Let's put nurses in charge of fixin' healthcare?

[err]

So there you have it folks, three of the four national political parties in Canada are committed to the principles of a single-tier, publicly funded health-care system.

Once again the Conservatives are the odd person out, and people wonder why they are sinking in the polls. I don't. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And yet, the people of Canada don't want your single tier system. The majority want to allow private medical care.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

According to Shoop, above, even the Conservative party is claiming they want a single tier health-care system... Do you know why that is.... It's not like I believe either Martin or Harper, but they know what they need to say to get elected... and do you know why that is Argus....

Because the MAJORITY OF CANADIANS WHAT PUBLIC HEALTH CARE!!!

[Argus]

Because the MAJORITY OF CANADIANS WHAT PUBLIC HEALTH CARE!!! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uhm, no. The majority want health care that works. Right now that's not public health care.

[err]

Because the MAJORITY OF CANADIANS WHAT PUBLIC HEALTH CARE!!! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uhm, no. The majority want health care that works. Right now that's not public health care.

And by your response, are you suggesting that Canadians would want a "pay for" system that will cost them more money ??? Get real...

[shoop]

And by your response, are you suggesting that Canadians would want a "pay for" system that will cost them more money ???  Get real...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let's keep the insults and putdowns off the board please.

[mirror]

Editorial: McGuinty must clarify P3 flip-flop

During the 2003 election, he denounced such private financing of public infrastructure as "an Americanization of our hospitals." He vowed to stop the practice, started by the Conservative government. Now, he has embraced the concept without explaining why he reversed his position. The issue is critical because 66 hospitals are to be built or expanded over the next five years. Up to 23 will be built under this scheme. Such plans were announced yesterday for hospitals in Mississauga and Belleville.

The McGuinty government has already allowed the first two such deals in Brampton and Ottawa, initially approved under the Tories, to proceed. They were well advanced under the previous government before contracts, with modifications, were signed by the Liberals.

Critics of public-private partnerships, including this newspaper, have long argued that taxpayers do not necessarily save any money while private firms stand to gain huge profits. The Star has long argued that governments can borrow money and finance projects at a lower cost than the private sector. It is an argument that remains unchallenged by McGuinty.

At the same time, huge secrecy surrounds such projects. The Ontario Health Coalition has been trying in court for two years to learn the true cost of the Brampton hospital, which is nearing completion. The consortium has fought the disclosures, citing proprietary information.

Because of his policy reversal and with doubts about the financing arrangements, McGuinty needs to tell Ontario voters in clear, understandable language why he has changed his mind about public-private partnerships. If he believes this new approach to building much-needed hospitals is the right one, let him defend the policy openly and vigorously.

Otherwise, we are left with nagging doubts about who profits most in the end — Ontario taxpayers or the private sector.

Err.......just ignore the troll.

Earlier you had mentioned P3s. It sure seems like McGuinty is playing a lot of games here with his gobblygook. It sure seems there is no difference between the right wing Martin Liberals or provincial Liberals for that matter, and the right wing Harper Conservatives. Why bother changing the federal government for the Cons when you get the same thing with the Libs?

[err]

Earlier you had mentioned P3s. It sure seems like McGuinty is playing a lot of games here with his gobblygook.  It sure seems there is no difference between the right wing Martin Liberals or provincial Liberals for that matter, and the right wing Harper Conservatives. Why bother changing the federal government for the Cons when you get the same thing with the Libs?

I think there's a limit to the damage that the Liberals will inflict.. I can't say that I feel that's the case with the Conservatives..

Lets just hope that Jack can make the difference, like he did in the latest budget... Canadians aren't happy with either of the two mainstream parties, and Layton's shown where his priorities are, so let's hope...

[mcqueen625]

This is an absurd decision and a major copout. Doctors have been front and centre in the decision-making process of healthcare but no matter how much they earn they just never seem to have enough. Oh, those poor doctors, doesn't everybody feel sorry for them!

That may be what's happening in your neck of the woods but in my province, New Brunswick, the government has set up I believe 7 healthcare corporations around the province, each with it's own Board of Directors, and an Executive team to run the everyday operations. Our provincial government has actually made it law that medical doctor's cannot sit on any of these Board's. When decisions are made concerning the delivery of medical services there is no actual input from the medical community even though it is the medical community that will be expected to live with any decisions that are made. In essence decisions are being made by people who have expertise in either business or law. That scenario certainly doesn't make me fell all warm and fuzzy.

