The BIBLE and SCIENCE

[charter.rights]

c-r is talking about our individual ideas being inseparable from a collective consciousness:

"It most certainly can be used to prove the existence of God as I described - the universe of connectedness and collective consciousness. The Bible describes this as "The Christ" - the universal thread that flows through all of us."

All of your thinking matter is energy. And so any interaction you may perceive is likely an idea - one that is not separate or private from the rest of the other energy beings - that is formed from the energy of other ideas.

That sounds like "telepathy" to me, but call it what you wish.

Neutrinos, radon, alpha and beta particles, and other radioactive energy flows through all materials (well lead does slow down alpha and beta) as if it wasn't there. At the quantum level there is no difference between these energy particles and all the rest that matter is comprised of. That is the reason we can be affected by radioactive particles - because at an atomic / sub-atomic level the bits that make up our atoms and molecules cannot distinguish from the radioactive ones. At nuclear bombardment free protons and electrons readily exchange with other atoms causing a reaction. So no it isn't telepathy it is science - quantum reality.

That's how I describe the theories c-r is advancing.

You are so stuck in materialism - as being the end all - that you have no abililty to understand what we are discussing let alone paraphrasing it.

Find a more generous description if you wish, but you'll just be putting lipstick on a pig.

A blond statement, no doubt.

I've said a number of times that the same argument is equally applicable to any means which could be used to convey an idea from one brain to the other without the means of the senses.

Thought is ethereal. Ideas are immaterial and the electrical changes as a result of thinking (all of which can be measured and recorded) interacts with other energy. Thought experiments have establish that thought can have an effect on material things, yet it has not been repeated often enough to make it a scientific law.

But it doesn't address my point. Does your brain perceive light directly? No. It doesn't perceive light at all. It receives electrochemical impulses from a highly refined optical sensor.

If you have a cite I would sure like to see where you get this from. To my knowledge it is not something that has been postulated.

I'm not arguing that we can't share information through the use of our senses. I'm arguing that we don't (and can't) receive ideas directly out of the "electron soup". As I said in my previous post:

You don't get it. Were way below physiological responses. We are even way beyond intelligent cellular responses. We are beyond the atomic level. You are stuck in the clouds.

If there is an idea in my brain, it got there through one of two ways: either I thought of it myself, or I received it through my senses (saw it, heard it, touched it, etc.)

Interestingly wrong. Brian function and thought occur even when we are unconscious - or in coma.

Another fine example of how ideas can be received through the senses, but nothing to support the theory that our brains are physically connected to a collective consciousness.

Again those blond roots have you going in the wrong direction. We're not discussing physicality. We're talking quantum particle to quantum particle.

I am asking how you got this:

I think c.r is saying that all ideas - products of the brain and thus neuroelectricity, are built upon other ideas from other people (energy beings at the quantum relaity level?) Which would suggest to me that c.r sees knowledge as 'built up' over time.

Knowledge is built up over time. This is most readily notable in animal "instinct". Those memories are store either at a cellular level being passed on through the genes, or the communication of ideas (and information) is available ~somewhere~ else (although the book is still out on that one).

...out of this:

"It most certainly can be used to prove the existence of God as I described - the universe of connectedness and collective consciousness. The Bible describes this as "The Christ" - the universal thread that flows through all of us."

You might want to go back and reread my definition of God (quantum God).

All of your thinking matter is energy. And so any interaction you may perceive is likely an idea - one that is not separate or private from the rest of the other energy beings - that is formed from the energy of other ideas.

Exactly the point. The fact that we have not been able to reliably tap into the flow (so to speak) does not eliminate the fact that ideas are ethereal and the electrical activity behind them can be measured at a macro level.

[whowhere]

Knowledge is built up over time. This is most readily notable in animal "instinct". Those memories are store either at a cellular level being passed on through the genes, or the communication of ideas (and information) is available ~somewhere~ else (although the book is still out on that one).

