Temagami Scourge

Does anyone remember the very first post of Scriblett's? The one that started this thread about the NewYorkcrimwatch site, and how it linked natives to all manner of criminality? Well, it has since come to light that it was a non-Native person owning and operating the site, and the site is now defunct. why? Because of this: http://www.caledoniawakeupcall.com/documents/GRE.pdf

River: On a related note, I found a reference to the time back in 1924 when the Feds and Mounties came onto Six Nations and dissolved the Confederacy government and insituted their own. You will find this historical tidbit of interest. This comes from A.C. Parkers The Constitution Of The Five Nations or The Iroquios Book Of The Great Law. , and it is the minutes recorded by Hereditary Coucil Secretary Arthur Anderson .Mohawk they are kept in part from Oct 7, 1924 - Feb 4 1941 (The editor's footnotes are included to provide some insight into that time.) Agricultural Hall (3) Oct 7th 1924 General Council of the Chiefs of the Six Nations was held at the Agrl Hall, the Council House being under repairs, opened in due form by Chief Ger. Davis one of the Fire Keepers. Present Col.CE Morgan Supt. (Indian Agent) Mr HM Hill Clerk Indian Office Chief JC Hill Acting Speaker Chief C Garlow Deputy Speaker DS Hill Secretary and 19 Chiefs with about a score of RCMP accompanying Agent Morgan. The Agent read a lengthy proclamation desolving the Six Nations Council of Chiefs and appointing a day for an election day under a clause of the Indian Act. (1) Re late Wm Johnson's estate The secretary read letter from the Indian Office,brantford, notifying the chiefs of its disapproval of a decision in reference to the disposition of the estate. The Council re-affirmed its decision of 2nd Sept last and instructed the Secretary to make out a full report giving reasons upon which the Chiefs decided to dispose of the property. (4) The Council decided to approve of a Lease entered into between Jacob Lewis and Ellen Jamieson Lessors and Sahag Balia Lessee of the 5 1/2 Lot,No. 29. Con 1 Tuscarora, for 5 years, rent payable in advance. Mrs. Susan Hill's application for the gaurdianship of the infant children of Ida Gibson, deceased so that she may recieve the rents from the property of the orphan children for their benefit. The Council decided to appoint the grandmother Susan Hill, gaurdian of the infant children of Ida Gibson. Mrs Wm Maracle, widow, to be notified to pay Mrs.Nicholas Maracle with-in 30 days, otherwise the estate will be held liable according to a former decision and agreement entered into by her husband Wm Maracle, deceased. Re Alex. Joseph loan The Council decided to procure a full statement of the loan from the Indian Office in reference to the loans of Joseph and Wilson Butler for consideration at the next General Council. The Quit Claim of Chas Green was held over for further consideration. (5) The account of H Percy Green $44.76 for extras on his contract repairing the Doctor's Stables was ordered paid. The Account of Harry Martin $4.00 for putting down a drain from the conductors on the Council House,passed. The Council decided to pass the account of the Secretary for services for two years at $500.00 per annum as agreed upon at the time of his engagement in October 1922. In the meantime the Council's Treasurer, Chief Chancy garlow to advance him what money he may have to be refunded by the Secretary when the Dpartment issue a cheque in his favor, as the Chiefs fullt understand that the Secretary cannot carry on without some advance. Repairs to No 9 School The Council decided to instruct the Inspector of Works to make an inspection and if found necessary to have repairs made at once. Will of the late Peter Newhouse The Council reaffirmed its former decision in approving the Will. The Council Then adjourned to the 21st inst at the UCL House (2) at 10 AM. DS Hill Secy. (6) Editors Footnotes (1)--- Although their council had just been dissolved by superintendent Morgan's reading of the proclamation the Chiefs took no notice and continued session. Not only did they continue regular business (approvals of a lease to a non-indian, a gaurdianship, an estate settlement, and payment of bills, as well as an order for possible school repairs), they also decided to request the Indian Office for information on loans by two Band members.All this activity was now beyond their authority, that had passed into history.However, the new situation was soon manifest as is reflected in the minutes. Council business quickly shifts from that of a government tending its jurisdiction, to one occupied with little else than matters addressing its reinstatement ; petitions, delegations, lawyers. After 67 years and a complete replacement of individuals, regular Councils continue. Community guidelines on matters of the day are printed in the reserve newspaper, native rights and interests at both Six Nations and other iroquios territories are monitored; the Chiefs remain as a shadow government which will not be ignored. A committee established to evaluate community opinion regarding the re-establishment of local control of elementary education recently announced that its final recommendations will "be submitted to both Councils at Six Nations"; this is new behaviour. The 1990 crisis among the Kanesatake Mohawks at Oka Quebec promoted a request for the Chiefs intervention from Canadian Government officials. This was significant to the Chiefs faction which saw it as an important recognition of their system's survival and authority. Under the six-year leadership of Chief Councillor Wm Montour (resigned three months before the end of his third two-year term,Septmember 9 1991) efforts at reconciliation were made by the elected council. The Chiefs, however, interpreting various recent signals and approaches to them, anticipate an imminent restoration and an end to the imposed elected system. (2) UCL House = Upper Cayuga Longhouse also known as " Sour Springs Longhouse" (see January 20, 1925) (3) This was also the date of the first Indian Act election at Six Nations, protested further in the entry. (4) Two in a succession of attorneys retained by the Chiefs. Also mentioned are J R O Johnson and George Decker (an American who worked with the New York State Iroquios); contact with a Wm Johnson in England is also recorded. (5) In my files is the record of a late 19th Century introduction by the Chiefs of dog licensing,no longer in effect.The Chiefs appear to have accepted the concept of raising money in the community through direct and indirect taxation.It would be informative to review the pre-1924 Minute books to determine to what degree this subject, now taboo at Six Nations, had been advocated and applied.Weaver has interesting material on the degree to which council (by then predominantly Christian) was willing to integrate the Reserve into the Canadian system: The Conservative Party under Sir John A. Macdonald gave indians the right to vote in federal elections in 1885. Although council officially urged residents not to exercise their franchise, individual chiefs of the upper tribes (Mohawk,Oneida,Tuscarora) became heavily involved in local campaining....In 1898 when the liberals withdrew the franchise,because the indians had supported the Conservative party, the council unsuccessfully petitioned to have it returned (sally Weaver: Six Nations of the Grand River, Ontario" ,p 532 IN Handbook of North American Indians, Vol, 15, 1978,pp 525-536: WGS). A Photo of a 1920's Tax certificate issued by the Six Nations Confederacy (NY) can be seen on page 75 of The Iroquios and The New deal, L M Hauptman,1981. (6) The Position of Permanent Speaker was created by the Chiefs in 1858,it was not established in the Constitution(p33.section 14); with their removal from authority the role lapsed. The first incumbent was Chief John Smoke Johnson, grandfather of poet E Pauline Johnson. The deputy Speaker appeared in the 1870's and, following proper Iroquios reciprocal ceremonial form, was usually from the side of Council opposite the speaker. The first Secretary (1880-1915) was Chief Josiah Hill (a nanticoke) (Weaver, p 528, 533) The absent Speaker in the minutes was Cayuga Chief, Deskahe (Levi General) who was with lawyer Decker in Geneva, Switzerland attempting to lobby the League Of Nations against the anticipated coup.

