figleaf and his arm-chair pronouncements as to what he "sees" only a Figleaf would think he can see from the vantage point of his arm-chair. It is precisely the Figleafs of the world who pronounce from the safety and comfort of their armchairs I have contempt for. They lecture Israelis without a clue what it means to be under attack from a terrorist because they take freedom, democracy, and the ability to walk across the street and sit in a cafe and do what they want for granted. They also insult all Palestinians who can not work and not live in fear of their children dying because Hamas runs their life with brute force. Figleaf has no clue as to how Islamic Jihad, PFLP, Hamas, Al Fatah recruit. He has no clue what terrorism is doing to Palestinians because in his world of good and bad he sees all Palestinians in one simplistic category of "victim because of Israel". He has no clear of what goes on within the Gaza and West Bank and how terrorists in the name of Palestine enslave Palestinians. He has no clue because he has never been there and see how they recruit. He doesn't see the consequence of how choosing terrorism sentences children to death.

And women in the western world were only given the right to vote only about 6 decades ago. There is still a mentality in many western cultures that the MAN is the MAN, and women are secondary. So if you think that Islam needs growing up, so does the rest of the world in order to help with the growing. It takes a long time for change in a society. Unless some outside force decides to say what is what. And well history shows us how that plays out. So, the moral equivalency meme is stooping to these depths? Western civilization is no different from a civilization which bags it's female chattel and stones them to death for being raped because generations ago women didn't have the vote in the west? Are you serious? The point is none of our cultures have histories we can be proud of, Jewish, Christian, Islam, what-ever. All our cultures have their histories of violence, sexism, racism. None of us are perfect. If we are to encourage Muslims to take on peace instead of terrorism, we have to do so with respect. I will not be afraid of Muslims or their religion because terrorists claiming to represent their religion kill and maim people. I won't allow those terrorists prevent me from reaching out to Muslims. Not a chance.

Radical Islam seems to get all the attention because its human nature to pay attention to the negative. Not all Muslims are terrorists. In Canada Salim Mansur has been a Political Science Professor at University of Western Ontario and Toronto Sun columnist and has epitomized the Liberal Islam movement and has not been afraid to basically advocate a line of thought that I try to follow which is one that rejects Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism even though he is a Muslim. It is precisely because he is so courageous enough to fight terrorism by alleged Muslims in the name of their religion, that I will not and can not lump all Muslims as terrorists or the enemy. There is also Sarah Nasser another Canadian who has written in the Jerusalem Post and is a peaceful moderate. The Free Muslim Coalition may in my opinion have some questionable ideas how to achieve peace in Israel-Palestine but they are Muslims who have reached out to Jews and denounce violence and are trying their hardest to engage in peaceful dialogue. Nonie Darwish an Egyptian started www.arabsforisrael.com and I have engaged in written dialogue with her. There is Wafa Sultan, Salman Rushdie and Tashbih Sayyed as well. Not all Muslims are terrorists. It may seem that Islamic terrorists and fundamentalists are in control but there are good moderate Muslims who do not want Israel wiped off the map anymore then the vast vast majority of Israelis and Jews do not want any more Palestinians dying. Try this project on for size; www.seedsofpeace.org. I detest Hamas, I detest the PLO, I detest Islamic Jihad, I detest Hezbollah, I detest the current regime in Iran, I detest Islamic fundamentalism but I do not hate Palestinians, do not hate Muslims, have no problems with their religion or their people. Its terrorists and extremists I hate and if they are Jewish or Christian or anything else, and they are terrorist and extremist, I detest them the same way and for the same reasons. The solution is simple. Two states, side by side forming an economic coalition with Jordan. No terrorism. A second state in the Gaza and West Bank for Palestinians. Movement of peoples through-out the region since there would be no terrorism. If the terrorism could end, then the coalition could grow to take in Lebanon. I doubt Syria or Lebanon at this point is ready for such a thing and I appreciate in the Arab world extremist fundamentalism seems to be at least in the West's opinion, dominating their culture. Maybe it is. Maybe the solution is to take the terror out of the West Bank and Gaza. If there is no conflict with Israel which serves as the fuel for the other conflicts, they can be dealt with. The Sunni Muslim world does not necessarily embrace its own radical elements. Even its extremist Wahabis denounced Hezbollah's terrorist attacks. EVen some very fundamental orthodox conservative Muslim clerics have denounced terrorism. The original Muslim Brotherhood and then Islamic Association in the West Bank and Gaza denounced terrorism. Let's no forget that!

Excellent points you raised. It is precisely for these reasons I am reluctant to get into this kind of discussion which tends to generalize all Muslims or Islamic culture into one category. I don't like it when people do this with my people( Jews) and I don't know anyone who appreciates being generalized. You no where I stand. I despise religious fundamentalism, political extremism, any kind of terrorism, but I do not believe any one religion or culture can depict itself without such extremists. I do not think a peace can come about in the Middle East if we allow ourselves to get caught up in this kind of thought pattern. Its easy for many Westerners to believe all Muslims are terrorists. But then it has also been easy for Muslims to believe all Westerners are Zionist infidel. The extremism on both sides is equally as ugly. I think you raise a legitimate argument. When discussing radical fundamentalism, whether it be with Islam or any other religion we have to take care to make it clear what we mean so we do not slur all Muslims and turn it into anti-Arabism or anti-Islamicism or what-ever you want to call it.