Instinct has to be a combination of DNA/nature and nuturing. Afterwhich actions are done without thought. If your DNA structure is flawed and you were not nutured properely you are stuck fixing and repairing a damaged "life". If you are trying to lay claim there is a collective unconscious where information is picked up on where your brain is picking up on this information I don't think so. However, that does not stop a super conscious such as a God with attuned sensory from tapping into your brain patterns and influencing your thoughts or through prayer you connect with that God. For this to occur would mean that God would have to be physically present in this world and give a rats ass about you.

Each brain likely has a unique brainwave pattern like fingerprints. I would think if you build a big enough listening device you could probably eavesdrop on someones thinking. It's fact people's brains do emit waves. Are these waves coherent and meaningful. Can they be interpreted by science? Yes because the US has developed Fighter planes that connect to peoples brains and are controlled accordingly.

[GostHacked]

..... At nuclear bombardment free protons and electrons readily exchange with other atoms causing a reaction. So no it isn't telepathy it is science - quantum reality.

Awesome so we are dealing with science.

You are so stuck in materialism - as being the end all - that you have no abililty to understand what we are discussing let alone paraphrasing it.

Well since science deals with the natural world around us, which is material(ism ?!?)

Thought is ethereal.

Science can't deal with ethereal ... can it? Corporeal (material) is what science deals with. Even if you are dealing with electrons, neutrons and such, all is still materialistic in nature because we can physically observe what happens. Even at a sub atomic level.

Ideas are immaterial and the electrical changes as a result of thinking (all of which can be measured and recorded) interacts with other energy. Thought experiments have establish that thought can have an effect on material things, yet it has not been repeated often enough to make it a scientific law.

So it is still a hypothesis. Unproven at best.

You don't get it. Were way below physiological responses. We are even way beyond intelligent cellular responses. We are beyond the atomic level. You are stuck in the clouds.

I prefer to be stuck in the ethereal.

Again those blond roots have you going in the wrong direction. We're not discussing physicality. We're talking quantum particle to quantum particle.

Which is still physicality. Just because it is invisible to the naked eye, does not mean it is not corporeal in nature. Quantum particles either take up space, or energy or both.

Knowledge is built up over time. This is most readily notable in animal "instinct". Those memories are store either at a cellular level being passed on through the genes, or the communication of ideas (and information) is available ~somewhere~ else (although the book is still out on that one).

Many scientists are of the notion that much of instinct is encoded into the DNA. But in the end you are just making a conjecture.

Exactly the point. The fact that we have not been able to reliably tap into the flow (so to speak) does not eliminate the fact that ideas are ethereal and the electrical activity behind them can be measured at a macro level.

So this is all hypothetical at best. For the time being.

[kimmy]

See, Shwa? She's not talking about television or using your eyes to receive information. She's talking about radiation.

And so Shannon's Law is completely applicable: a communications channel with an infinitely low signal to noise ratio has an infinitely low data capacity, which means it would take an infinitely long time to transmit a message.

Calling something that could never send a message a "collective consciousness" would be inane.

It would be like calling my coffee cup an "artificial intelligence"... maybe it could be one, but has yet to complete its first thought.

blond roots

yeah, juvenile insults are a good way to make yourself look smarter.

-k

[charter.rights]

No. You are still at the hairdressers on this one and you are all tinfoil coiffed. Shannon's Law is irrelevent to the discussion and you are clearly out of your league here.

Radiation occurs at the molecular level. I present that as an example that refutes your idea that thought is not effected by outside influences. Free radicals interfere with our entire cellular structure at the molecular level. You are wrong, again.

Neutrinos occur at an atomic level and we are way beyond that.

Quantum mechanical theory occurs at at a sum-molecular / sub-atomic level. The same stuff (quarks) that make up the universes make up atoms. They are neither electrical entities or matter and they are both at the same time. Quite a paradox.......

Everything at the quantum level is indistinguishable from every other thing. At this level charged particles don't recognize boundaries because there is no such thing as molecules and atoms - the basic building blocks of the material universe. At the quantum level, there is no difference between the air that we breath and mountain of rock. Everything is moving and interchanging.

Ideas - thoughts and brain activity - result in certain energy patterns that can be measured outside of the human body. So it is true that if your thoughts can extend outside of your brain (and exist independent of your brain - i.e. thought experiments that have established that thought can influence external energies) then all that brain information can be moved through space freely and combine with other thought energy, as well as flow through all material in the universe unencumbered at the quantum level.