River: Again, this point is moot too, if people decide to accept citizenship in an Aboriginal Nation. the important thing is that we would all have to live by the same laws, and the unique point is that the people themselves would define those laws. Language issues would also be moot. The Confederacy brought together Nations with different languages anyway, so we would still use a common language for business, and use whatever language we want at home or in the communities. I'd even suggest english as the common language because it is already. But no one would be forced to adhere to a particular language.

River: River, don't lump me in with other Native "sovreignists". I want to see a sovreign association similar to Quebec's plan. As far as democratic rights are concerned, you could very well be right. I prefer the Confederacy model, where everyone was taken in as an Onkwehonwe regardless of skin colour, and everyone was able to participate in the body politic. Unlike other natives, I have no problem adopting any people from anywhere who wish to become part of the Confederacy. That is a historical norm. The Confederacy long adopted white and Black people...and many rose to positions of prominence, which was absolutely not the case in their's neighbour's society, where women weren't allowed to vote, and black people were slaves. New confederacy members would sit with the clan that adopted them. They would select clan mothers whose role would be to condole the Clan Chiefs. Any citizen can approach their clan mother and tell them their concerns, or complain about an impotent clan Chief. If an adoptee is communally noted for being a kind and thoughful person, they could themselves assume the roles of clan mothers or clan Chiefs. In this case, majority rules becomes moot as the clan mothers are forced to accept the will of the majority, or they are removed themselves. Geez....canada could learn something from this. ..and the funny thing is that there would be no voting. None at all. no votes for candidates. No ideology to wave like a flag. No democracy as you thinly define it. But all would have a voice, all could become leaders, and all would be responsible to the community they serve. Irresponsible leaders would be removed by the clan mothers, and another put in their place. If that is such a bad system (and unfortunately I'm not going into greater detail to save time), then i'm sorry that it doesn't match the current greek-originated system that you prefer. This point becomes rather moot considering my take on things. I would like to point out that, having increased our numbers substantially, we would institute our own tax system and not worry about transfer payments and the like. You and the rest of Canada can keep your money. Although it would be funny (haha) talking about Cauco-Iroquois, or Afro-Iroquois, and Sino-Iroquois.