Stop using the term "occupation" incorrectly. The legal term “occupation” originates from the 1949 4th Geneva Convention entited; “ Relative to the Protection of Civilized Persons in Time of War “ Article 6 of this convention states; “ the occupying power shall be bound for the duration of the occupation to the extent that such power exercises the functions of government in such territory..”. The Israeli military government is NOT exercising any function of government in the Gaza Strip. Israel withdrew its military government over the Palestinians and replaced it with a Palestinian Authority under Yasser Arafat as per the Oslo Agreement. It is legally incorrect to state the Gaza is occupied when in fact the PLA exercises self-government . The PLO and Hamas decided to unilaterally changed the legal definition of occupation for political propaganda reasons and give it a new meaning. It argues that since Israel patrols Gaza's territorial waters to intercept terrorists and can fly over its airspace this means Gaza is not fully liberated and is therefore occupied but this has nothing to do with the legal definition. Just because the PLO/Hamas have changed the definition to satisfy their propaganda argument of not wanting Israel in its alleged territorial waters or to stop flying over it, doesn't make it so. The PLO also links Gaza to the West Bank and says until it completely controls the West Bank it considers Gaza occupied as well even if Gaza isn't. Hamas is of the opinion the state of Israel as well as the Gaza and West Bank are part of Palestine and therefore until Israel is terminated as a state and turned into a Muslim theocracy, Palestine is under occupation. This Hamas working definition of occupation is also shared by Al Fatah and all the terrorist organizations within the PLO and Hamas which are in fact two umbrella syndicates of many splinter cells each with its own ideology. Under international law contrary to what the PLO or Hamas believe or Guthrie and Higgly and Figleaf and Buffy and Moe and Larry and Curly parrot, the legal term "occupation" is not used in the incorrect subject political way the PLO and Hamas have now taken to referring to it. Under international law, occupation does not “end” simply because one side, in this case Hamas or Al Fatah says so. Occupation’s termination is not determined based on the subjective agenda or ideology of one side of the conflict but is in fact defined as having occurred when specific legal criteria have been met. In fact the 4th Geneva Convention did not legally apply to the case of the Gaza Strip or the West Bank, since its previous occupants prior to Israel, Egypt and Jordan, illegally invaded these territories in 1948 and NEVER exercised any internationally recognized sovereignty on the ground. For the convention to apply the occupying power must sign on as occupiers, but the Gaza Strip and the West Bank were ver recognized as either Egyptian and Jordanian territories. Not withstanding the above, in an effort to achieve peace, subsequent Israeli governments agreed to a de-facto application of the terms of the Fourth Geneva Convention over the last thirty-eight years even though they have not been obliged to legally. It is also a legal fact that the Fourth Geneva Convention is the internationally-recognized standard for determining the rights and responsibilities of state parties in cases of military occupation not the subjective feelings or ideology of Hamas or PLO or Figleaf or Guthrie. There has not been a legally recognized sovereign in the West Bank and Gaza Strip since 1922. The 1947 UN Partition Plan at no time created a new Palestinian Arab state. In fact Gaza and the West Bank were illegally occupied by the Egyptians and Jordanians in 1948. Today’s Palestinian Authority engages in the phrase "occupied Palestinian territories" to advance the arguement that they have exclusive rights in these territories based on the faleshood that they were previously a Palestinian sovereignty. No amount of revising of history can change the fact that prior to 1948 there was NO sovereign Palestine state in the Gaza and West Bank and so you can not occupy something that never existed even if you want to pretend you are a nation when you are not. The word “occupation” is a propaganda tool used to portray or depict Palestinians as “victims” of an “occupation”. It plays to the concept that they have been invaded and are controlled by Israel. The fact is Israel only entered Gaza and the West Bank in 1967 in direct response to invasions being prepared and launched from these sites. The PLO and Hamas have tried to change history and make it appear for no reason Israel simply decided to invade the Gaza and West Bank. Its part of the Israel bad bad bad mantra. Under the international doctrine of self-defence Israel was and is allowed to defend itself from terrorist actions or external military attacks from foreign nations. It does not contrary to the machinations of Figleaf’s brain, have to sit and wait to be attacked, then do nothing as its people are killed. So in this current cycle of violence, each time Israel is pro-active in preventing terrorist attacks from being launched from the Gaza or West Bank, it is portrayed by Hamas and/or the PLO as an aggressor who for no reason just picks on them. Then the fiction continues because when terrorists are shot on the spot carrying weapons, Hamas and the PLO say Israel is not allowed to do such a thing and is acting unreasonably. The UN resolution Hamas and the PLO use to justify terrorism is Resolution 2708 which states; " the UN reaffirms its recognition of the legitimacy of the struggle of the colonial peoples and peoples under alien domination to exercise their right to self-determination and independence by all the necessary means at their disposal." When Arafat spear-headed air hijackings he quoted the above resolution to state his terrorist actions were not terrorist but “legitimate actions to assure self-determination”. This is the same resolution quoted by Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Palestinian Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Al Quaeda, and hundreds of other splinter terrorist cells. In fact the Arab League and most Arab states to this day refuse to agree to a general renunciation of all violence against civilians as part of an agreed definition of terrorism at the UN. This is precisely why the genocide goes on in Sudan. The Arab League and its nations feel if they denounced violence, they would lose what they feel is a legal right given to them by the UN to engage in terrorism against Israel to resist the alleged “ occupation ". Interestingly when Algeria wiped out over 250,000 of its own citizens in an internal civil war, this resolution was ignored just as it is now in Sudan, Somalia, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Jordan, when the ruling governments have used their armies to crush political resistance. The bottom line is simple. If Hamas and the PLO, specifically Al Fatah, the PFLP and Islamic Jihad, stated they would not engage in terrorism, Israel would not be involved in strategic strikes killing terrorists in cars headed to Israel. If these terrorists cells ceased with terrorism, the IDF would pull back to safe defensible borders like it did in the past when it supported Palestinian charities, schools, mosques and village councils, and paid for the salaries of 19,000 Palestinians including 11,000 teachers and social workers. In the past when there was no terrorism, Palestinians were able to work in Israel, share a common market to sell their fruit and vegetables and had schools, hospitals, road-ways, social services funded by Israel. What has terrorism achieved for its people other then to destroy the above and leave its people unemployed and now engaged in civil war with each other. It is precisely because of this terrorism the West Bank will be now defined by a arge cement wall since Israel has concluded that Hamas and the PLO will not give up terrorism against Israel. If one looks at the charter of Hamas, Al Fatah, the PFLP, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, and then listens to the official speeches or comments on Arab t.v. and radio, they would hear these groups are not interested in creating a state on the West bank and Gaza and never have. Their charters and ideologies make it clear they seek a Muslim theocracy where Israel is now and that the Jews in Israel must be killed or expelled and that to achieve this killing Jews all over the world as well as innocent civilians who may be or may not be Jewish, is a legitimate means to achieve this goal. The same Mr. Abbas who tells the Western Press terrorism has gotten his people nowhere, tells his Palestinian audience that they will not stop until Israel is extinguished. Guess it all depends on who is listening to you. We can play the game that Israel “occupies” and pretend this is simply a bad guy invading a good guy and there are no terrorists, but such a game is tiresome because other then Figleaf, Higgly, Guthrie and probably Buffy, ( I note all this anti-Israel haters end their name with a Y or ee, isn’t that right Figleafy) most people understand that the problem preventing the creation of a second Palestinian state at this time is Hamas and the PLO’s decision to continue on with terrorism. No amount of trying to revise history and paint Israel as bad bad bad can change that fact and the fact that if the Palestinian people renounced violence, could have a peaceful state living side by side with Israel. Hamas has made it clear they do not want a state in just the West Bank and Gaza, so has Al Fatah. If you think Israel will simply sit around waiting to be destroyed keep thinking these good thoughts. Unlike Figgy and Buffy and Guthrie and Higgly, who from their safety in Canada can point their finger at Israel and call it Bad Bad Bad, the people who live in Israel, will do what they have to do to survive and if that means hunting down and killing terrorists before they strike-that is what they will do. If it means creating peaceful social and economic coalitions with Palestinian moderators and removing Israeli settlers-that is what they will do as well. .

Ah its nice to take a rest and sick the Dog on them.

