betsy

Please keep in mind that suspicion and doubts are the reasons why there is so much resistance and accusations being hurled at gays in general. Yes, in general. Because groups like EGALE is purporting to represent and speak for all gays. Just for the sake of comparison and argument, I have to re-post these on this topic. ILGA's current positions on man/boy love and pedophilia are explicit: -- In 1985, ILGA adopted a position on "Age of Consent/Paedophilia/ Children's Rights" that urged member organizations to "lobby their governments to abolish the age of consent law" so long as there is "adequate protection for youth from being sexually abused without the age of consent law." -- In 1986, ILGA adopted a position that says the group "supports the right of young people to sexual and social self-determination." -- In 1988, ILGA declared "this conference recognizes that existing same-sex age-of-consent laws often operate to oppress and not to protect; that in many countries, existing laws on sexual coercion and rules of evidence also often operate to oppress and not to protect; that therefore member organizations are urged to consider how best children, adolescents, and people of all ages can be empowered and supported against both sexual coercion and sexual oppression and to work towards that end." -- In 1990, ILGA "calls on all members to treat all sexual minorities with respect and to engage in constructive dialogue with them. In another position adopted that year, ILGA declared that it "supports the right of every individual, regardless of age, to explore and develop her or his sexuality." ILGA has also taken strong stands against sexual coercion. NAMBLA helped write these positions, and our delegates supported them in the General ----------------------- Pederasty and Homosexuality by David Thorstad Speech to the Semana Cultural Lesbica-Gay, Mexico City, June 26, 1998. More than 600 people showed up for the talk: standing room only, and many had to be turned away. [This is an English translation of the speech, which was given in Spanish] "Our movement today stresses the liberation and empowerment of young people. Instead of pedagogy, democracy. Rather than a Greek love mentor-relationship, the companionship of independent and autonomous individuals. In place of male supremacy, a vision of sexual, economic, and political liberation for all. Freedom is indivisible. The liberation of children, women, boy-lovers, and homosexuals in general, can occur only as complementary facets of the same dream." http://www.attrition.org/mirror/attrition/...1/pederasty.htm -------------------------------- That introductory line of EGALE somehow echoes the policies of the ILGA and NAMBLA. The words had been re-hashed...the agenda seems to have been "re-packaged".

The Homosexual Community must wake up. I firmly believe that most gays are decent and do not even know what's afoot here. They are collectively getting tarnished by a group that is supposedly speaking for them.

I have read EGALE’s submission on Age of Consent to the Department of Justice Canada dated March 30, 2000. However, just reading its introductions, I came across some statements that were rather unsettling. "While EGALE supports the goal of protecting vulnerable persons from sexual abuse, we are concerned about the efficacy of raising the age of consent. In addition, EGALE has serious concerns about adverse impacts, including the impact on the goals of fostering autonomy, empowering youth and providing them with the tools to make informed decisions. The setting of an absolute age of consent is an inevitably imperfect line drawing exercise. No matter where the line is drawn, some otherwise healthy sexual activity will be criminalized and some harmful activity will be permitted. Both effects are of concern, and both should be considered." http://www.egale.ca/index.asp?lang=E&menu=37&item=348 "The setting of an absolute age of consent is an inevitably imperfect line drawing exercise. No matter where the line is drawn, some otherwise healthy sexual activity will be criminalized and some harmful activity will be permitted. Both effects are of concern, and both should be considered." Does this paragraph suggests that there should be no absolute age of consent? That this is a subtle way of saying let's abolish the age of consent law? Does "autonomy" means sexual and social self-determination?