Blue: Thanks for providing a breath of fresh air on this thread. Although I may not agree entirely with what you say, you're one of the first people to come here and not spout off about how Natives were beaten (in some non-existent war) or that we need to thank Cauco-Canadians for "everything they've given us" or whine about taxes or lack thereof. That is appreciated. I would prefer to see a form of sovreignty association vaguely similar to what the last PQ government was proposing, but for Aboriginal people. I know that there is much that all Canadians can offer each other, and this has contributed to Canadian success over the years. My main opposition is the idea that Canada "gives" natives people anything. Everything we are "given" has been paid for (many times over) through trading the land. However, when the treaties were signed, those negotiations focussed exclusively on the land and the rights and benefits accruing from it in perpetuity. THe right to govern ourselves, and to determine who is a member of our Nation was never signed away, nor discussed. That is all after-the-fact legislation incorporated into the Indian Act. Secondly, when I talk sovereignty, I'm not talking about creating a series of independant mini-states across Canada. Although the first thing you hear from some people is that "Native land" will turn into a refuge for criminals and a base for other criminal activity, put the shoe on the other foot and think that Natives don't want that either. We don't want hordes of criminals running onto our land to escape Canadian law, and criminal activity would be curtailed by our own police forces (one of the normal duties of a warrior). these police can train alongside non-native police forces, and I don't believe that the laws will differ as much as people believe they would. Likewise, we don't want to see criminals from our communities escape justice by running to the nearest city, just as you would prefer not to see them there, hiding from the law. The main problem is that the Canadian ethos seems to demand that Cauco-canadian intervention is needed at every level, instead of actually asking the native people if any assistance is desired. Once that bugaboo is overcome, then we can rise or fall on our own volition. Removal of the Indian Act is pertinent. The Indian Act violates many native laws. For instance, under the Act, I'm allowed to hunt anywhere within a vast treaty area with no restriction. However, under traditional law, I am only allowed to hunt within my family grounds (about 300 to 400 sq. miles), and I'm responsible for the maintenance of that area. I cannot hunt anywhere else without the express permission of an adjoining family, and I certainly couldn't hunt on another Nation's territory without the same permission. However, the Indian Act violates that, and leaves Natives powerless to punish their people who take too much, or are wasteful. Additionally, I'd want to see land management changed. The European manner of creating square townships might work wonderfully on flat land, but nature does not operate according to large squares. Watersheds are crucial, and boundaries created should follow watershed lines for ease of land management. However, following the European model of putting boundaries down the middle of bodies of water is senseless in this land. That is why Ottawa gets to drink Hull's dung, and Toronto gets to draw water from the filthy effluent the Yankess put into the Niagara river. Land management based on watershed may not look neat on a map, but it would serve to better manage what goes in the water, where the sources are, and force accountability on the local population. I'd like to go on, but my kid needs my computer. Later.

I have been skipping over the exchanges because the amount of trash talk made it next to impossible to find any intelligent discourse (assuming there was any). Well, the important thing is that Truth and Justice are still standing rock solid, while baseless invective has begun to decline...and in at least one case, leave altogether. On the positive side River, at least you're coherent. Still tiresome, but at least coherent. You're welcome.

White mens jobs: Here is a sampling of what I said (taken from your own post): you vile, racist in-breed you disgusting piece of hog vomit. You are not only a filthy, disgusting bigot, but also a semi-literate retard. you pathetic racist fool you disgusting piece of trash you vile racist you, you filthy, disgusting racist a vile, filthy racist you pathetic racist trash you disgusting, perverse bigot I freely admit that I wrote this. I was writing replies to White Men's jobs aka Who's doing what White mens Jobs (aka Who's doing what) has written this: Hell I bet your even part white. It is the perception of all things "white", the term european could be used just as easily, First Immigrants just bring the issue of race when they want to benifit from it. You are the biggest Racist here Buckwheat. question is what the f*ck are these supposed proud First Immigrants who want to protect their culture and whatever other bullshit you want to throw in there, doing working a "white-mans" job? Why did they bother with getting a "white-man's" education? Well enjoy your "white-man's" house, and your "white-mans" computer, and your "white-mans" clothes You b*tch go back to your tipi's, long houses and stone tipped spears why don't you From my perspective, I see nothing in my words that insults or belittles anyone's race. The only thing that has anything even remotely to do with race is the term "racist". However, reviewing White mens' jobs quips gives us a clear indication of how he regards Native Canadians. Does anyone disagree? River? Brad? (oops...brad got mad and left) Chuck? Scriblett? anyone? P.S. does anyone know what a first Immigrant is? That is new to me.