My own Family doctor has told me that he has been written up by administration for keeping patients in hospital beds longer than "THEY" deem should be necessary, even though these people have no medical backgrounds. The CEO herself apparently treats doctors as if they are so much dirt under her feet and she has absolutely no time to listen to medical rationale, and peoples' health is secondary, and her concern is the budget constraints, and finding ways to cut costs.

I once attended an annual meeting and the guest speaker was a professor of criminology. His contention of what is wrong with many organizations today such as prisons, hospitals, and other institution is that Board's are hiring people to run their facilities whos' claim to fame is an MBA. They have absolutely no clue as to what the entity they are operating is supposed to accomplish of the reason for it's existance, they simply concern themselves with staying within budget, and attempting to find efficiencies. If that means the laying off of guards in the case of prison's, or doctors and nurses in the case of a healthcare facility that is okay, because to them they just represent an unnecessary expense that they would rather do without. They don't care that the purpose of a prison is to house violent people, and to protect society from these violent people, and they don't care in the case of healthcare, that it requires adequate medical personnel to treat ill people, because these people just represent to them an impediment between them and cost effectness. Bonuses are earned by shaving costs from the operation.

The CMA stated that there is a direct corralation between the spread of antibiotic-resistant staph infections and inadequate cleaning of healthcare facilities, brought on by the reductions in staffing levels of housekeeping personnel. These are decision being made by MBA types or beancounters. Common-sense is not a prerequisite for holding either a BBA, or an MBA.

[shoop]

I think there's a limit to the damage that the Liberals will inflict.. I can't say that I feel that's the case with the Conservatives..

Lets just hope that Jack can make the difference, like he did in the latest budget... Canadians aren't happy with either of the two mainstream parties, and Layton's shown where his priorities are, so let's hope...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm, the Liberals have proven the damage they will inflict. The Conservatives potential for damage is all illusory scare-mongering that ultimately helps the Liberals.

How much of the "difference" Jack made has been implemented so far? Zero. What you say none of it will be instituted before February 2006 when Martin has promised the next election?

Boy what a great difference indeed.

[mcqueen625]

Hmmm, the Liberals have proven the damage they will inflict. The Conservatives potential for damage is all illusory scare-mongering that ultimately helps the Liberals.

How much of the "difference" Jack made has been implemented so far? Zero. What you say none of it will be instituted before February 2006 when Martin has promised the next election?

Boy what a great difference indeed. 

I totally agree with your take on the Liberal's, and I don't believe that the NDP's grandstanding have done anything but to help this corrupt government to stay in power. I believe that the NDP supported the Liberals because they were frightened to death that they will lose what little support they do have. Myself I used to vote exclusively NDP, but ever since Alexia decided to make the NDP a Liberal clone, I have stopped supporting them.

As an aside, I will also not vote for any Party that voted to change the traditional definition of marriage.

[Argus]

Because the MAJORITY OF CANADIANS WHAT PUBLIC HEALTH CARE!!! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uhm, no. The majority want health care that works. Right now that's not public health care.

And by your response, are you suggesting that Canadians would want a "pay for" system that will cost them more money ??? Get real...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Canadians are willing to pay more for a system which will work. Clearly they no longer have much faith that simply putting more money into the public system will make it work.

[mirror]

Here is something which caught me eye which should be a boost and a shot in the arm to Canada's public health care system.

DOCTORS ARE COMING HOME TO CANADA

New numbers reverse 30-year trend

[err]

I think there's a limit to the damage that the Liberals will inflict.. I can't say that I feel that's the case with the Conservatives..

Lets just hope that Jack can make the difference, like he did in the latest budget... Canadians aren't happy with either of the two mainstream parties, and Layton's shown where his priorities are, so let's hope...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm, the Liberals have proven the damage they will inflict. The Conservatives potential for damage is all illusory scare-mongering that ultimately helps the Liberals.

One of the scarier things about the possibility of the Conservatives getting in is that they might implement "conservative" policies like those touted by yourself and Renegade....

Harper's flip-flops on abortion in the run-up to the last election were all the proof that I needed that he (and his party) are completely untrustworthy. First "They are going to change (abortion) policy"... and they see the public tone is against them ... then "Harper won't, but he won't stop a private member's bill", then "We aren't against abortion".... It tells me that they are liars....

The Liberals are liars too. But the conservatives are right wing liars. The Fiberals at least pretend to have the public interests in mind pre-election... with socialistic sounding speeches from Martin... but when he gets in, he's a conservative... (fiscally). It scares me to think of what Harper would do once he got in and took off his mask....