For those who are curious about ILGA's positions. Positions that NAMBLA claimed to have helped in writing. ILGA's current positions on man/boy love and pedophilia are explicit: -- In 1985, ILGA adopted a position on "Age of Consent/Paedophilia/ Children's Rights" that urged member organizations to "lobby their governments to abolish the age of consent law" so long as there is "adequate protection for youth from being sexually abused without the age of consent law." -- In 1986, ILGA adopted a position that says the group "supports the right of young people to sexual and social self-determination." -- In 1988, ILGA declared "this conference recognizes that existing same-sex age-of-consent laws often operate to oppress and not to protect; that in many countries, existing laws on sexual coercion and rules of evidence also often operate to oppress and not to protect; that therefore member organizations are urged to consider how best children, adolescents, and people of all ages can be empowered and supported against both sexual coercion and sexual oppression and to work towards that end." -- In 1990, ILGA "calls on all members to treat all sexual minorities with respect and to engage in constructive dialogue with them. In another position adopted that year, ILGA declared that it "supports the right of every individual, regardless of age, to explore and develop her or his sexuality." ILGA has also taken strong stands against sexual coercion. NAMBLA helped write these positions, and our delegates supported them in the General Assembly, contrary to what the ILGA secretariats imply. http://www.qrd.org/qrd/orgs/NAMBLA/nambla....lga.secretariat

I wonder what the waiting list is like for that. Imagine, when time is really crucial to fight it. Just the mental torture of waiting....and the stress for the whole family. This is one of those reasons why I agree with Harper's healthcare plan. Today, they were talking about average 1 month waiting period in some provinces (but I think it was not specifically about cancer).

EGALE's position: To be fair with EGALE, let me take a look, then I'll get back to you on this. If I do have any important questions regarding EGALE, I'll post it as a separate topic. This topic is getting too long and convoluted. I need some time on this.

Consent my foot! When you're talking about pubescent or young teens....it wouldn't take much seduction to convince those raging hormones and natural curiousity for sensuality to make consent very possible! And coercion is highly likely! Predators go where they have easy access to prey. Usually, authority comes with their position....

If you really think so then why do you single out the homosexual community (whatever that is)? If They're no more responsible than the rest of us why focus on gays? Why reinforce the false association? A Hermit, you're giving me a head-ache. Kindly scroll back and re-read.

You're right! Not too many people knew about NAMBLA. I accidentally found out about it when it was referred to casually in an article at the height of the priest scandal. I looked it up online...and the whole thing just floored me! Then I accidentally discovered something when I started going into forums. Never mention the word "NAMBLA." Uttering that word will bring down the wrath, big-time. I got into vicious debates in US forums...and funny thing, there seems to be a "uniform-style" of the way gays and supporters of the movement handle the NAMBLA incident. Furious sweeping denial! But you see...there's a character flaw in me. I'm tenacious and stubborn...when I know I'm onto something right. I agree with you that a lot of people do not even know such a thing as NAMBLA exists. Well, that's something we ought to rectify.

But I don't care if NAMBLA has only one member. No matter the size of this organization, the fact remains that it managed to get Clinton to take notice and issue a threat towards ILGA to get booted out of the UN. Now why would this sazzy Democrat Prez be driven to that point, I wonder? Why would he even bother to waste a moment to demand that ILGA drop NAMBLA? Do presidential adminstrations normally waste their time doing that kind of thing? Black Dog, you're having a hard time arguing on this one simply because what I say is simple fact.

Which article. The one on National Post? It's not the same one that Black Dog's talking about. There were no cops involved about this one that I'm talking about. It was just a descriptive essay/article that talked about this new gay bar with the "slurp" rails or holes. But it was sexually explicit...and was on the front page, alongside the headlines. No, that one had nothing to do with pedophilia. We just got side-tracked on that one because we talked about the media' bias and its role in pushing for the acceptance of gay culture.

Hmmm. No context, no reference to any actual incidences where gay groups have lobbied for the AoC to be lowered for all type sof sexual activity... yup...more b.s. Ummm....where's the substantiation that this is all b.s?

Woooo....we're getting into the great conspiracy theory here eh? So who's in on this conspiracy to tarnish ILGA. Definitely NAMBLA is in on it! Of course, the UN too....they gotta be in on it! Those bastards! And that Clinton! I just knew it! You could never trust that blasted guy! Who would've thought that he'd be a right-winger in the closet?

They say "14" is the magic number. 13 is a bonus! Is that why there's a resistance from EGALE to raise the age of consent to 16?