Response to Brad's very last post on this thread ever: Look, Brad, you come up with this “we won, so you do as we say” crap that has no basis in reality, other than to indicate that Cauco-Canadians should be thanked for not steamrolling natives into abject submission. You have no clue as to history, and make judgements on that clueless base. Feed me crap, and I’ll give it right back. Additionally, what war were we beaten in the led to the surrender of Canada? You implied that we lost, so what war is it, or is that baseless imagination at work too? You are non-plussed because I resort to historical facts and current realities that render your arguments as baseless and feeble, and that upsets you. Well, that’s your problem. You are not an exception in any way, other than the type of person that I constantly run into online who thinks that the world owes white people a debt of gratitude, and when I say who do we thank for getting raped, then you get upset because you forgot that was part of your legacy, as much as building roads are. OK Brad…let’s talk about the now. What do you think happens to people who were raped as kids? If they don’t kill themselves, then the chances that they do the same thing to their kids or other’s kids increases. The victims in turn become abusers, and this goes on and on and on because of the policies the Crown sets for Natives. That means that, although great,great,great grandpa was raped by a priest, the ongoing effect means that people in the current generation are negatively impacted by their predecessor. Hence, I’m left to deal with the detritus of a circumstance that occurred long ago, and still reverberates in my community, while you try to tell me to forget about it and thank you. Do you see my point? Then go look for stuff Natives did in the past. Show me where we subjected your people to untold abuse as a matter of policy, and don’t bring up wartime stuff because things that occur in war are the result of reactions. No, I’m talking peacetime. Secondly, why do you feel that I need an Indian Act to abide by? That is in the past too, but it is still very much in the books. Therefore, this crap about “talking about the here and now” is yet another attempt to ignore the 800lb gorilla in the room. Brad….you did not make your statement that way when you first posted it. In fact, this is how you put it: “Really what the natives have in their favour is public opinion. It is a black mark on our country to have a group, on average, completely unable to rescue itself from poverty despite the extra help already provided. I think most Canadians desperatly want to see natives better off and support land claims in the hopes that it might help the native populations and remove this blackmark on Canada.” Boy…you say we are incapable, and then want to help us, instead of being considered an equal. Why don’t you consider us equals Brad? Here, let me refresh your memory with your own words: "I wonder if they would be singing the same tune if we cut them off from all the benefits of being Canadian and all the extra goodies we give out to the native population." Or this one: "I think being the victorious power over a conquered group actually gives us the upper hand in negotiation. We dont really have to negotiate anything. Its only because of our benevolence that anything goes the other way." Victorious? What war Brad? I’ve asked and asked and asked, and yet you’ve said nothing except to confer “victory” on yourself. Even later in your recent post, you say this: No I said if they increase their demands the government ought to say no because this country belongs to everyone. How can you say that now when we were a conquered people only a few pages ago? You flit from position to position faster than George Michael looking for the men’s room. No Brad…It doesn’t appear that I’m the problem. The problem is you don’t know what you are talking about, or that your history comes from cowboy movies. I’m not responding to the rest of this post because it is another fine example of useless and repetitive hyperbole. Good riddance. Next time you want to match wits with me, remember to bring your brains.

White mens jobs: You are the biggest Racist here Buckwheat. The fact you are apparently too self absorbed and deluded to realize it, is the biggest joke on these boards. If I’m such a joke you vile, racist in-breed, then why aren’t you ignoring me? Do you know that “buckwheat” is a term used mainly on black people? Heck…if you are looking at jokes, I’d have to say you are because you can’t even get your racial epithets right, you disgusting piece of hog vomit. Speaking of garnering credibility, it would help yours if you didn’t resort to using foul language in your sentences. It tells us that you’ve likely just stepped out of your trailer. Try using your Native language like I do, you pathetic racist fool. I’m not the one going on and on about special privileges based on race. That seems to be you, Brad and river. I defend treaty rights based on the rationale that we were here to greet your ancestors. We could be polka-dot and that wouldn’t change that fact you filthy racist sycophant. They did, but they didn’t think that eventual generations of Cauco-Canadians would violate the agreements. I can’t point to one treaty violation made on the part of Aboriginal people, but we don’t have enough Gigs to list the treaty violations committed by your people. What? Your Grandfather was a treaty signator? Not bloody likely, so things aren’t as you assume them to be you disgusting racist. How many times do you need to be told. You are the racist. It is you who says his people deserve something because of their race. Do you put crack in yuor peace pipe or what? Because you sound like a crackhead. Personal insults highlight a lack of ability to argue or otherwise state a case. In my case, my personal insults are specifically the result of you making overtly racist statements, so the most you can accuse me of is pissing you off, you vile bigot. The company is owned by Native people from Six Nations. You are so racist that you actually thought GRE was run by whites? You are not only a filthy, disgusting bigot, but also a semi-literate retard. Oh…btw, I mean no offence to any mentally-challenged people who may be reading this. I did not mean to insult you by including you in the same company as White Mens Jobs. My apologies. If you say so. Possibly. I wouldn’t call you an isolated people though. No. I would agree that we would do everything in our power to work through the system, provided you live up to your side of the agreements you disgusting piece of trash. Retarded racists meat puppet"? You really should quit looking in the mirror when you post. You are mixing me up with you. I’d have to crawl over my dying mother to do my sister before I could hope to match you on your level. You show me where I said anything about “native-only” jobs , or houses, or cars, or trailerparks and you can include me in your ranks, you vile racist. Yeah…E-Q-U-A-L-I-T-Y. So…where is the “White Act” that determines how you live and breathe? Why weren’t Natives allowed to vote until the 1950’s, so they could have had some input into policies and laws that impact exclusively on us? After your government set things up so the Natives were behind the eight-ball for a hundred plus years, thus allowing your people to benefit from the fat of the land, You telling me that we are equal is like challenging me to a 100-yard dash, with you having a 95-yard headstart. If we were so “equal”, then why do you refer to me as a native and not a Canadian? I doubt you’d want successive generations of your family getting raped by priests and reverends just so you could call yourselves our “equal”. Give me a break…your equality means taking away our rights and letting us remain impoverished and without access to our land, you disgusting bigot. Yes I am pissing you off, otherwise you’d be ignoring my lame arguments. Show me one post where I make a racist statement about Cauco-canadians….just one! Until that moment, the only racist person remains you, you filthy, disgusting racist. No it couldn’t. There are black Europeans, brown Europeans, Asian Europeans, so the term “European” in now way applies solely to white people. Only a vile, filthy racist would think that way. No, I’m the one saying that the people who were here since time immemorial have certain rights and restrictions not shared by newcomers like yourself. You make the claim that this is a race issue. I make the claim that this is a “who was here first” issue, you pathetic racist trash. Wow..look at Mr. “I’m-not-a-racist” saying that I’m part white. What is it with racists like yourself? You always have to infer race, you disgusting, perverse bigot.

