betsy

FACT: ARCHEOLOGY DISCOVERED SODOM AND GOMORRAH http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/05/Sodom-and-Gomorrah-Is-There-Evidence-for-Their-Destruction.aspx

That question doesn't apply unless Native people want to be treated like toddlers and babysat all throughout their lives...which is actually quite demeaning and un-dignified. As far as I know we are already doing something about it! Let's not get into the details of finances and all the tax breaks and aids, not to mention the effort to install and keep the identity of the Native Indian people, and the apology that was given at last! My question is: what are you (the native Indian people) doing about helping yourselves? Whining about the residential school atrocity does not deliver that kind of emotional impact anymore simply because everyone knows something was and is still being done to make up for that atrocity....and that atrocity pales when it's compared to the level of atrocities that the Jewish people have endured 60-70 years ago. Speaking of the Jewish people, I think the native Indians should get inspiration from them. The Jews experienced getting rounded up - not to be forcefully assimilated into society - but to get, annihilated! As far as I know, I don't hear about Jews going on pointing accusing fingers at Germany (and all the other countries that capitulated and collaborated with Hitler) every opportunity they have, whining on about how they got abused, tortured and brought to near-extinction! They don't demand for help or support, and they don't keep blaming the guilty parties at every turn! Instead, after only 60 - 70 years.....look at the Jews now! Do they still live in ghettos? They managed to get right back on track and become successful. Do you hear of their youth committing suicides? Why are Native youths committing suicides at a large percentage??? You think piling on these incessant lamentations and hard-done-by and always-a-victim "philosophy" doesn't do any damage psychologically? I feel sorry that you had to go through that atrocity 50 years ago. But right now, I feel so sorry for the Native youth who are "forced" to look up to their "oppressors" for optimism and support....because there seems to be nothing positive coming from their own people! If the Jews, as a people, managed to get where they are now after facing that horrible atrocity 60 years ago.....the native Indians should be asked this question: What about you? Stop digging up bones of despair. You only depress your own people. Most of the problems you face now are also being faced by most regular folks, regardless of color or religion! You got an advantage though.....you don't get taxed to death! I say....quit whining, more positive action. Inspire your children. EDUCATION....not depression. Take advantage of what's given to you and turn yourselves around! Ask the Jews!

40-50 years ago in Canada. Exactly! All that angst....all that heavy weight still being lugged around on weary shoulders - worse, being shifted on to yet younger shoulders like a relay torch. What a burden to pass on to the younger generations. It only generates more resentment, more anger, more angst.....that only weakens instead of uplift. For some of us...it's like watching replays of the same movie, or listening to the same oldie several times. It's lost its relevance....one gets tired of it.....so its full meaning and significance - what we should avoid from happening again - start sounding like the same tired dialogue from a cheesy soap, the drama is diluted and gets replaced with eye-rolling! And for what??? Something that happened 40 to 50 years ago. So people and society 40-50 years go messed up big time. I'm not denying that a grievous atrocity was done to the native Indians. It was an atrocity. A black mark on our history. One that shouldn't ever happen again! But it's all history now. Don't you think it's about time to bury that hatchet? No offense intended. Start looking towards the future with optimism - for the sake of the younger generation. If we're going to try and help your youth....you and I got to do it together!

Never mind your so-called fact. And your incessant whining. The last time I looked, apology to First Nations was finally given, and attempts at rectifying mistakes are being undertaken. You may not not be satisfied at what's being done for you now....but that's another story. Your grievances for the First Nations now - today - somewhat pales when compared to what's happening in other parts of the world. You're only trivializing horrific realities when you bring up past atrocities done to First Nations. Current persecutions and injustices are still happening as we speak - killings of Christians in numerous parts of the world, human trafficking/slavery in parts of Africa, genocides and ethnic cleansings, etc.., That so-called rational reasoning that you invoke has been used a hundred times in this forum: Blame God for the sins of mere humans. Use sinning mortals as an excuse to forsake God! Same old-same old. No one is personally responsible anymore! It's always somebody else's fault! Quite convenient to deflect! Barking at the wrong tree....what else is new? If you want to pursue your premise about First Nations, create your own topic! Now, back to my own premise. So, you want to discredit the Bible, that much is obvious. Stop waltzing around the issue. Be relevant and give a contradiction or refute the posted facts in this topic! Go for the bulls-eye!