Now if we define God as the quantum interaction between all things then The Christ as mentioned in the Bible is the flow that moves from one thing to another evidence by the interaction between ~things~.

Matthew 19:26

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

And thus God is not an entity outside of ourselves, nor are we separate from anything else, but all things are God - including us, but no less than the trees and the stars. The only thing separating us from God, or us from others, or us from the trees and the stars is our perceptions that we have maintained a separation. For all intents and purposes trees and air and insects may not share the same perceptions. And when a mosquito bites it may well be that it becomes part of us for a purpose and then moves on...as it perceives itself in its own universe subject to its own laws. At the quantum level of reality, perceptions don't matter and do not have any influence on "what is".

Matthew 12:50

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

[whowhere]

And thus God is not an entity outside of ourselves, nor are we separate from anything else, but all things are God - including us, but no less than the trees and the stars. The only thing separating us from God, or us from others, or us from the trees and the stars is our perceptions that we have maintained a separation. For all intents and purposes trees and air and insects may not share the same perceptions. And when a mosquito bites it may well be that it becomes part of us for a purpose and then moves on...as it perceives itself in its own universe subject to its own laws. At the quantum level of reality, perceptions don't matter and do not have any influence on "what is".

Once again you say alot about nothing. What is God, just a word, a word to open your mouth in ahh and say this word is in everything. What you are eluding is whether you think there is an intelligent being behind what you are saying. All things are God?? Right!! All things were created by God but not God. That's the claim. A distinct diffence. It sounds like you are injecting East Indian philosophy into Chritianity and trying to convince everyone around you that is real meaning behind christianity. You Cannot elude jesus existed and according to jesus the God of the OT exists. Also in the OT and the NT there are angels who work on heavens behalf. The NT is a nice fairytale and a good read to put you to sleep but none of it has come to pass.

In the mean time man will continue to observe nature and figure out patches and work arounds to prolong and extend man's abilities and grasps. There is no evidence of any God working in this world for the last 3000 years of history never mind your cockamamee which really doesn't serve to help anyone except maybe lure people to put money into the basket of their choice christian church. I suspect that's the real motive behind your BS.

[ToadBrother]

Everything at the quantum level is indistinguishable from every other thing. At this level charged particles don't recognize boundaries because there is no such thing as molecules and atoms - the basic building blocks of the material universe. At the quantum level, there is no difference between the air that we breath and mountain of rock. Everything is moving and interchanging.

Okay, let's stop right here. What you've written is garbage, pure and simple. You have no idea what you're talking about. Yes, things work differently than every-day experience at the quantum level (physicists tend to talk of a quantum soup or a quantum foam, with particles bubbling into existence and out of it existence), but there are still definable particles. In fact, that's rather the point. What you seem to be referring to is the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, which states that you can know the position of a particle, or its momentum, to some precision, but not both. It doesn't mean theres no such thing as no distinguishing. Very obviously there is, as there are particles that transmit forces (we're looking for the Higgs Boson, which is theorized to carry gravity). But whatever chaos there is at the quantum level, once you reach the atomic level or greater, it "smooths out", so that small scale uncertainty becomes large scale order.

This is what irritates me about people like you. You read headlines, or some crackpot who invokes the word "quantum" to justify any manner of pure B.S., but you don't have the wits or the energy to even bother finding out what the science actually says. The problem is that you get a gaggle of likeminded people together and they start babbling this garbage off.

For the record, Penrose's notions of a quantum element to consciousness was pretty much rejected right away, simply because the activity of the brain happens at the molecular level. The level of uncertainty is extraordinarily small at the energy and temperature levels to be found in the brain. To have matter and energy exhibit quantum behaviors generally requires some effort, or at least sufficient miniaturization (ie. with modern semi-conductors, where extremely small logic gates are at a sufficient size where you start dealing with individual electrons, and have to be concerned by effects like tunneling). The brain does not function at that level, and thus any quantum effects would be too small and rare to be considered of any meaningful influence.