chuck...they don't consent to a mountie being stationed there, they have no choice in the matter. The Mounties play tough guy and force these demands on the company. I've explained that all earlier. I just don't get why you feel the need to promote violence as a course of action. Our first intent may be confrontational, but it is always peaceful confrontation. As far as Caledonia goes, it has been the police and certain drunken townies that started the violence. we just happened to finish it. Sorry.

brad: What kind of fool do you take me for? I've oft-said to those who are disturbed about Natives getting" 8 billion dollars" that the vast majority of that money goes to fund the INAC bureaucracy and pay for infratstructure, not to mention payment of municipal utilities on abutting reserve lands, like in regina and Vancouver, where reserves are in the downtown core. I've already proven your penchant for lying by showing you up on your claim that I want to drive people off the land, so I guess that you can't stop there with the lies and innuendo.

Brad (3): .Yes…but if it wasn’t for the manner in which the Cauco-canadians cared for the resource in the first place, then there would be enough fish to go around? Your people’s idea that natural resources are infinite is not only foolish, but irresponsible. That’s why this country ranks fourth in the world at using resources…because you think that everything grows on trees. Look at the fishers and how well they cared for the East coast fishery…and I’ll tell you that it wasn’t Native policies that made the cod disappear. In the grand scheme of things, I’d prefer to look like a homeless person than a serial killer, mass murderer and a rapist. That doesn’t sound too dumb to me, now does it. All I know is that I hear many people here talking about what “Canadians” feel, and it became obvious at the racist march that the “Canadians” that share your feelings happen to be entirely Cauco-Canadian, whereas the “Canadians” at the potluck were a mix of many races found in Canada. This tells me that your views represent a small portion of the population, whereas mine are far broader than I thought previously. Correction…Cauco-canadian public opinion may turn. I’d like to see a bit more representation of people of colour in your ranks before you get all “Canadian” on me. Of course, playing the race card when you don’t get your way at a strip mall because of the “nasty Koreans” doesn’t help your cause, but at least you get to feel all indignant, eh? Buddy; you have only told me that natives need to be steamrolled into submission. You’ve offered no argument on changes to laws (unless it helps steamroll Natives), or changes to policy (unless it helps steamroll Natives), you tell me that you want negotiations when your own government tries to sell the land in question before negotiations are even complete, you expect me to thank you for allowing my ancestors to be raped as children, and to top that off, you tell me that whites breaking the law with impunity is OK, while Natives using their treaty rights are bad, and that one spoiled fish is the moral equivalent of the damage done to our lakes and rivers and our natural resources by Cauco-canadians since your ancestors first arrived. What kind of fool do you take me for? You’re damn right I’m using hyphenated-Canadians. For years I’ve heard Cauco-Canadians refer to themselves as “Canadians”, while they refer to Afro-Canadians as “Jamaicans”, and to Native Canadians as “Indians” or “first Nations”. The day I hear one of you say “Oh…did you hear about Dudley George, that poor Canadian fellow killed by the OPP at Ipperwash?” is the day I’m Canadian. What…you dare call me a liar and dishonest, and then say that I preach the removal of non-Natives from the land!? Show me where –on any post I’ve made- I’ve said non-natives should be driven off the land! I have never once said that or even implied that. Now we get to see who the real liar is. In fact, you have yet to tell me what war the Indians lost that led to the surrender of Canada. What is the name of that war? Why don’t you answer me? I take the time to go through your material and answer your points, but you lie about me and refuse to answer my questions!