How much of the "difference" Jack made has been implemented so far? Zero. What you say none of it will be instituted before February 2006 when Martin has promised the next election?

Boy what a great difference indeed. 

Just because the Liberals stabbed Layton in the back, it doesn't take from what Layton tried to do. But think of this... He did it on front of a watching nation.... That will help to kill Martin in the polls at the next election... and it can only increase Layton's popularity...

[err]

Canadians are willing to pay more for a system which will work. Clearly they no longer have much faith that simply putting more money into the public system will make it work.

And the "pay for two systems" + $10 scheme that you're promoting... Most Canadians aren't dumb enough to fall for that one.....

[err]

That may be what's happening in your neck of the woods but in my province, New Brunswick, the government has set up I believe 7 healthcare corporations around the province, each with it's own Board of Directors, and an Executive team to run the everyday operations. Our provincial government has actually made it law that medical doctor's cannot sit on any of these Board's.  When decisions are made concerning the delivery of medical services there is no actual input from the medical community even though it is the medical community that will be expected to live with any decisions that are made. In essence decisions are being made by people who have expertise in either business or law. That scenario certainly doesn't make me fell all warm and fuzzy.

Good post. I certainly agree that our medicare system should not be treated as a "business", with business models used to make all of the decisions. Our health care system should be run with an aim to provide a fully functional, decent system, with an eye on the economics of the whole situation. However, the goal is to provide health care, not turn a profit, operate on a budget dreamed up by a slick business man, etc...

I think, if we are to fix our health care system, we have to reverse much of the damage that Paul Martin did to it while he was finance minister (and Prime Minister...) The Conservatives said that Martin didn't cut enough from health care, so I guess we have to look to the left if we are going to rescue our health care and turn it into the system it was intended to be ....

[Argus]

Canadians are willing to pay more for a system which will work. Clearly they no longer have much faith that simply putting more money into the public system will make it work.

And the "pay for two systems" + $10 scheme that you're promoting... Most Canadians aren't dumb enough to fall for that one.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A lot of Canadians are bright enough to understand that if you hit your head into a brick wall a few hundred times without damaging the brick wall, your chances of accomplishing anything by doing it again are pretty damned slim.

The public system is in the toilet. It was in the toilet last year too. It was in the toilet ten years ago. Canadians have heard liberal politicians bleating about their determination to save the system for too many years - while the system gets worse and worse. They no longer believe there is any chance of changing the system for the better. All the money put into the system so far will make _zero_ difference. In fact, wait times are getting worse, and will continue to get worse as the boomers age. Canadians are tired of your wretched, broken, incompetent system.

They want a new system.

[Argus]

I think, if we are to fix our health care system, we have to reverse much of the damage that Paul Martin did to it while he was finance minister (and Prime Minister...)  The Conservatives said that Martin didn't cut enough from health care, so I guess we have to look to the left if we are going to rescue our health care and turn it into the system it was intended to be ....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Would you care to offer up a cite to back up "the Conservatives said that Martin didn't cut enough from health care." ?

[err]

A lot of Canadians are bright enough to understand that if you hit your head into a brick wall a few hundred times without damaging the brick wall, your chances of accomplishing anything by doing it again are pretty damned slim.

and do I infer that you learned the hard way ??

The public system is in the toilet. It was in the toilet last year too. It was in the toilet ten years ago. Canadians have heard liberal politicians bleating about their determination to save the system for too many years - while the system gets worse and worse.

Then don't vote Liberal... And don't vote Conservative, because they think that the Liberals haven't cut enough from health care... which is what they have done.. You shouldn't believe politicians (especially Liberal ones) when they say the've put "more money than ever" into health care... If you want to see real improvement in health care... try NDP next time...

They no longer believe there is any chance of changing the system for the better. All the money put into the system so far will make _zero_ difference. In fact, wait times are getting worse, and will continue to get worse as the boomers age. Canadians are tired of your wretched, broken, incompetent system.

Who is "they"...

[Argus]

The public system is in the toilet. It was in the toilet last year too. It was in the toilet ten years ago. Canadians have heard liberal politicians bleating about their determination to save the system for too many years - while the system gets worse and worse.

Then don't vote Liberal... And don't vote Conservative, because they think that the Liberals haven't cut enough from health care..

You were going to give me a cite to support that statement about the Conservatives, were you not?

If you want to see real improvement in health care... try NDP next time...