[charter.rights]

This is what irritates me about people like you. You read headlines, or some crackpot who invokes the word "quantum" to justify any manner of pure B.S., but you don't have the wits or the energy to even bother finding out what the science actually says.

You might want to go back and reread the science available on the subject. You are about a decade out of date.

Yes quarks exist and there are many different types. But those bits of stuff make up everything in the universe and there is no difference between and rock and an ice cream sundae on that level. I am refuting Kimmy's baseless ideas about the universe and you popped in where you have no idea.

Go complain to someone else. You need to inhale yourself first though.....I mean you are so full of yourself bloating is probably a chronic condition....

Edited January 30, 2010 by charter.rights

[charter.rights]

Once again you say alot about nothing. What is God, just a word, a word to open your mouth in ahh and say this word is in everything. What you are eluding is whether you think there is an intelligent being behind what you are saying. All things are God?? Right!! All things were created by God but not God. That's the claim. A distinct diffence. It sounds like you are injecting East Indian philosophy into Chritianity and trying to convince everyone around you that is real meaning behind christianity. You Cannot elude jesus existed and according to jesus the God of the OT exists. Also in the OT and the NT there are angels who work on heavens behalf. The NT is a nice fairytale and a good read to put you to sleep but none of it has come to pass.

In the mean time man will continue to observe nature and figure out patches and work arounds to prolong and extend man's abilities and grasps. There is no evidence of any God working in this world for the last 3000 years of history never mind your cockamamee which really doesn't serve to help anyone except maybe lure people to put money into the basket of their choice christian church. I suspect that's the real motive behind your BS.

This is why you are stuck where you are and it is no wonder you advocate crime as a means of salvation. And yes there is lots of evidence of God in this world. You are just not capable of seeing it.

Edited January 30, 2010 by charter.rights

[Guest TrueMetis]

You might want to go back and reread the science available on the subject. You are about a decade out of date.

Yes quarks exist and there are many different types. But those bits of stuff make up everything in the universe and there is no difference between and rock and an ice cream sundae on that level. I am refuting Kimmy's baseless ideas about the universe and you popped in where you have no idea.

Go complain to someone else. You need to inhale yourself first though.....I mean you are so full of yourself bloating is probably a chronic condition....

You do realize that we don't live on the quantum level? What happens on the quantum level is largely irrelevent to us.

[charter.rights]

You do realize that we don't live on the quantum level? What happens on the quantum level is largely irrelevent to us.

Only in your dreams.

Reality is the lowest common denominator. Quantum reality is all there is. All the rest is an illusion.

[whowhere]

Only in your dreams.

Reality is the lowest common denominator. Quantum reality is all there is. All the rest is an illusion.

Who taught you those words? The Illusionary world or the world you see?

[ToadBrother]

Only in your dreams.

Reality is the lowest common denominator. Quantum reality is all there is. All the rest is an illusion.

More New Age bullcrap. Matter exists, energy exists. You'll find no support for the BS you've been peddling in science.

[ToadBrother]

You might want to go back and reread the science available on the subject. You are about a decade out of date.

Quarks have been known about for more than a decade. As to Quantum Mechanics, well that's been in development for over a century.

Yes quarks exist and there are many different types. But those bits of stuff make up everything in the universe and there is no difference between and rock and an ice cream sundae on that level. I am refuting Kimmy's baseless ideas about the universe and you popped in where you have no idea.

This is like saying "My computer contains only 1s and 0s, and no higher level data". Just because things are made of building blocks doesn't mean the only real thing is the building blocks. There are plenty of emergent properties in the universe.

[whowhere]

This is like saying "My computer contains only 1s and 0s, and no higher level data". Just because things are made of building blocks doesn't mean the only real thing is the building blocks. There are plenty of emergent properties in the universe.

That is true, it's called machine language. Higher languages are used to interface with the computer. Supposedly the human Body is made up of trillions of cells. How these cells communicate with each other could be coined the human body/machine language and make up the unconscious mind. We don't know how we are able to move our legs or arms, we do it. The brain and its sensory interprets its environment and this is interpreted by the cells of the body somehow. Perhaps the next huge break through for science, that would be as monumental as the DNA discovery is to learn the language of the Human Body.