Brad (2) Yes, and the other clear difference is that my THREE examples all speak to the fact you’re your people have a penchant for breaking the law, and then whining about Native rights. What is the difference? Natives are exercising their rights in the public domain, while Cauco-canadians go around breaking the law with impunity? What kind of argument is that, Mr. Spin-a-rama? What….one spoiled fish constitutes environmental waste? Listen brad, how about you come with me and take a drink straight from the Grand River. Given its current despoliation at the hands of Cauco-Canadians through the years (farmers, chemical companies etc), I’d think you’d enjoy it’s thick, rich consistency, and its lovely aroma. Well, one Cauco-canadian’s “special privileges” is another Native Canadian’s constitutionally-recognized treaty rights. However, please realize that I, for one, would gladly trade back any treaty rights and benefits in exchange for the land originally agreed upon. You can take all the infrastructure, rip up the roadways, take the houses and anything else you deem “yours” as well. However, don’t come crawling back to me looking for a contract to rebuild anything. I’ll find other investors….like China! Funny…there are Native-owned businesses in downtown Toronto who are operating in a fair environment, or do you to just prefer to ignore them…or better yet, you had no idea these businesses even existed? I’ve seen these businesses in every major city in Canada, and they do quite fine. All you are concerned about is Canada taking away any treaty rights without giving the land back that those rights were traded for. I know that this “something for nothing” principle has long been a facet of your people, but I’m sorry, that is not how reality works. At least find comfort in the fact that neither of us are satisfied by the current arrangement. Environmentally irresponsible (that’s the proper way to spell it in your language, btw) practices?...buddy, you are setting yourself up if you want to get into that argument. If I just started on recent oil spills in Cauco-Canadian owned businesses in Alberta alone, I’d have so many fine examples that we’d have to start a separate thread. For some reason, equating one spoiled fish and neglectfully allowing for 1200 gallons of industrial waste to overflow a coffer and get into the Great Slave river just isn’t comparable. That would be akin to your earlier demand that we should thank you for raping us at residential school. You live in B.C? Well, you should know better than questioning an Ontarian like myself. You know damn well that you can’t even fart without an OK from head office in Toronto. In fact, you should be thanking me for all the Ontarians that we send out there to run your government for you. I disagree. Most complaints come from Cauco-Canadians who don’t like the fact that they don’t get their own way anymore, and that they have to put up with a Native fishing industry that was never previously allowed. One of your Chiefs put it to me this way: The white folk don’t have a problem with Natives in the fishing industry as long as the Natives are crewmen…but when the Natives start captaining boats, then the whites feel that that is just not natural. Having been on the East coast and having seen the same thing there, I’m inclined to agree with him.

Brad (1): Lad,I do know how how China deals with dissenters, and from what you visualize, you aren’t too far off in your views. Besides, creating policies that allowed for Native children to be raped for decades at residential schools, and then purposefully taking them away and scattering them across north America in adoptive homes doesn’t give me the impression that Canada is nicer. It's nice from your perspective because you nor your ancestors didn’t have to live through that era. You misinterpret my ideals purposely. I argue that the government of Canada ought to negotiate because it is right but the instant the native demands become extravigant, along with their refusal to thank or even admit the extra benefits they receive then its over. Negotiation is a two way street whereas you want it to be a buffet for the natives to take as they please. Negotiations is a nice sentiment,which is exactly what was supposed to be occurring over the DCE property before it was unilaterally sold by the government for development. I'd say the Crown certainly didn't hold up it's end now, did they. On the other hand, who am I to thank for all my family members raped by priests and reverends at residential school? You, or the government' I mean, you elect the government, don't you? Does that not make you partially responsible for enabling child sexual abuse to occur? No, you only imply it. Give me a break. Why don't you speak of Native successes? Where are those posts Mr. "Oh-I-care-about-Natives-my-heart-bleeds-for-them." Besides, I clearly explained that your country has not lived up to its treaty obligations, and the policies and laws they set (without Native input, btw) have put my people in a hole that yours never had to deal with. Can I pass you clearer rose-coloured glasses? Oh, I see. I disagree with you, ergo, I'm ridiculous. Good argument. Obviously well-thought out and based on a depth of knowledge and experience. I’m sure Canada is proud of your thought process. Have another beer.

I was looking into the GRE (Grand River Enterprises) company and found this:http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/49666.pdf Looks like SN is more than willing to acknowledge Canadian sovereignty over their lands when it suits them... River: No it doesn’t. We are left with no choice. It doesn’t mean we aren’t trying to assert our sovereignty. The main problem is that that idea seems to annoy you.

Chuck: Simply put, the government does not want us to be sovereign. That’s why there is a constant struggle. GRE, like other Canadian businesses, has to incorporate under Canada’s laws to conduct business, otherwise, the Authorities would be in there with guns drawn. As for being pushovers, we don’t have much choice with guns pointed at us, but at least we aren’t pointing guns back, we’re trying to work through the system (which presents its own set of obstacles.) Why do you always want us to fight?

Jerry: It's Grand River Enterprises. There is a recent Macleans article on them too.