Guthrie can you please make an effort to find out what happened. The Turks did NOT occupy "Palestine". The area of what today is Israel, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan was NOT occupied by the Turks. In fact it was quite empty. The places where there were farms were run by landowners who sent taxes to the Ottoman Empire. Your comments that Palestinian farms were stolen is a misrepresentation of what happened. To understand what happened may I suggest you try find out first what the French and British did, and then who were given the farms and how they exploited titleless vagrant Muslims before you try simplify it as simply a Jew v.s. Palestine issue as to the land-that is a crock. Upir talk about abu Nidal is absolute bull. Thousands, millions of people have been born to poverty, trauma, suffering and hardship and did not choose terrorism. You insult the millions if not billions of humans who chose other methods to try make their lives better. Your attempt to portray terorists as victims and terrorism as an understandable and justifiable option is b.s.-absolute b.s. The Nazi tie in to the Arab world is NOT neo-con. It is a fact. The Muslim world chose to align itself with Nazi Germany.It deliberately got into bed with Hitler, and after world war two, Syria was a safe haven for thousands of Nazis who operated the Syrian secret police and controlled its government. Why don't you find out which Nazi became a leading police chief in Egypt and the role the Nazis played in the Middle East after world war two. That has nothing to do with neo cons and everything to do with the Arab League's decision to back a loser because it shared the same anti-semitic hatred.

Watch it. You came close to me reporting you to the Pork Marketing Board. Pork, ham, you goys/guys are funny. You know what's really funny. Its when you goys/guys put hair nets on it when you serve it. Now my people have a thing about ham too but I can handle it with swiss cheese and mustard on rye bread. But it has to be on rye. Also it is the act of an infidel to eat any meat with pineapples. I mean this pineapple and ham on pizza stuff is ridiculous. Mixing fruit with meat. No no no.

That would be true if you reported everytime a rule had been bent, but it's ovious to anyone with half a brain that you don't, and it's equally obvious that you are selective and vindictive baby. I reported you to my other cat. My cats are Zionists too. They are. They like salami and lox.

Reported. You've got to be kidding me. You are acting like a little baby. I reported you to my cat.

You're just astonishing. The dishonesty is incredible. You said a website was a Hamas website and it was not a Hamas website, it was owned by a group called the Zionist Organization of America. I made no comment on the INFORMATION, I was noting that YOU gave the wrong source for the information. No the information is the same. You have decided to say the source of the information comes from "Zionists". It doesn't. It was repeated by these so called "Zionists but comes from the Hamas web-site then repeated on the "Zionist" web site and I referred to it as being a Hamas web site the same reason you refer to charities, and schools and municipal councils Israel funded as being Hamas. If you can not detect the sarcasm Figleaf what can I do? If your brain is that rigid you can't decipher when someone is being sarcastic at the use of the word Hamas then so be it. But there is no smoking gun. The info on the so called Zionist web site comes from Hamas. There now as much as you try act as if you "caught" me it doesn't dettract from the original point that you jumped on the band wagon with your usual Israel bad bad bad mantras and tried to infer that Israel supported not just Hamas but Hamas's terrorist wing. Then when I point out "Hamas" os often used inaccurately to describe organizations such as schools and charities that are funded by Hamas but not part of Hamas you still don't get it and say I am admitting Israel funded Hamas. Bottom line-you are a Zionist Figleaf. Admit it. REPORTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're just astonishing. The dishonesty is incredible. You said a website was a Hamas website and it was not a Hamas website, it was owned by a group called the Zionist Organization of America. I made no comment on the INFORMATION, I was noting that YOU gave the wrong source for the information. No the information is the same. You have decided to say the source of the information comes from "Zionists". It doesn't. It was repeated by these so called "Zionists but comes from the Hamas web-site then repeated on the "Zionist" web site and I referred to it as being a Hamas web site the same reason you refer to charities, and schools and municipal councils Israel funded as being Hamas. If you can not detect the sarcasm Figleaf what can I do? If your brain is that rigid you can't decipher when someone is being sarcastic at the use of the word Hamas then so be it. But there is no smoking gun. The info on the so called Zionist web site comes from Hamas. There now as much as you try act as if you "caught" me it doesn't dettract from the original point that you jumped on the band wagon with your usual Israel bad bad bad mantras and tried to infer that Israel supported not just Hamas but Hamas's terrorist wing. Then when I point out "Hamas" os often used inaccurately to describe organizations such as schools and charities that are funded by Hamas but not part of Hamas you still don't get it and say I am admitting Israel funded Hamas. Bottom line-you are a Zionist Figleaf. Admit it.

Buffy I am being serious now and susinct. Here is a passage from Al JAzeera about Hamas; "Hamas was funded directly and indirectly during the 1970s and 1980s by various states including Saudi Arabia. The political/charitable arm of Hamas was officially registered and recognized within Israel at this time: indeed Israel supported and encouraged Hamas' early growth in an effort to undermine the secular Fatah movement. Hamas abstained from politics throughout the 1970s and early 1980s, concentrating on social issues such as exposing corruption, administration of waqf (trusts) and organizing community projects. Towards the mid-80s, however, the movement was taken over by an armed faction led by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin. The acronym "Hamas" first appeared in 1987 in a leaflet accusing Israeli intelligence services of undermining the moral fiber of Palestinian youth as part of their recruitment of "collaborators." The use of violence by Hamas appeared almost contemporaneously with the First Intifada, beginning with the so-called punishment of collaborators, progressing to attacks against Israeli military targets." Can you please notice how the term" Hamas" is used to describe Hamas before Hamas was even created? In the Middle East, when Hamas is referred to, it is often used interchangeably with the organizations that in fact pre-existed it. More to the point can you see from this pro-Hamas article that it is stating what I have stated, what was in fact supported by Israel was what they are referring to as a political or charitable arm, because as I said, what Israel was doing was just that funding charities, schools, hospitals or paying Palestinian teachers, social workers directly. As I stated Israel paid the salary of 11,000 Palestinian teachers an danother 8,000 Palestinians. The payments went through its military civil administration and they were meant to undermine not just Al Fatah but ANY other terrorist organization in Palestine. The payments would not go to "Hamas" which the above shows you is used inyer-changeably with what would have been charitable organizations supported by Hamas and thus referred to as Hamas. Hamas would not take the money directly. It came indirectly straight to the actual school or charity or mosque. Now my other point is that the web-site you think is Israeli or Zionist is using precisely the words from Hamas. Go on to any pro-Hamas web-site and compare. Its the same words. In this scheme of thing the only people who disagree with who Israel funded are not Hamas, Fatah or Israel but a few geniuses in Canada who think they know better. That is the point I was making. Since you are bored with my books, I will hold off but if you want me to show you the wording of Hamas and how it describes itself so you can compare it to the alleged Zionist source I gave you so you can see its the same wording, I will. Israel and Hamas and Fatah do not argue over their origins. It is not something they disagree on. Please check for yourself who funds and funded Hamas's terrorist cell and Fatah and the other terror organizations. Check for yourself. (hint-N. Korea, China, the former Societ Union, Deuxieme Bureau, Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Sudan, Iran)