CR believes we are in some Matrix (yeah the movie) and we are networked together. I wonder what drugs he's been on to draw that conclusion. After the drugs ware off was he able to replicate those experiences without them? Not likely. What he is insisting is, just isn't so. The world is governed by Gravity, Energy from the Sun, Energy from the Wind, and cold when the Sun is at its greatest distance from that part of the earth and there is cloud cover. All life on earth has to cope with these realities to sustain our lives. Our world is hard wired to these realities. How is what he is talking about help you deal with these environmental factors.

At least in star trek they were able to teleport. To accomplish that you would certainly have to break down the body to pure energy and reassemble it. Perhaps CR knows how to accomplish this so we can start embracing teleport technology. He appears to be throwing out all kinds of information that would lean towards this technological milestone. If his information somehow translated into teleport technology, I am not sure what that would have to do with this christ consciousness he's been going on about.

[GostHacked]

This is why you are stuck where you are and it is no wonder you advocate crime as a means of salvation. And yes there is lots of evidence of God in this world. You are just not capable of seeing it.

Right, I've been told I need my biblical glasses in order to see the evidence.

Toad Brother

Very obviously there is, as there are particles that transmit forces (we're looking for the Higgs Boson, which is theorized to carry gravity).

This is what the LHC is for. Once we find that sucker, it will be a game changer for sure !!

[bloodyminded]

Right, I've been told I need my biblical glasses in order to see the evidence.

Yes, it's a wonderful point of argument, isn't it?: "there is plenty of evidence for God, but you are not capable of seeing it."

OK, excellent. I'm game. So...why not? If it's actually "evidence," and if the word "evidence" is a real word with a real denotation, then this "evidence" should be explainable; someone should be able to point me towards the evidence...rather than endlessly repeating to me that I can't see it.

See, there's no need to convince me on that point; I already KNOW I can't see the evidence. So, let's move on, shall we?

Show me where the evidence is, and explain it to me.

[kimmy]

No. You are still at the hairdressers on this one and you are all tinfoil coiffed.

I find it quite amusing that you keep giving me these little put-downs, in the midst of making a complete fool of yourself by posting this junk-science.

Shannon's Law is irrelevent to the discussion and you are clearly out of your league here.

I'm out of my league? You're out of your league. Not only are you out of your league, you also don't even know what sport you're actually playing. Your posts don't actually indicate that you know anything about quantum mechanics. You wandered through the lobby, leafed through the brochures, and picked up some buzz-words and catch phrases. Your understanding of modern physics appears to be based on having watched a few episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

You are postulating a means of communication, so Shannon's Law is not just applicable, it's unavoidable. It's applicable to any system of communication, from smoke signals to snail-mail to semaphore to cell-phones to the system you're proposing. All that is left for us is to quantify a signal to noise ratio... which for the system you're describing, could be shown to be arbitrarily close to zero.

The argument I'm presenting is way above your level of sophistication, but I'm sure you're still going to dispute it in a way that demonstrates not only that you don't understand what I'm saying, but also that you don't even understand what you're saying. Looking forward to it; should be hilarious.

Radiation occurs at the molecular level. I present that as an example that refutes your idea that thought is not effected by outside influences. Free radicals interfere with our entire cellular structure at the molecular level. You are wrong, again.

The fact that radiation can affect molecules in our body is not proof that it can effect (or affect) thought.

You're claiming a scientific proof that thought is influenced by outside forces. The scientific understanding of thought is based on the action of neurons. Influencing a molecule isn't sufficient to cause a whole neuron to act. You have to influence millions of molecules, at once, in the same way.

To put it in terms you're more likely to understand: you're showing me that you can splash handfuls of water around in the lake. But to effect/affect a thought, you have to move the whole lake at once. And to effect communication, you have to be able to move the whole lake from place to place repeatably.

The mechanisms you're describing are so far below the requirements of establishing a means of communication as to be not even worth discussing.

Neutrinos occur at an atomic level and we are way beyond that.