I don't know what your point is with this response. Anyway, here's the complete post that you've quoted above: As I stated (which you probably overlooked in your huffing haste to respond), let me repeat.... I am not mocking stated beliefs. So bringing up Islamic belief into this is irrelevant. They are open about their faith! We're talking about the New Atheists. Their belief. Which they try to deny (out of hypocrisy and of course, ignorance). Their unshakeable faith in their doctrine and belief of non-god. They're as fundamentalist as any other religious group! At least the sect Pastafaria came out lately. Complete with the religious pasta-drainer cap! Speaking of which, does it comes in different colors?

FACT: Archeological finding at TAHPANHES in-line with Biblical narrative of Jeremiah Tahpanhes (also transliterated Tahapanes or Tehaphnehes; known by the Ancient Greeks as Daphnae, now Tell Defenneh) was a city in Ancient Egypt. It was located on Lake Manzala on the Tanitic branch of the Nile, about 16 miles from Pelusium. The site is now situated on the Suez Canal. According to the Hebrew Bible, the Jews from Jerusalem fled to this place after the death of Gedaliah and settled there for a time (Jeremiah 2:16; 43:7,8,9; 44:1; 46:14; Ezekiel 30:18). A platform of brick-work, which there is every reason to believe was the pavement at the entry of Pharaoh's palace, has been discovered at this place. "Here," says the discoverer, William Flinders Petrie, "the ceremony described by Jeremiah 43:8-10; "brick-kiln", i.e., pavement of brick] took place before the chiefs of the fugitives assembled on the platform, and here Nebuchadnezzar II spread his royal pavilion". The site was discovered by Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie in 1886; it was then known by natives as the "Castle of the Jew's Daughter".[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tahpanhes Jeremiah 43: 8-10 8 In Tahpanhes the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: 9 While the Jews are watching, take some large stones with you and bury them in clay in the brick pavement at the entrance to Pharaohs palace in Tahpanhes. 10 Then say to them, This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: I will send for my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and I will set his throne over these stones I have buried here; he will spread his royal canopy above them.

FACT: Archeological findings in TELL EN-NASBEH in-line with the Biblical narratives. (adapted and expanded from "Nasbeh, Tell en-." In The New Encyclopedia of Archaeological Excavations in the Holy Land, edited by E. Stern, vol. 3, 1098-1102. Jerusalem: Carta, 1993.) http://www.arts.cornell.edu/jrz3/frames2.htm

Take a number and get in line. Not to be insensitive....but what is new in history? The Jews and Cambodians had a horrific hellish time too. By non-Christian monsters! Not only were they enslaved, forced into labour and concentration camps....they were getting systematically annihilated to boot. Do you have anything relevant to say....like a contradiction to the Bible facts posted in this topic?

Given your explanation about the faeries....No, I'm not mis-understanding your thrust. Your reasoning is the same as MDancer's. Let me ask you these. I expect you to answer each question honestly. Do you argue strongly with those who believe in faeries? Do you debate strongly that there are no faeries, and that they're just a figment of a fertile imagination? Do you go openly calling those people who believe in faeries stupid, or ignorant etc..? Do you go to the extent of writing books that mock and ridicule those people who believe in faeries? Do you go about reading those books that mock and ridicule those people who believe in faeries? Do you go about supporting the views of the authors of the books that ridicule and mock those who believe in faeries? Is there a movement for those who don't believe in faeries? Whose purpose is to counteract those who believes in faeries? Just like the New Atheists counteracting the Faith Believers? Do you await the scientific evidence that will irrefutably prove that there are no faeries? Does science even try to find such evidence about faeries? Never mind the science community splitting hairs about it among themselves, with some strongly suggesting that they do exist! Do you correct your children at every turn - everytime they talk about faeries - correcting them and explaining that there are no such things? Have you played the role of the tooth fairy to your children? Have you dressed your children in fairy costumes? Have you posted anything in any forums that argumentatively or vehemently support your views about faeries? Have you stopped your school from reading fairy tales, or showing any movies or media that depict faeries? Have you even made any attempt at all - no matter how feeble it is - to stop the school from doing so?

I didn't get the chance to follow your conversation with Oleg, but this boldened statement got my attention. What do you mean you accept creation?