White men's jobs: It's no joke. you clearly said that my relations were doing "white men's jobs", which tells anyone with half a brain that professorships, mechanics, pilots or any other work belong's to "white men'. Hence, you are a vile, pathetic, disgusting racist. That ain't no joke, bro. I'm not laughing you freak of nature. I can't...because all those jobs are reserved for white men, as per your desire. Hey...the natives weren't the one's who brought the Race holy War crowd to their protest in caledonia. That was the "Canadian" contingent. However, I can't help it if hundreds of people scream about being oppressed by 15 or so people living in a muddy field. I call it overreaction, but that's the kind of thing you get when you aren't eligible for "white men's jobs". Ok...How about the $140 million GRE pays to the Feds as being too much. Plus, if the government did bother to sell land that had an active land claim on it for the past 30 years, then they wouldn't of had to pay so much. Had the Crown bothered to sit down and actually solve the issues involving the Haldimand tract, then this would not have hapened in the first place, you disgusting racist trash. Go ahead...they already hand out over $140 million to the Crown each year. In return, why aren't some of the drunken Cauco-canadians charged for coming onto the property and harrassing the protestors. That happens every other night now that it's colder (Apparently, the Cauco-canadians prefer drinking nightly during the warm months), you disgusting in-breed. Whatever land hasn't been surrendered and purchased properly, which affects a considerable area within the Haldimand tract. But I'm sure it will be phased over time. It's only when someone tries to build or alter land that is under claim do the warnings start, you retarded racist meat puppet. Funny, you appear to suck from the same teats. I guess the only difference is that it takes Natives decades before anything is done, but the Cauco-Canadians in Caledonia only needed to whine a hundred days before the province showered them with money. Oh yeah...I found out from some Caledonians that the free money even went out to people who aren't even close to DCE, and that people next to DCE didn't get a dime, while the neighbours across town took the Crown's cash. Even that the Crown couldn't get right...and you are trying to tell me that the "white mans' system" is superior, you filthy, mentally-challenged bigot. No...I take pleasure pissing off vile racist scum like you. If anyone else gets pissed, then that's because of their own hang-ups, you perverse ethnocentrist. I think the name "white men's jobs" defines you quite wonderfully. Additionally, I also remember the Cauco-Canadians calling me a "wagon-burner", a "timber nigger", and the usual slew of rants involving umemployment and taxes, so I know you are in good company you pathetic waste of skin. " Can you prove to me that any of these things were created by white men? Jamaicans built my house...in fact, all the houses in the subdivision. Does that mean they aren't as good as a "white man's house". Besides, the bottom line is that all our homes are built on land the Natives exchanged for treaty rights and benefits, so I'd say things are square, you vomitous, racist slug. Including rape, serial killing and mass murder. No...you can have those things. I'll keep the computer, you disgusting racist vermin. Gladly, as long as you keep paying your rent for Canada you wretched, decrepit racist moron.

So why did GRE agree to give the feds their cut? Mostly likely it was because the feds had the power to shut GRE down if GRE did not agree to pay the taxes owed. The GRE could have agreed to follow the rules like everyone else and charge customers directly. However, GRE decided they wanted to pretend that SN was a tax free zone so they held out for a different deal. The feds agreed because it was easier than navigating the legal swamp surrounding First Nations tax status.Bottom line: the structure of the deal between GRE and the feds does not change the fact that those monies are excise taxes collected from customers and they cannot be considered profits for the enterprise. Sweet jumping Jesus, River... did you not read this post of mine from yesterday:

Third Immigrant: Wow...I certainly upset you! Golly...what you must think of me! Then why aren't you laughing? You appear to be insanely upset with what I say. Why not have a beer, or ten. Certainly, if you insist. Ironically, I've been hearing that alot lately on this thread, but I'm game. Yes, from the First Nation that controls that particular resource. funny you should mention that. Do you know that one company on Six Nations pays the Feds over $140 million in taxes while the Feds transfer just under forty million to the entire reserve! Man...that should keep you swimming in welfare, eh Third Immigrant? To add to that point, you should have see all the Cauco-Canadians in Caledonia tripping over themselves to grab taxpayer's money after telling the Province that the 15 or so "native Terrorists" on Douglas Creek are "oppressing" them. My God....it looked like starving Ethiopians in the food line! I couldn't believe the shamelessness of it all. you should really talk to them and ask them to stop embarrassing you. Well, since we greeted your ancestors here, i'd have to say that we owned everything, and traded it for a reasonable price. Of course, in your desire to get something for nothing, you want to abrogate our deal...but then again, your people have been looking for the cheap and easy way as a matter of principle. Look at Walkerton...your people died because of the patronage rampant in that municipality...so as a result, undertrained people lied about the e.Coli counts. My advice to you is that it doesn't pay to cut corners. Do the job right the first time. Yes it probably is, but deserving something for being here since time immemorial isn't....and that would be true if our skin was purple. So is your battle for land long lost through trade and sale. Apparently not in Caledonia. jeepers...apparently not in a bunch of places. Third Immigrant...guess what...you are a filthy racist! I knew it! "White men's jobs, eh? So what about other people of colour in this country? Are they "honourary" whites for doing "White men's jobs? What about women? Do you get upset with them doing "White Men's jobs"? Heck...I'll make that your Indian name: White men's jobs Oh...this is too sweet. I really, really get under your disgusting, vile, decrepit, in-bred racist skin don't I? Look...I won't comment on your mom and your uncle -oops, let's call him Dad- but please tell me how these job's are the sole property of white people, please? Would you include child-rape, serial killing and mass murder as white men's jobs too, seeing as how white folk seem to be pre-eminent in those acts according to profilers? Come on....if you want to take credit for everything, then take credit for everything you vile, racist scum. hunh? Doctors are doin that now? Why can't they do both? Are whites just naturally better than us non-whites? Considering that one company on the reserve gives the Feds three times as much money, i'd say so. Bless you. Yes, but we are talking about Canada, not Romanian or Rwanda. Yes...must be a nice dream, but too bad it doesn't match reality. If your so gung-ho, then demand that the army attack the Indians. Of course, I'm sure you'll hide, but is that really surprising. Just don't touch your sister. Yes...at Caledonia three weekends ago, the Natives stood their ground and offered food and drink to everyone celebrating our potluck. The terrorists marched less than a kilometre before melting away. Well...i'll try to settle your people down, but it's darn hard to reason with drunken in-breds....your boyfriend should know that just from being with you, you filthy, disgusting racist swine. have a nice day.