I think that pretty much sums up where you're coming from betsy. So I dug up on Philip Jenkins. Here's what I found. "In the mid 1990s, the Archdiocese of Chicago opened records to Jenkins on all 2,252 priests who had served Chicago in the past 40 years. Less than 2 percent of all priests who served in that time frame had been accused of sexual misconduct of any kind, and only one case involved pre-pubescent victims. With additional research, Jenkins concluded that pedophilia is no higher among Catholic priests than it is among members of any other profession. What is slightly more prevalent among priests, however, is the propensity for relationships involving post-pubescent boys. One term some psychologists use for adults who seek sex with young people ages 14-18-legal in many cases-is ephebophilia. "In most societies, this is a normal age for marriage, so why can we call it a psychiatric disturbance?" asks Jenkins. "The proper word for a man who has sex with a boy of 16 or 17 is homosexuality." So with the exception of an infinitesimal number of cases-no greater statistically than one would find among other religious clergy or among doctors or lawyers-priests are not pedophiles. In only slightly higher percentages, they are homosexuals who choose teen-age partners. This fact annoys some secular critics of the church, because by their own ideology it exonerates the handful of offending priests. A growing progressive movement, in fact, has worked hard for a decade toward mainstream acceptance of homosexual men who choose teen partners. " http://www.boulderweekly.com/archive/042502/waynesword.html

Thanks for reminding me, Black Dog. I meant to ask questions about this a while back. Going back to NAMBLA....as I understand, only their website exists...and members are nowhere to be found. Where are they now? Did they slink into sewers? Under rocks? ....or crawled back right under the protective skirts of some gay groups we know?

Here is another evidence that I just stumbled upon! A letter by NAMBLA to ILGA Secretariat. "Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 21:02:41 -0500 From: Roy Radow <[email protected]> Subject: NAMBLA Replies to ILGA Secretariat (Revised) Dear Tommy-tom, Please replace the NAMBLA-ILGA statement which currently appears in the QRD with this revised statement. Thanks. NAMBLA has been a member of the International Lesbian and Gay Association for 10 years. We've been continuously active in ILGA longer than any other US organization. NAMBLA delegates to ILGA helped write ILGA's constitution, its official positions on the sexual rights of youth, and its stands against sexual coercion and corporal punishment. We are proud of our contributions in making ILGA a stronger voice for the international gay and lesbian movement and for sexual justice. " http://www.qrd.org/qrd/orgs/NAMBLA/nambla....lga.secretariat Not only was NAMBLA a member of ILGA for 10 years. NAMBLA also helped write ILGA's constitution! ILGA's OFFICIAL positions on the sexual rights of youth! Hmmmm....

I do believe that a lot of silent majority are intimidated...or had given up on speaking out on the issue (not because of finally accepting what the Liberals are ramming down our throats), but more so out of reluctant resignation and hand-throwing up in the air "what's the point of reasoning with Liberals who have logic all tupsy-turvy!" Just read at the ru-butts and the line of reasoning here...and you get the message! All they could do to re-butt is shout BIGOTRY! Well, they can call me a bigot til they're blue in the faces. I know I'm not. And I definitely know why they're resorting to that labelling. It's the oldest trick in book for these people when they're stumped for sensible rebuttals.

You hit that one about the media right on the head! About a couple of years back, I read on the front page of National Post, an article by Christy Blatchford describing a new fancy gay bar in Toronto. So gay bar you say, big deal. But she's graphically describing what she called "SLURP RAILS or holes", where penis were poked through holes, inviting for anyone to do as you please...I guess I don't need to spell it out! The owner of the penis is unseen. It is bad enough to read such garbage on the front page of a national paper....but it was the tone and message of her report! She was gushing like this was something to be awed and applauded! She was marvelling at how creative the gays are for such fun times! Society had been systematically disensitized and manipulated by the media to accept this without any question. The gag law was the nice touch to prevent any attempts at any question! But of course, the media. Why do you think they're so busy and aggressive promoting this acceptance? Is it required for you to put your penis in the hole? Are you required to go t this bar? Were you required to read the article? Whats the problem? Who would have thought that what I was reading on the front page of what was parading to be a national paper, was nothing more than an endorsement of indecently x-rated, if not downright deviant acts? It does not belong on the front page, sir! It belonged in the likes of Hustler, and whatever Gay magazines there are. Or at best, somewhere on the nth page...with a warning of graphical sexual contents and that some of the contents may be offensive to others. It shows where the media is mis-leading society!