Yet you waste your time mocking faith. You say you have no reason.....well, faith does not need any reason! At least, be honest to yourself. Independent my foot! Baloney! I'll show you why I say baloney.... ....right here! See that? evolution and Creator. In one statement! For atheists, it has a very significant bearing! Having all things created means atheism is busted, dead and buried! Anyway, I'm talking about Intelligent Design. Why it's a rational alternative, especially for you guys! If you read the explanation about what Intelligent Design theory is all about, you'd see that the possibility of evolution is not off the list. Of course, ID is also open to the possibility of a Creator. So why don't you address Intelligent Design? You worry too much about the possibility of a Creator....that you lose focus and reason! Nice try. But it is so quite amusing for me to see how the tables are turned. All the labels that were thrown by so-called "rational" mockers of faith towards believers are now all neatly plastered to the faces of the New Atheists. And just like the tattoo on their messiah Dawkins, the label HYPOCRITE and IGNORANT are brightly stamped on their foreheads! Oh not as much as I'm enjoying myself now....watching all the attempt at bravado yet ridiculous contortions! ENEMIES AT THE GATES! ENEMIES AT THE GATES! It's pandemonium in the kingdom of Dawkins. That's not so surprising...after all, it does say in the New Testament somewhere.... "The gates of hell cannot prevail against Me."

oh.

What's your point? Explain pls.

FACT: THE LACHISH LETTERS INLINE WITH THE BIBLICAL NARRATIVE OF THE PROPHET JEREMIAH http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lachish_letters http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/me/l/lachish_letter_ii.aspx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lachish_letters http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=34

FACT: ARCHEOLOGY FOUND LACHISH Biblical references to Lachish include Joshua 10:3, 5, 23, 31-35; Joshua 12:11; Joshua 15:39; 2 Kings 14:19; 2 Kings 18:14, 17; 2 Kings 19:8; 2 Chronicles 11:9; 2 Chronicles 25:27; 2 Chronicles 32:9; Nehemiah 11:30; Isaiah 36:2; Isaiah 37:8; Jeremiah 34:7; and Micah 1:13. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lachish

Here's something to consider: It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men, and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man - Alexander Vilenkin, co-author of The Borde-Guth-Vilenkin Theorem (quoted by William Lane Craig in his book, "On Guard" p.92)

But you believe that there is no God! You believe in neo-darwinism with not a single irrefutable evidence to support it because it counteracts the belief that there is a Creator. That is not rational. Faith is belief without proof or evidence. Faith is not based on rational thought. Do you go about arguing about the aliens? Do you go on forums debating with those who believe that aliens visited the planet and sowed the seeds of life? Arguing that they're wrong and you are right? Do you argue so strongly about these aliens that it drives you mad? Makes you lose your cool? Sputtering and spitting and stoop to calling names? Makes you stomp off in a sulk and tantrum? Do you come back to the same topic for more????

I should've quoted more than what I had....for I was basing my response along the context of what you were saying. Let me try again. You said that we don't know everything. That we could be wrong about any number of things, despite truly overwhelming evidence. That's a fact. And I agree with you there 101%! Not knowing everything and yet believing - that, is faith! Having no proof and yet believing - that, is faith! The fact that you don't know whether God exists or not, and yet an atheist believes that there is no God or gods - that, is faith! The fact that there is no clear scientific evidence for the existence of God and NON-EXISTENCE of God, and yet an atheist believes there is no God or gods - that, is faith. I am openly saying that my belief in God is based on faith. An atheist, on the other hand, denies that his belief is based on faith. Furthermore, a new atheist takes his irrational stance a step further by ridiculing those who believe in God/gods. That is the main reason why Dwakins wouldn't come out and face Craig one-on-one over his garbage book, The God Delusion. It's been pointed out to Dawkins by other critics that he is quite ignorant - not only about theism and religion(s) - about his own philosophy! Perhaps Dawkins finally got it. Dawkins now know and he now understands he can never defend his stance - that he'll undoubtedly look so foolish and face public humiliation if he ever comes face-to-face with Craig. Who's saying evolution is totally bogus? Creationists believe in evolution too....only not in the kind of evolution that neo-darwinists do. Actually, considering the latest round of articles I just gave as sources I'm no longer saying you should give equal weight to another concept - Intelligent Design to be specific. I'm saying, you should abandon the theory of evolution and replace it with the theory of ID. That is, if you want to be scientific about it, and not faith-based. Did you read that explanation from an Intelligent Designer? ID is actually up your alley. There's only one kicker..... ID is saying it will go where the evidence leads them. It's not strictly bound to common ancestry. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/11/douglas_theobald_tests_univers041021.html Neo-Darwinists got themselves in a dead-end situation, all boxed in....and yet close-mindedly refusing to shift. Science is all about empirical evidence! That's the strict rule, isn't it? Whereas ID is willing to let the evidence lead to the conclusion. In contrast neo-darwinists came up with a conclusion and are trying desperately to get the evidence to fit to their conclusion! If it talks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and floats like a duck....it must be a duck! Denying faith when it is actually faith. Claiming a "reason" is rational when in fact it is irrational. Posturing it is "science" when in fact it is no longer scientific....stunningly dishonest argument indeed! That's why I asked, are you referring to neo-darwinists?