River: No I'm not. I completely understand what your saying, and I'm not disagreeing with the application of excise taxes in the mainstream....but the situation I'm referring to is not in the mainstream. The Feds went nuts not collecting anything from GRE, so they created a construct that does not apply to mainstream in order to get their cut. I'll repeat it again, GRE gives to the Feds three times what the Feds give to the entire reserve in transfer payments. However, on Canadian brand cigarettes, excise rules do apply on reserve, and the cartons must be counted and tracked...however, they are a tougher sell because they are twice the price of Sago's and Putters, so everyone buys the Native brands. Hence, you are correct referring to Players, Rothmans and Export A, but wrong about Sagos, Putters and DK's. Sorry.

River: Exactly...and their using their own profits to accomplish this. OK. Again, the bottom line is that one company on Six Nations pays the Feds three times more than the entire reserve sees coming back from the Feds. ..and I do think that people will believe me and wonder if your train of thought left you standing on the platform.

River...that is my point. Six Nations not charging tax is part and parcel of the sovreignty issue, which is why taxes are not collected on their product. On occasion, the RCMP will stop large vehicles leaving the reserve in an attempt to determine the purchaser, but all anyone says are that these large shipments are destined for sale on another First Nation. That is why the government guesstimates their cut based on GRE's annual earnings...because they have no precise way of determining how much tax or excises they are missing out on. I'm sorry that you feel so badly about Native sovreignty, but the money comes from GRE's earnings. Again, the bottom line is that one company on six Nations pays the Feds three times more than the entire reserve sees coming back from the Feds. You can call the police if you want, but they already know what is occuring....remember, they have a Mountie permanently stationed at the plant. I should think that you should be grateful to six Nations for giving so much money to the Feds and receiving so little in return. Is that not what you've long advocated for?

Yes I do. Both the Hamilton Spectator and the Turtle Island News stated that GRE pays over $140 million to the Federal government. I already told you that Six Nations does not charge tax on cigarettes (hence the constant flow of non-natives to the reserve to buy smokes) so the entire amount comes from GRE's earnings. Six Nations also gets just under $40 million per annum in transfer payments from the Feds (which can be seen in the Spec, the Turtle Island News and on INAC's website). Regardless of how you want to spin it, one company gives the Federal government $140 million plus every year in taxes, and the community as a whole receives less than a third of that amount back. The point is you are flogging a dead horse. I know you know about excise taxes and how they work in mainstream, but you are talking about a different animal here that has become quite apparent that you know nothing about. I'm sorry for spoiling your argument, but Six Nations is suffering a fiscal gap, and yet you have some Cauco-Canadians saying they are government freeloaders. The bottom line is that they pay their own share, and then some more to look after Canada, but receive no credit for it because people like you refuse to believe that Natives contribute to this country. I understand your dilemma, and I hope I'm educating you on this issue. I told you, Six Nations does not collect tax on their cigarettes, so the money comes directly from GRE annual earnings. I'm sorry this hurts, but it is the truth. How can one collect an excise on an untaxed product? What's next, are you going to argue the earth is flat judging from where you stand?

River: Nope. I only know about the money GRE gives to the Feds, and the money the Feds transfers to Six Nations...regardless, whatever the amount is, it will only increase the $140 million GRE gives to the Government of Canada....which will still work out to three times more than what the rez receives from Federal transfer payments. The bottom line is that Six Nations is putting at least three times more money into the Federal government's general ledger than what they get back from the same account. In simple terms, Six Nations is suffering from a fiscal gap...just like Ontario. Terrible, really. That certainly knocks the props from under the argument that Natives are government freeloaders, when clearly all of Canada enjoys the contributions Six Nation's makes....