"Rue, I'll say it again - you certainly are a piece of work!" Now you want to heroworship moi? Oh how precious. a gushing teeny bopper. "Can you manage to get my name right? Or just needed to insult again? uh...yah." I am sorry Puffy. "Anyhow, you say that any Muslim bent on destruction of Israel wouldn't take money from Israel to further their desires? How silly - of course they would and they would laugh all the way to the bank! Ha! Have you never heard of false flag ops? Or the term 'Patsies'?? How about the Lavon Affair? " Charming but one problem Gruffy your analogies completely miss the point. We are talking about terrorist cells that would sooner blow themselves up rather then take anything from an Israeli. You would understand that if you could understand the psyche of what makes a terrorist in the Middle East. I am being serious now you are way off base. Do not mistake these terrorists-the same thing that causes them to engage in terror is precisely what would never allow them to take a thing from an Israeli. Rather then listen to little old moi Luffy, why don't you write Hamas or Al Fatah-write to their web-site and ask them and see what kind of response you get to the notion they took money from Mossad or Shin Bet. "Now, can you debate in a nice way? Without all the dripping oils of sarcasm and rude remarks? " O.k. I will try sweety. You are right Ruffy I have been a tad rude. Sorry. "I doubt somehow. Can you be brief and not contradict yourself wrt both Funding and Support as well as the obvious mistake which was made concerning your 'so-called' Hamas website?" I have only sent you my love and wishes because you still think what I have said about funding and support has contradicted itself. I have tried to painstakingly spell out the difference between funding charities, hospitals and schools from funding terrorist cells. I will make you a deal Yuffy. Tell me you understand the difference between a terrorist cell and a charity or school, and I won't send you any more love letters. "No? Okay then - never mind and see ya." On a more serious note, I am fully aware I am a gruff, nasty old fart. I also acknowledge that it is not good to try win someone over by being sarcastic. Its a Zionist trait. Oops it slipped.

"if the system can't flag *this guy* as somebody who shouldn't have a gun, then obviously the system just isn't adequate." I think the above words sum it up for me Kimmy. And what I don't get is this. The U.S. and its states have the exact same Highway Traffic Act offences as our Canadian provinces when it comes to drinking and driving. They do understand a car is a weapon when someone is drunk and must be taken away from people who drink and drive. They understand a car is a privilege not a right adn people who drive must be properly screened. However when it comes to guns-the gun is seen as an unquestionable right and no you don't see any legislation like with drinking and driving that says-a gun is a weapon-its dangerous-the person handling it must be properly trained and screened. anyone can get one. No mental competency test, no skills test. So for the life of me Kimmy I don't get it. I have been trained to use a gun and that is precisely why I am the last person you will ever see with one. I do admit one thing that I have no answer for though. I know there is a HUGE difference between someone who uses a rifle to hunt to feed themself like an aboriginal or rural Canadians. To me people who use rifles to get their food because of the very nature of the exercise don't abuse the rifle and understand the delicate nature between nature and their need to hunt. What I am spitting about are recreational hunters who simply want to kill things and make a mess and leave it or people in cities who I do not believe should have guns at all. I respect the fact that for people in rural areas or who are native, using a gun is not glamorous, its not fun...its what they do to survive. SO what I am saying is yah I would like there to be control and screening but I would like such people differentiated somehow and not lumped in with us city jackasses. I also myself do not believe in recreational hunting but I do respect the fact that many hunting clubs and associations are strict in promoting respect and use of the rifle. I think when we tak gun control we necessarily get into two debates, the debate as to gun control in the city and the debate as to using gusn for hunting. Me personally I understand subsistence hunting but not recreational hunting as a sport. I appreciate that is only my personal opinion and that many Canadians feel recreational hunting is properly licensed and regulated. Me, I don't trust anyoen with a gun although if I had a choice I would prefer it to be in the hands of a police officer, soldier, aboriginal or seasoned subsistance hunter.