I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just telling you what I think about you and your religion, and your Bishop Dawkins! Dawkins, being a scientist himself should know very wel that all actions have consequences. Have you heard about Cause and Effect? Well, the articles and responses you're reading from the posts here are the effects of his big mouth, via his money-making book, The God Delusion! Exactly. Just like talking to some of you here, who go on and on and on.... in circular mode.

Faith believers have been open about their belief based on faith. New Atheists - led by Dawkins - openly mocks and ridicule those who have faith, and yet obviously ignorant of the fact that they - the new atheists - are one and the same as those they mock! Dawkins try to hide behind the cloak of science - but science spits him out and expose him for the charlatan that he is! Come out of your closet! Be honest with your own selves. Have some pride - not, fried chicken!

I am not mocking stated beliefs. I am mocking the HYPOCRISY and IGNORANCE of MOCKERS of stated beliefs (faith, believers, religion) - in other words, the NEW ATHEISTS! Starting with its hypocritical, big-mouth-all-hot air yet quite cowardly leader - Dawkins! Big difference!

There is no such thing as "overwhelming" ebidence for evolution. There isn;t even one single evidence for it, never mind overwhelming. The fact that you don't have any proof whether God exists or not....and yet you believe the way you do, that is called, faith. I am openly saying that I have my faith.....but you deny yours. Furthermore, New Atheism ridicules those who do have faith....and yet don't even realize or understand the very meaning of what they're ridiculing since they don't even see that they - new atheists - based their belief on faith as well.....that's the big difference between us. Read the rsponse preceding this. Evolution is dead. Long gone. The only reason it remains is due to secularism.....and the scary thought that anything else could lead to the possibility the existence of God or a god. That's why atheists really clings to it - just like a captain stays on a sinking ship. Not so. ....If you'll open your eyes and open your mind. Are you referring to neo-darwinism?

Redundant argument requires redundant rebuttal. Circular reasoning requires a good chop. Sleepwalkers require a good jolt. Poor eyesight requires big, bold fonts.

Weheeey......It's official!!! I'd like to extend my congrats to some of our spaghetti monster-spouting community members who can finally come out of the closet...proclaim and enjoy the expression of their freedom of religion. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14135523 FAQ please: Are into high carbs? What's the significance of the holes in the colander? Do you wear pie plates too? Or Pie-In-The-Sky is another sect?

I have to admit, like me....you're a true believer of your faith. A Critique of Douglas Theobald’s “29 Evidences for Macroevolution” by Ashby Camp http://www.trueorigin.org/theobald1a.asp Camp Answers Theobald Reply to Theobald’s Response to Part 1 of Critique By Ashby L. Camp Copyright 2002 by Ashby L. Camp. All rights reserved. http://www.trueorigin.org/ca_ac_01.asp ....and this scathing rebuke from Luskin.... Douglas Theobald Tests Universal Common Ancestry by Refuting a Preposterous Null Hypothesis Casey Luskin November 29, 2010 11:00 AM http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/11/douglas_theobald_tests_univers041021.html And.....these two latest news.... Evolutionary Leftovers in DNA? Not So, Says New Study. http://www.icr.org/article/evolutionary-leftovers-dna-not-so-says/ Science Overturns Evolution's Best Argument http://www.icr.org/article/science-overturns-evolutions-best-argument/