Unfortunately, originality is not the NDP's forte. Their health care policy, such as it is, was written when Stalin was still reverred as the founder of the great Soviet Union. I have listened to them over the past few years for any contribution to the health care problem and heard nothing but "Spend more! Spend more! Spend still more!" I could have written the Romanow Commision report immediately after hearing it was going to be led by a former NDP premier. In fact, I did, more or less. I said it would call for much more money, and more bureacracy to ensure the provinces didn't violate the Canada Health Act in any way. That is more or less what it said.

The last group I expect to make any real contribution to resolving the health care crisis is the NDP. On the contrary, their obstinate refusal to even consider alternatives to the present Communist-style system is one of the impediments to real progress.

They no longer believe there is any chance of changing the system for the better. All the money put into the system so far will make _zero_ difference. In fact, wait times are getting worse, and will continue to get worse as the boomers age. Canadians are tired of your wretched, broken, incompetent system.

Who is "they"...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That would be the majority of Canadians - the ones who, according to surveys, now want access to more private health care.

[err]

Then don't vote Liberal... And don't vote Conservative, because they think that the Liberals haven't cut enough from health care..

You were going to give me a cite to support that statement about the Conservatives, were you not?

The conservatives, in the last election, stated that Martin "had not cut enough"

If you want to see real improvement in health care... try NDP next time...

Unfortunately, originality is not the NDP's forte. I have listened to them over the past few years for any contribution to the health care problem and heard nothing but "Spend more! Spend more! Spend still more!" .. blah, blah... I said it would call for much more money, and more bureacracy to ensure the provinces didn't violate the Canada Health Act in any way. That is more or less what it said.

And in terms of inflation adjusted dollars, % of GNP, or just about any other way you want to look at it, we're spending less than in the 70's.... Our fearless Liberal and Conservative leaders say "no, we cant keep throwing money at it"... "it costs too much"... etc... but at the same time, they're cutting taxes to corporate Canada... deep cuts... and because these cuts have taken revenue from the coffers... "there's just not enough"...

And then you have the Mike Harris Tories in Ontario, who knew they were in big trouble due to their "tax cuts", having cut over 8000 nurses jobs in Ontario, decided that they'd show the public that they were committed to health care spending. So they gave construction contracts to Tory-friendly construction companies to tear down a few hospitals... build a few hospitals, put on a few new wings on hospitals... One of our biggest health-care providers was Ellis-Don Construction if you went by dollar value.... The money didn't go to doctors, nurses and MRI machines...

Then we have loudmouths like yourself saying that "throwing money at the problem doesn't fix it".... How about trying to fix it... that's a good start.

Well the problem isn't fiscal, it's fiscal policy of the reigning government and its predecessors.

They aren't spending more, they're spending less, and trying to give the impression that our health care system is emptying the cookie jar... even though corporate Canada now needs dental care for all the cookies they got out of the same jar....

The last group I expect to make any real contribution to resolving the health care crisis is the NDP. On the contrary, their obstinate refusal to even consider alternatives to the present Communist-style system is one of the impediments to real progress.

Do we need a system like the USA, where over 100,000 people die each year due to the lack of health care ???

They no longer believe there is any chance of changing the system for the better. All the money put into the system so far will make _zero_ difference. In fact, wait times are getting worse, and will continue to get worse as the boomers age. Canadians are tired of your wretched, broken, incompetent system.

Who is "they"...

That would be the majority of Canadians - the ones who, according to surveys, now want access to more private health care.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Distorting the truth is the same as lying....

[Argus]

Then don't vote Liberal... And don't vote Conservative, because they think that the Liberals haven't cut enough from health care..

You were going to give me a cite to support that statement about the Conservatives, were you not?

The conservatives, in the last election, stated that Martin "had not cut enough"

In other words, they never said the Liberals should have cut more from health care. You simply made that up.

And in terms of inflation adjusted dollars, % of GNP, or just about any other way you want to look at it, we're spending less than in the 70's....

You mean the 70s when the reigning philosphy of federal fiscal management was to simply borrow whatever was needed and let someone else pay it back at some future time? Health care spending is consuming ever greater percentages of provincial budgets. Are you suggesting all of them - incuding the NDP ones, have been run by evil "neocons" who don't care about public health care?

Our fearless Liberal and Conservative leaders say "no, we cant keep throwing money at it"... "it costs too much"... etc... but at the same time, they're cutting taxes to corporate Canada... deep cuts... and because these cuts have taken revenue from the coffers... "there's just not enough"... 