May I change the topic just a tiny bit. Today I noticed in the Toronto Globe and Mail, Toronto sun and Toronto Star they all chose to run pictures of the gunman on their front pages with sensationalist headlines and then the inside stories sensationalized this mad boy's behaviour by repeating his words. The television was no better playing out his tapes. Now I ask you guys this. Why? Can this story not be explained without showing his pictures and without playing back his words or repeating his babblings? How is that relevant to the story. How does referring to him as the devil or repearing his clearly mentally ill phrases help explain the story. For me, part of the problem is when a mad boy kills, our media repeats what they do and give it a platform of legitimacy. We keep doing that with violent crime the way we portray it. We titillate and sensationalize and glamorize it and of course we all know by next week there will be a made for t.v. movie and best seller. So we can talk about gun control or what makes mad boys tick but sorry today I am confused just as to who is more mad, this idiot boy, or the media who choose to repeat his story by sensationalizing it. Could we not report this story in a calm, objective manner, simply stating what happened. Showing his face is one thing, showing him with his guns, why? Explaining his motivations or informing us he left manigestoes is one thing-but do we need to read them? Did any of us suffer from not being able to see the Paul Bernardo tapes? I am sure you guys know what I mean. I just don't know anymore who isn't insane and that includes myself of course.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer I wrote this love passage for you on Al Fatah and I will say this point blank to you and not mention it again, I do not believe for a second you have relatives that died in Aushwitz. How is that for jumping to an unsubstantiated subjective conclusion. I admit my remarks seem anti-goy but they are firmly planted in cheek because you are in my opinion trying to shapeshift into a Jewish victim to avoid responsibility for the kind of inneuendoes that come from simply joing on the anti-israel band-wagon. Get something clear about me I do not and have never blindly supported Israel. I have been actively involved with Israelis and Jews and most importantly Palestinians and non Jews who like me do not see right or wrong, black or white in any government or people. We evolved past that when we saw each other's children blow up. Body parts defy any pathetic lame attempt at defining morality and who is good and evil. If you have any common sense, go back and read. If you think I am a liar, go back and read. But don't just read what you want to hear. Push yourself past the comfort zone of good and bad guy or the world of Figleaf where information is black and white and when it comes from different addresses it must be different because its from Zionists. Push yourself. Now I will back off. And trust me Muffy or Buffy or fluffy or what-ever your name is, with a name like Buffyusing the word Shalom comes across as a joke and its patronizing. Don't feign cultural tolerance with me. I can't stand it. You are pandering to the wrong Jew.Sspeak English or French because I am Canadian. don't take on this personna of pretending you are reaching out to Jews -its painfully idiotic. Its like listening to a white person trying to talk as if they are black. All it does is make you look like a fool. Now let us avoid the smarminess and deal with the real solid issue: Al Fatah which was led by Yasir Arafat joined the Palestinian Liberation Organization which was simply a coalition of terrorist cells that had one thing in common-the belief that Israel should be violently ended and turned into a Muslim state. The Western Media has never when it has referred to the PLO taken the time to distinguish the numerous cells within it or the fact that each has a leader, its own ideology different from the others and other then the common belief in the destruction of Israel. Its been easier for the media just to call it all the PLO then be specific about it just as it has been easier for the media to use the word Hamas when in fact Hamas is yet another umbrella organization with a terrorist wing, and another unit which is in fact a handling its world wide financial fund-raising activities and then ear-marks certain funds to mosques, schools, hospitals or village councils. The mosques, schools, hospitals, village councils are simply lumped in and referred to as Hamas when they are in fact separate entities and many other then accepting the funding may not necessarily agree or support all or some of its ideology. Of course when we look at the posts in this idiotic thread we were advised how Israel supported Hamas as if it meant they were sponsoring its terrorist activities and of course told Israel did this to manipulate and turn them against the PLO and then the same intellectual geniuses soon began telling us that Israel funded Al Fatah. Anyone who understands the psyche of these organizations particularly Al Fatah or Hamas terrorist wing members must be having a good laugh at the arm-chair geniuses in this country who suggest it would take money from Israel let alone Mossad or Shin Bet to kill Israelis considering Shin Bet has been actively intercepting and destroying any weapons going to either organization or their predecessors or fellow cell member units since Israel began to exist and of course assassinate any of its terrorist organizers or cell leaders. Yes we are supposed to suspend any common sense and believe Israel would fund terrorist cells-the same cells it hunts down and assassinates. Makes perfect sense if of course you can only deal with the Middle East by whenever possible suggesting anything and everything is done by Israel no matter how idiotic such innuendoes amount to. The name of the game in this idiocy is to simply try pain Israel as evil, manipulative and so sinister it would pay its dead enemies to kill its own citizens. Getting back to reality in 1968 the Al Fatah cell has always been a terrorist organization and so when Yasir Arafat posed for the Western Press as a peaceful moderate man in charge of the PLO which was portrayed as a parliamentary assembly of elected representatives-the fact that he was in fact the head of Al Fatah the largest terrorist cell in the PLO as well as “Chairman” of the PLO was not ever clarified by the press which simply used the word PLO and Al Fatah interchangeably and so no bizarre contradiction in the Chairman of the PLO claiming he was peaceful while heading Al Fatah which continued to engage in terror acts against Israel. When Arafat showed up at the UN carrying a military weapon the media thought it was cute. Another Fidel Castro. Another cute revolutionary. Al Fatah was expelled from Jordan following violent confrontations with Jordanian forces during the period 1970-71, beginning with Black September uprising in 1970. Arafat’s Al Fatah tried to assassinate King Hussein of Jordan and take over the country claiming Jordan was in fact Palestinian, which of course it always was. Hussein was able to stay in power as a result of a Beduin Army which is not native to Jordan and MI-6, British Intelligence which assured military supplies to the Beduin Army. Later, when Israeli invaded Lebanon in 1982 trying to prevent terrorist attacks from what was then a coalition of anti-Israel terrorist cells called the Mujahadeen but in fact consisting of many splinter groups, some Sunni, some Shiite, some communist, Al Fatah had moved to Lebanon from Jordan where it was expelled. It is a fact now substantiated by the terrorist group itself that Al Fatah at all times was financially funded by the former Soviet Union through the KGB, North Korea, China, Saudi Arabia, other Gulf states and most importantly France and in particular operations through the Deuxieme Bureau which placed the French intelligence operations in bed with the KGB, Kroeans and Chinese and directly opposed to MI-6 operations in Jordan. The US which had funded many terrorist cells related to the ones in Lebanon in Afghanistan to fight the Soviet Union also found itself caught up in funding terrorist cells. The fact is the British, French, U.S., Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States and of course Iran have been the source of funding of all the terrorist cells not Israel. Israel caught in between a constantly changing landscape of alliances of today you are our ally tomorrow our enemy-does what it would have to, to survive, at any given time support whoever is non violent and fight whoever is engaged in violence against it and yes of course, if it can fund a non violent organization as a propaganda tool to encourage people to give up violence, it does it. Israel directly gave military assistance not to any of these terrorist cells but its proxy ally in Lebanon the South Lebanese Army, an army of Maronite Christians. It has most certainly provided controlled intelligence to Morrocco, Tunisia, Jordan, Egypt and Turkey in regards to terrorist cells in the Middle East but that intelligence is carefully screened. When The Lebanese was broke out in 1982 the PLO or in fact Al Fatah since the other splinter cells of the PLO stayed behind in Lebanon, did what it did in Jordan and does best-it ran, only this time to Tunisia. There is a reason it went to Tunisia. Since 1964, Arafat had gained the protection of the French government. It was originally Charles DeGaulle, then Valerie Giscard D’Estaing, then Jaques Chirac who pursued the open agenda of the French government and its foreign policy to support the PLO and Al Fatah.. What had happened was drug politics at its best. Arafat came to create Al Fatah as a drug enforcement protection syndicate to protect the movement of brown heroin out of Afghanistan and Iran as well as Hash Hish from Lebanon which was sent to Marseilles, France and then on to the U.S. Arafat’s drug operations made billions and of course he was placing his money in French and Swiss banks and laundering the money by investing heavily in French business. France’s open association with the PLO then also gained it goodwill throughout the Arab world enabling it to sell its military weapons, chemical weapons and industrial technology basically shutting the rest of the West out as competitors. France did have inter-relationships with German business in regards to chemicals and so assisted Germany sell chemicals to both Iraq and Iran. When Hezbolla arose from the splinter cells engaged in terrorism against Israel, the Deuxieme Burea, China, North Korea and of course Iran funded it. How hippocritical was France. When Hezbollah killed French soldiers in Lebanon, within weeks the French were sending diplomats to the Hezbollah and France had no problem betraying the Maronite Christian Phelangistes, a right wing group which saw itself as loyal to France. When Arafat went to Tunisia, he did so because Tunisia is under French intellgence control. He went protected by the French. When he then turned on the Tunisian government and tried to overthrow them, France had no choice but to withdraw its support of him staying in Tunisia. While some splinter cells of the PLO and keep in minds there are 100’s of them, went to Yemen, Algeria, Iraq, the biggest unit was Al Fatah and this is the one the media inter-changes as being the PLO. Even Al Fatah is not a cohesive or centralized operation. It to is a series of cells including Force 17, the Hawari Special Operations Group, Tanzim and the Al Aqsa Marytrs Brigade. So for anyone to suggest you can fund terrorists by simply giving money to Hamas or the PLO is an idiot. These organizations are not centralized, they are rough coalitions of splinter cells all who distrust each other and compete with each other and would in fact turn on each other if they did not have Israel as their common enemy. It is a fact that in the 1960s and the 1970s, Fatah trained a wide range of European, Middle Eastern, Asian, and African terrorist and insurgent groups and Israel was called on by South Africa and other African countries to provide it assistance fighting them so to suggest Israel funded Al Fatah when its alliance with South Africa and Rhodesia fighting Al Fatah in Africa is a blatant well known fact is absolutely stupid. When Al Fatah engaged in acts of international terrorism in Western Europe and the Middle East in the 1970s. even the Deuxieme Bureau which was protecting the PLO had to take a back seat to other European nations whose police forces and intelligence units suddenly scrambled to try get rid of Al Fatah which was directly linked to terrorist cells in Spain, Germany, France and Britain. Also keep in mind to fund terrorism it doesn’t come from sinister Jews or Israelis. It comes from an elaborate organized crime syndicate that uses the sale of heroin, cocaine, hash hish, illegal drug medications, stolen property and identity theft as methods to raise money, It then funnels the money through dummy charities or companies. Al Fatah and the terrorist wing of Hamas have from day one been enemies because the Hamas terrorist cell feels that drugs of any kind are evil and feels Al Fatah does not follow the Muslim religion properly. Hamas’s military wing like its non military wing and many other splinter groups within the PLO feel Al Fatah is a corrupt organization that funneled money that should have gone to schools, hospitals, water systems and military weapons, to Swiss and French bank accounts where a corrupt clique of its leaders have become billionaires while the average Palestinian remains impoverished. The fact is you can not simplify the hundreds if not thousands of terrorist and non terrorist cells and units and groups operating outside official governments in the Middle East and mold them into a good guy and a bad guy and Israel as somehow manipulating them. It is an insult to anyone’s intelligence to suggest there are good and bad countries, or cohesive units. The landscape of the Middle East is a series of ever changing alliances of cells and groups each with a self-professed leader, and each changing their ideology at the blink of the eye. Stooges who read the inter-net and jump on newspaper articles that do not have the space or resources to properly research and explain who all these terrorist cells are, simply accept what they read verbatum and think the media is being accurate and can be accepted as is. Or they believe they can go on the internet and read from people with clear anti-Israel biases and simply accept what they say. What I do is to scower both sides of the picture and get as much information as possible directly from Al Fatah or Hamas then compare it to other sources. Most allegedly “Zionist” sources the stooges on this post claim to be Zionist use a technique that is deliberate-they go directly to Al Fatah and Hamas and whenever possible repeat these cell’s versions of themselves, and not contradict them. They have no reason to, terrorists do not speak of themselves in unassuming words. They describe themselves in terms that makes them sound powerful and almighty. The last thing Israel or any nation fighting terrorists wants is the notion they are fighting weaklings and so have no reason to change the description given by these groups. This is why I said to Larry, Curly and Moe to go directly to Hamas and Al Fatah web sites and find one thing I gave them that contradicts their own information-they won’t-it’s the same friggin information! The information only begins to change when stooges in the West start to rewrite it to match their preconceived political notions and need to have good and bad guys. I will say this one last time, only an idiot would suggest Muslim terrorists dedicated to the destruction of Israel would accept money from Mossad or Shin Bet who are dedicated to wiping them out and when-ever possible do just that. Now Muffy or Buffy or Scruffy or what-ever your name is, debate. Go find something to show the above is wrong.