Quantum mechanical theory occurs at at a sum-molecular / sub-atomic level. The same stuff (quarks) that make up the universes make up atoms. They are neither electrical entities or matter and they are both at the same time. Quite a paradox.......

Everything at the quantum level is indistinguishable from every other thing. At this level charged particles don't recognize boundaries because there is no such thing as molecules and atoms - the basic building blocks of the material universe. At the quantum level, there is no difference between the air that we breath and mountain of rock. Everything is moving and interchanging.

And yet you're able to type? How come your fingers don't just pass right through the keys? Why does that mountain stay a mountain? Why doesn't air start turning into mountains? How do you eat? Why do you even bother eating? How come your body hasn't just vanished into disassociated quarks traveling in random directions at high velocities? Why does nuclear fission require work to achieve? Why does nuclear fission release so much energy? Do nuclear explosions just randomly occur where you live? Why don't they?

Ponder the answer to these questions, and then ponder how that relates to your argument, and let us know what you come up with.

Ideas - thoughts and brain activity - result in certain energy patterns that can be measured outside of the human body. So it is true that if your thoughts can extend outside of your brain (and exist independent of your brain - i.e. thought experiments that have established that thought can influence external energies)

Saying that the electromagnetic fields resulting during thought *are* thought is like saying that thunder *is* lightning. The electrochemical effect in your brain is the thought. The electromagnetic fields you can observe outside someone's head are a measurable result of thought, not thought itself.

then all that brain information can be moved through space freely and combine with other thought energy,

...and claiming that the measurable aftereffect of thought will travel elsewhere and combine with thought again is like claiming that thunder travels elsewhere and turns back into lightning.

as well as flow through all material in the universe unencumbered at the quantum level.

And here you're just combining fancy words you heard on Star Trek with the

.

-k

[whowhere]

You're claiming a scientific proof that thought is influenced by outside forces. The scientific understanding of thought is based on the action of neurons. Influencing a molecule isn't sufficient to cause a whole neuron to act. You have to influence millions of molecules, at once, in the same way.

Are you saying you have never been distracted?

[charter.rights]

I find it quite amusing that you keep giving me these little put-downs, in the midst of making a complete fool of yourself by posting this junk-science....blah blah blah......

-k

So you don't understand any of it. I knew you wouldn't because well....some blonds are not very smart....

You are soooooo lost that maybe you might want to stop eating ice cream while reading all this. Brain freeze has obviously taken over.

Your response is so comical that I can't stop laughing long enough to type out anything in terms that you might understand. Of course I could use a Dick, Jane and Spot analogy but I'm afraid given your last response even that would be too complicated for you. So I'll just leave you with something pertinent:

Brain matter, thinking and neurons are not anymore real than you putting makeup on and pretending that you are someone else. All it is, is an illusion (and very much a delusion). Take a look in the night sky and then ask yourself...what is the Milky Way? We all have something in common.

Edited February 1, 2010 by charter.rights

[Guest TrueMetis]

Charter stick to First Nation activism at least you don't make a complete ass of yourself when you do that.

[charter.rights]

Metis. Stick to glue and gas. Huffing seems to make you seem smarter than you are in real life....

[Guest TrueMetis]

Metis. Stick to glue and gas. Huffing seems to make you seem smarter than you are in real life....

You're truly pathetic.

Edited February 1, 2010 by TrueMetis

[charter.rights]

You're truly pathetic.

Yes you truly are.

[whowhere]

Brain matter, thinking and neurons are not anymore real than you putting makeup on and pretending that you are someone else. All it is, is an illusion (and very much a delusion). Take a look in the night sky and then ask yourself...what is the Milky Way? We all have something in common.

What is wrong with you? I read between the lines and buddy you are not christian and if you try to get through the The pearly gates you will be tossed into the reject bin. All your ideas are East Indian Philosophy. Hari Krishna is your God whether you realize it or not. The only one who is delusional is you. I suggest you start using words in their context. The world we are in is the Real world. The world you are talking about is between you and your drugs. I suggest you pick up a dictionary and start looking up the meaning of the words you are using. Of course you don't need to because in your world all words mean the same so why bother having a dictionary.