You know, you don't have a lot of credibiilty on these issues. Maybe you should try and cite someone more reliable on tax cuts and health care spending. I haven't seen a lot of tax cuts lately, not ones which have anyone shouting hurrahs.

In any event, corporations are soulless entities. They are, however, owned by individuals - their stockholders. Corporations have only two things to do with profits; pass them on to their stockholders, who can be taxed, or put them back into increased production and expansion - which means more jobs. So tax cuts for corporations aren't neccesarily a terrible thing.

And then you have the Mike Harris Tories in Ontario, who knew they were in big trouble due to their "tax cuts", having cut over 8000 nurses jobs in Ontario, decided that they'd show the public that they were committed to health care spending.  So they gave construction contracts to Tory-friendly construction companies to tear down a few hospitals... build a few hospitals, put on a few new wings on hospitals...  One of our biggest health-care providers was Ellis-Don Construction if you went by dollar value....  The money didn't go to doctors, nurses and MRI machines... 

Oddly enough, you need to build walls in order to house those machines and doctors. The Harris philosophy was to close down under-utilized facilities and systems and put the money elsewhere. I had no problem with that then and I still don't. The construction went to government friendly firms? What a surprise! I bet that never happened when NDP governments issued the work orders!

They aren't spending more, they're spending less, and trying to give the impression that our health care system is emptying the cookie jar... even though corporate Canada now needs dental care for all the cookies they got out of the same jar....

Yes, it's all a grand conspiracy, all those evil Tory and Liberal governments over the past thirty years (we won't mention the NDP ones) in collusiion to benefit the evil rich.capitalists! We need a revolution, comrade! Down with the aristocrats! Power to the people! Eat the rich!

[Black Dog]

Of course no one wants 1500 private insurance plans here. No one has suggested we go the American route.

Despite the repeated assertion that we'd be using the "European" rather than the disastarous "American" health care model, isn't the problem that, thanks to NAFTA, once we open up the syetme to private insurance, we'll be inundated with American firms selling pretty much the same model as they use down there. So I'm skeptical that we'd be able to escape the shadow of American-style health care.

[Riverwind]

Despite the repeated assertion that we'd be using the "European" rather than the disastarous "American" health care model, isn't the problem that, thanks to NAFTA, once we open up the syetme to private insurance, we'll be inundated with American firms selling pretty much the same model as they use down there. So I'm skeptical that we'd be able to escape the shadow of American-style health care.

Two points:

1) NAFTA only requires equal treatment in the marketplace - it does not prevent gov't from setting rules for participation that ensure the 'American' model does not become the norm. As long as the Canadian gov't is up front with the terms and conditions then it cannot forced to change policies due to NAFTA.

2) Given the US attitude on softwood, the Canadian gov't can simply ignore an NAFTA tribual rulings on this issue.

[mirror]

How quickly we forget!

Recently a media outlet did a poll amonst Canadians asking their choice about who was the "greatest Canadian". Tommy Douglas, NDP Premier of Saskatchewan, and Founder of Canada's SINGLE-TIER PUBLCALLY FUNDED Medicare system was the winner.

I defy any political party to run on a platform of opposing single-tier publically funded heath care for Canada. They will get blown out of the water opposing the single most important value of Canadians.

As I have said before the NDP have policies they want Canadians to discuss but can't get them to do it, whereas the Tories have policies they don't want Canadians to discuss, but Canadians insist on doing it.

[Guest eureka]

One problem with your reasoning, Sparhawk, is that we would not ignore a NAFTA Tribunal since there would be no need for any such appeal.

Once opened to private medicine, any American Corporation can enter. We have no mechanism to prevent that other than withdrawal from NAFTA. Any American Corporation could directly sue our governments for loss of profits sustained by any attempt to regulate participation.

NAFRA is a minefield where the Americans know the locations of the buried mines. No wonder they withdrew from that obligation, too.

[Riverwind]

Once opened to private medicine, any American Corporation can enter. We have no mechanism to prevent that other than withdrawal from NAFTA. Any American Corporation could directly sue our governments for loss of profits sustained by any attempt to regulate participation.

Profits can only be recovered if the gov't changes the rules after the fact. The Canadian gov't can and should set clear guidelines that all participants must agree to before they are allowed to participate. These rules could warn all companies that over time part or all of the sectors that they operate in may be closed to them by regulation and they will be not be entitled to compensation. Asute companies will manage the risk of gov't regulation like any other risk. Companies that do not like such risks can choose not to participate. The important thing is there would be no discrimination between a Canadian and American private health provider and therefore no argument under NAFTA.