No its not. Its the exact same information. Where the f..ck do you think it comes from. Man you are clueless. Man, you are so full of it... Once again you think you have a smoking gun Figleaf only it looks awful limp to me. Read the information. Its the same. It all comes from the same place. If you took the time to read it you would see it is all coming from the same place. Use your brain Figleaf. Stop jumping to conclusions based on the simplistic notion that the addresses you supplied because they are different necessarily use different information. Ia m threw wasting my energy on you. Your brain can't respond to anything unless its black and white.

"

Rue lies, again. But didn't yous say just a moment ago that there was NO funding or support for Hamas? This is the problem you're having, Rue... you can't seem to keep your story straight. And on that subject, will you please explain why you said www.palestinefacts.com is a Hamas website, when in fact its registered owner is the Zionist Organization of America? Figleaf the last time I told you to stop playing the fool you reported me. what are you doing now? How does supporting Hamas charities mean supporting Hamas. Come on spit it out. You have been caught and exposed and I have been completely clear and precise in explaining that the support Israel gave was not to Hamas but benevolent organizations it started. There is a huge difference and if you want to pretend there isn't all you do is prove you are an intellectual coward. Figleaf you and your troika treid to perpetuate a lie that Israel supported terrorism and you try to pass off aid to charities, schools, and hospitals as aid to either Hamas or its terrorist wing and for that you have zero credibility and your continuing to deny you got caught is a joke.

There is no point in indulging your mischaracterizations. What I wrote is all available for review. I asked you what you were saying about the relationship between the Islamic Association and Hamas. At no point did I assert anything about it. Go ahead and ACTUALLY QUOTE something that shows otherwise, if you can. Otherwise we'll chalk this whole series of your diatribes up as Just More Rue Lies. Speaking of which, how about you explain why you suggested the ZOA website at www.palestinefacts.com is connected to Hamas when that is clearly false. No its not. Its the exact same information. Where the f..ck do you think it comes from. Man you are clueless.