You hit that one about the media right on the head! About a couple of years back, I read on the front page of National Post, an article by Christy Blatchford describing a new fancy gay bar in Toronto. So gay bar you say, big deal. But she's graphically describing what she called "SLURP RAILS or holes", where penis were poked through holes, inviting for anyone to do as you please...I guess I don't need to spell it out! The owner of the penis is unseen. It is bad enough to read such garbage on the front page of a national paper....but it was the tone and message of her report! She was gushing like this was something to be awed and applauded! She was marvelling at how creative the gays are for such fun times! Society had been systematically disensitized and manipulated by the media to accept this without any question. The gag law was the nice touch to prevent any attempts at any question! But of course, the media. Why do you think they're so busy and aggressive promoting this acceptance?

Given your glaring ignorance of gay groups and the gay community, I don't think you're in a position to tell them what to do. Maybe I'm not in any position to tell them what to do. But I don't want my children or anyone else's at any age...to be sodomized or otherwise abused by some sexually obsessed perverts! That's what pedophiles are, incidentally!

You haven't offered much proof hat there's any movement afOot to lower thE age of consent. Most mainstream gay organizations' stance on the issue is that, regardless of what the age is, the AoC for "gay" sex should be the same as hetero sex (SOMETHING YOU'VE FAILED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THROUGHOUT THIS THREAD). Obviously you have not read this. Here! "Even "pro-gay" feminists have called on gay groups to distance themselves from efforts to lower the age of consent. Writing in the UK Guardian newspaper in 2001, Julie Blindel points out, "If gay men are going to, on the one hand, campaign for sexual access to younger and younger boys, but bleat about public perceptions of them as a league of child abusers, is it any wonder that the whole thing is such a mess?" Blindel concludes, "If gay men are serious about distancing themselves from child sexual abuse, then it's up to them to make some real efforts to join forces against this gross violation." (see Blindel's piece here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/...3,4145251,00.... ) The IATC's Carlin concurs, "If gays are going to campaign (by way of zero change), for sexual access to young boys, they may lose the right in the eyes of many people to complain about the perceptions associated with their choice". I thought you were just kidding. But it seems that you're not well-informed for there are ample evidence about this!

Reminds of the Anti-semite who protests that "some of my best friends are Jewish" Look, there is no more reason for you to go prattling on about NAMBLA then there is for me to point out the Ku Klux Klan considers itself a Christian organization and demand that the local Mennonite church do more to disassociate themselves from the Klan. It's simply ludicrous to associate those two groups, but that's exactly what you are doing here. The problem with discussions like this is the not so subtle implication that gays are somehow more responsible for dealing with the problem than the rest of us. Why should that be? Why should EGALE be amy more responsible for deouncing NAMBLA than the Catholic Church is? I call it like I see it betsy, and this kind of false association is the product of bigotry, plain and simple. Get the beam out of your eye and take a good long look in the mirror. Yes you're right. The concern should be no more with the gay community than with the community in general. In fact your being gay is irrelevant to me and to most of society. The point is your sub-culture is associated, whether you like it or not, with NAMBLA. The homosexual community is part of the problem - it's the entire society's problem...and it's the entire society's responsibility to solve it...with or without the support of the homosexual community.

Reminds of the Anti-semite who protests that "some of my best friends are Jewish" I don't know what you're on about. In fact, none of my best friends are homosexuals. The fact remains that NOT ALL GAYS are pedophiles...and it has nothing to do with my friendship.

Are you serious? Transgender surgeries are covered yet many cancer treatments are not? How ridiculous. It shows when a minority gets such status that nothing can oppose anything they do (or fear being labelled a bigot), how damaging it can be to our country. Transgender surgery is completely cosemetic, no one could actually make any argument to me that shows its medically neccessary. However, also remember that Quebec teenager that got breast implants paid for by the government because she didn't feel like her breasts her big enough. I really hope we get some leaders with a backbone across the board in this country soon. We are selling ourselves to little special interests left right and centre. Oh yes, about cancer...I forgot all about that!