"....it was I who mentioned that Hamas was originally funded and backed by the Israeli Admin to counter the PLO. ..." And it was Figleaf and Higgly who couldn't resist getting in on the giggling and repeating what you said. But now that you have outed yourself welcome. The Three Stooegs are fully outed. Which one are you, Moe? "This is simple historical fact " Well "simple" yes, historic fact, no. "Anyway, anyone can simply google it and look it all up for themselves. " Perhaps if you did you wouldn't write in and prove you have no idea what you are saying by stating the above. "Or they can go to a library and peek at the records - it's there. Do it soon though, since history is being re-written daily." Well yes you are doing a half-assed job at trying to rewrite history to pretend the Islamic Association and Hamas are one and the same, and that Israel created and financed Hamas, and that Israel financed and supported Hamas's military wing and its terrorist activities. "Oh, yeah and even wiki (whom I don't usually cite - but so many on the extremist west do) states that originally Hamas was funded by Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas" So can you read what you quoted? Let's try help you read what you quoted; "Created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin of the Gaza wing of the Muslim Brotherhood at the beginning of the First Intifada...." "The military wing of Hamas, formed in 1992, is known as the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades to commemorate Sheikh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, the father of modern Arab resistance, " "However, various sources, among them United Press International,[49] Le Canard enchaîné, Bill Baar, Gérard Chaliand[50] and L'Humanité[51] have highlighted that Hamas' early growth — before its official founding and the creation of the military branch — had been supported by the Mossad as a "counterbalance to the Palestine Liberation Organization" "Hamas' first use of suicide bombing occurred on April 16, 1993". What you have done is evidence precisely the point I was making. You skip all the information that indicates when Hamas was founded or the fact its military or terrorist wing didn't come to power in 19922 or that the first suicide bombings by Hamas' terrorist wing was in 1993, and prior to that it was NOT engaged in terrorism or violence against Israel. You ignore the time lines right in front of you that show your assumption of support couldn't have happened, and jump to a conclusion without reading the newspaper articles you think prove your assumption. Had you even bothered to read those article syou would see they at NO time sugested the suport was for guns or military activities. More to the point Israel's support of Yashin did not start in 1987 and if you researched properly and educated yourself you would understand Hamas came about in 1987 but before that eYashin headed the Islamic Association and it was the Association Israel funded and continued to support not Hamas in 1987. After 1987 what is referred to as Israeli financial support of Hamas is an interchangeable phrase which if more accurately explained would in fact state Israel funded and supported not the actual Hamas organization, but the hospitals, schools and benevolent organizatoons of the non military or terrorist arm of Hamas. The money wasn't given to Hamas but directly to Hamas' schools, hospitals and organizations. That was done right out in the open by the Israeli military civil administration and deliberately out in the open as a propaganda attempt to show Palestinians if they refrained from violence Israel would help them. Shin Bet and Mossad in fact continued to intercept any weapons going to the military wing of Hamas which until 1992, as in fact splinter cells, not a cohesive unit. Get your "historic facts" right once and for all. Hamas came about in 1987. Yashin existed prior to that and so did the Islamic Association which was a major Sunni organization in Lebanon and dates back to former Egptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser's efforts to unify the Arab world in 1964, with the Islamic Association's original identity the Association of the Worshipers of the Compassionate which then established the Islamic Association in Tripoli. After the failed 1967 Arab attack against Israel, the Islamic Association and other Islamist groups frew and evolved and during Lebanon's civil war of 1975-1990), the Islamic Association's militia, was known as the Mujahidin. It was Fathi Yakan, whoa dvocated Sayyid Qutb's radical brand of Islamist thought, who was the main person whos haped the Islamic Association's charter and beliefs. It was Yakan who joined with Sa'id Hawwa of Syria's Muslim Brethren as a result of the failed war fo 1967 who then called for a jihad against the Western and Israel. It was at that time The Islamic Association first formulated the idea that it needed to wipe out Israel and impose an Islamic order based on the Shari'a and a jihad. Get your facts right. Hamas, means "zeal" or "fervour" in Arabic, and is an acronym for the full term Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya, or Islamic Resistance Movement. The group was founded as an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt and offshoot of the Islamic Association. It was not and is not the Islamic Association and never was the Islamic Association and when you read get it straight that the fact that certain sources use the word Hamas and Islamic Association as if they are the same doesn't make it so just as saying the Muslim Brotherhood is Hamas is not true. Here you want to read newspaper quotes out of context then make a point of understanding what it is you are jumping on and is assuming proves historic fact; When Richard Sale, a UPI Correspondent, later paraphrased by the French press and others planted the story that former U.S. intelligence officials told him that , beginning in the late 1970s, that Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years....he was in fact repeating a a story given to him by Mossad precisely because Mossad wanted it made clear it was supporting non violent Palestinians and it was working. Sale like the French press used the word Hamas and Islamic Association interchangeably just like the Western Press uses the word PLO interchangeably for over 180 organizations within that group all with different heads and ideologies. But you have to make it a point not to be lazy and find out what it is they were talking about and what in fact it is they said they were funding. Mossad never stated it paid for guns or funded guns. what they said and admitted is public fact. Their intercepting of guns going to terrorist cells in Hamas is a fact. They arrested and assassinated terrorist cell members in Hamas from 1987 onwords. In your zeal to see what you want to see and act like a know it all you have ignored the time lines and figure it out that since Hamas did not exist before 1987 Israel couldn't possibly have supported terrorism prior to 1987, and when the Islamic Association morphed into Hamas, Israel continued to support its benevolent organizations but not Hamas directly and there is a huge difference funding charities and schools as opposed to you having the ignorance to suggest it was terrorists they were funding. The hostoric facts and the time lines you ignore can not be rewritten and hide the fact that the terrorist wing of Hamas came about slowly through splinter cells and then was not organized in one unit until 1992 and did not and when it first engaged in terror against israel 1993. You want to lecture people on going to the library and finding out for themselves the true facts, then do just that and have the integrity to admit you are mistaken. It is an historic fact fully documented and on record if you bother to take the time to properly rad and learn that according to ICT papers, Hamas was legally registered in Israel in 1978 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the movement's spiritual leader, not with the name HAMS but as an Islamic Association with the name Al-Mujamma al Islami. Hamas did not come about until 1987 and its terrorist wing against Israel in fact came about in 1992. You want facts-educate yourself. From 1980-89, the CIA provided covert aid to Afghanistan in order to destabilise the Soviet Union-it financed and armed the most extreme of the mujahidin groups, including Osama bin Laden’s Al Qaeda network, fighting the Soviet backed Afghan regime in Kabul. You want facts read the documents released in France by French writers showing the Deuxieme Bureau fundedIt is a fact Al Fatah and the PLO and turned on the Christian Maronites and Pelangiste in Lebanon in favour of the Islamic Association while Israel allied with the Christian Maronites. It is a fact Hamas' military wing was never t anytime directly or indirectly funded by Israel but in fact by Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria and China. Hamas' military wing would never have accepted Israeli funding nor would Hamas directly and in fact the way Israel got its funding to the charities, schools and non profit organizations was through Palestinian civil servants and the teachers it employed-it could not give anything directly to a Hamas organization but had to do it through a Palestinian who was not in Hamas otherwise it would have been rejected. Just because you want to pretend the Islamic Association is the same as Hamas does not make it so. Just because you want to pretend Israel supported Hamas when it in fact funded and supported its charities not Hamas can not be revised by you to suggest it funded Hamas or for that matter Hamas's military wing. This is precisely why I have contempt for you giggling, coughing triple threat. You think you have got it all figured out but you are too lazy to make an effort to find out what actually went down. By doing so you promulgate the crude anti-semitic charictature that Israelis are dishonest, and so evil they would even fund people who would kill their own citizens just to torment and abuse Palestinians. For that you are a displicable coward. You are a coward because you smeer and piss upon the true historic fact and that is Palestinians and Israelis worked together and achieved peace and they can do it again and yes Israelis were willing to work with people who hated them if they did not engage in violence and they demonstrated that fact and this demonstrates they were not evil but wanted to do what was right even if it meant heping people who hated them. Have the integrity to research what it was Israel funded before you get on this forum and try suggest it was terrorism because your read an article that says it funded Hamas so that can automatically mean terrorism. Take the articles you think said Israel supported terrorism, go on take them and read them. Not one of those articles provided any information or proof that the support was for terrorism. Put up or shut up. Provide as the proof Israel funded terrorists or come back on this post and admit you are a poser and were mistaken. Get it right. When the Intifada erupted in December 1987, the main source of resistance to Israel was NOT the Islamic Association or the PLO or Hamas (Hamas did not exist) it was in fact angry Palestinian workers and youth who did not have jobs. The Islamic Association which rpeached non violence now found itself faced with Al Fatah, Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front For the LIberation of Palestine who sat back and used these angry workers and youth to engage istreet violence and if need be die. Faced with children fighting and sometimes dying in the streets the Islamic Association feeling it was losing lose control of its people to the Unified National Leadership Union (UNLU), which the PLO had set up to co-ordinate and control the uprising, created the Islamic Resistance Movement, known by its acronym Hamas. This is not what Mossad or Shin Bet supported and in fact when this Islamic Resistance Movement was formed, Mossad and Shin Bet were very up front and blatant about funding schools, hospitals, municipal councils, not any military wing or resistance movement which has been inter-changeably mixed in as being one and the same with what Israel was supporting. In fact as this militant wing began to evolve between 1987 and 1992, it did not engage in violence with Israel it fought Al Fatah and when you read articles that said Mossad and Shib Bet wanted to support Hamas against Al Fatah to destabilize of course it did but not by giving it guns that would be turned on Israel but with keeping Palestinians employed so they would not feel the need to riot and this is precisely why Mossand and Shin Bet intercepted gun shipments to any or all organizations and in fact Israel's funding of Hamas's scools and charities were done out in the open through its military civil administration and were never a secret. Get it straight. Hamas did not until its military wing in 1993 engaged in terrorism engage inaction against the Israeli occupation authorities and this is precisely why Israel did not interfere with Hamas-organised strikes. I It is a fact that then Israeli Defence Minister Yitzhak Rabin even had talks with leading Islamists in the summer of 1988 including the non militant wing of Hamas BUT never spoke with any terrorist or person who at that time had stated he was engaged in terrorism against Israel. It is the utmost dishonesty and it is cowardly to suggest any Israeli let alone Mossad or Shin Bet or any Israeli government official would knowingly pay or fund someone who would commit terrorism against its people. Did you notice your friend Figleaf now denies he ever suggested Islamic Association and Hamas were the same and feigns innocence. Are you a virgin too? Seems to me all I see is a bad case of political herpes. as an Islamic political party dedicated to national liberation in order to divert the energies of the Palestinian working class and channel it along religious lines. Its Covenant, published in August 1988, essentially it’s founding charter, blended nationalism with religion and naked anti-Semitism.

Well that backfired on you! Your record on this thread so far includes pretending a Zionist Organization of America website is run by Hamas, and being caught in a blatant contradiction about how Hamas came to be. You Lie. I made no such representations. You Lie. I didn't make any representation on this subject, I simply asked what you were trying to say. The record on this thread is very clear that it is you who twists the truth. But actually, I find that completely possible. Why do you feel the need to falsely impute non-existent positions or emotions to me? Don't you understand that doing so is a type of dishonestly? The problem with your assertions has already been noted. You may review the thread if you are still curious. I don't know, and have not asserted, that Israel financed Hamas. Your intense emotionalism on this topic evidently leave you unable to grasp the comments of your interlocutors. Actually, the website you said was Hamas' belonged to a completely different organization. This is a problem you have not yet answered. You Lie. In fact, I don't even regard it as a 'smear' for someone to be a Zionist. There are lots of perfectly acceptable ways and means to go about being Zionist or supporting Zionism. Already did. Q.V. above. Quote one for me then. Lie. Quote any comment in my entire posting history that contains anti-semitism. If you can't then it is proven that you have lied, in a dirty shitty way, AGAIN. Yet another dirty lie. The intellectual cowardice is all on you, making up and imputing positions that other posters don't hold and have never said is dishonest and the sign of a weak argument. Too bad. Your misrepresentations and prevarictions, your walls of dilatory text, and your lies about other posters don't amuse me. So now Figleaf in between howls of self-righteous indignation you suggest you never inferred Israel supported Hamas or inferred the Islamic Association and Hamas were the same? AHahahah. A new way to use vasoline. Better break the news to the rest of your posse. There is an old "Zionist" expression that may be appropriate here and it says; " the more someonme tells you what a virgin they are , the more tangible proof you are getting that they have a bad case of syphilis they are trying to spread.

The purpose Figleaf was to expose you as lacking any credibility and showing wyoumade false misrepresentations and inferences that the Islamic Association and Hamas are the same and that Israel funded or created Hamas. The point was Figleaf to show clearly with objective evidence that the military wing of Hamas and the Islamic Association were never one and the same adn Israel only supported benevolent activities. The point Figleaf was to show you smeared Israel with a misrepresentation trying to suggest they are hippocrates and are so devoid of morality they even will support a terrorist organization dedicated to their destruction just because that is what Israelis do-manipulate because they are evil and dishonest. The point is Figleaf you are never satisfied unless you try and promulgate the image of Israel as insincere and manipulative. The point is you Figleaf are so insincere you are willing to twist the truth because you can't possibly handle the fact that Israel could and did support people who hated it knowing they hated them precisely because that group, the Islamic Association denounced violence and did good things with the money. The point is Figleaf Israel is willing to support people and yes people who hate it, if those people refrain from violence and help their people because Israel is so desperate for peace its willing to take a chance on anyone willing to refrain from violence. The point is Figleaf my responses were intended to expose you and Higgly for being transparent with your false assumptions and inferences and righteous giggling. Spit it out Figleaf. Show us what I provided was drivel. Show us Figleaf. Show us your facts to suggesting Israel financed and created Hamas. I provided you articles Figleaf by Hamas explaining the origins preciselly because it is your m.o. to smeasr anyone youd isagree with as a Zionist only now Figleaf you not I are contradicting Hamas. Spit it out Figleaf show us one thing I said that is contradictory. Tell us all. Show us your facts. Provide us the information that Israel created supported Hamas's military wing and not the Islamic Association. Provide us the evidence of have the intellectual integrity to crawl off and giggle elsewhere. You got caught again Figleaf making false inferences and of course someone like Higgly will jump on your band wagon-ah we caught Israel lying we caught Israel shape shifting we caught Israel being manuplative-the only thing you caught Figleaf was another dose of your transparent anti-semitism and its anti-semitic Figleaf because you cling to a stereotype of Israelis as being manipulative, sinister and dishonest which flows from the image of the Jew as a behind the scenes wheeling and dealing manipulator. That is what this is really about and you know what some of us see through it and will stand up and expose it for what it is-hatred. Here is the point Figleaf and no amount of your intellectual cowardice can change that fact-Israel and the Islamic Alliance did good things and were able to achieve peace and good things for both their people when there was no terrorism. That was the point Figleaf and something you are too blind with hatred to ever accept.Now back away. You do not amuse me.