Mixed Member Proportional representation

[jbg]

Technically, I think that the self-determination of peoples is not illegal, although the manner in which some try to achieve it can be. In all the years that the issue has existed, it has largely been non-militant. When the political process wasn't going the way they wanted, the Quebec people formed a political party both federally and provincially in order to have the issue addressed. It now appears that the issue has played itself out, and people in Quebec want to get on with life and participate in a prosperous Canada. Argueably, the same thing could happen with Indian issues, but the electoral system is no geared to giving isolated groups scattered across the country the same right to representation. As a result, we will have to continue to contend with annoying and regressive tactics like "site occupations," tires burning in streets, blockaded railways...

My own view of "self-determination" is a little different. Many people didn't seek it prior to end of WW II because of lack of economic viability of any independent unit.

As a result of the implosion of the Ottoman and British Empire as a direct consequence of WW I and II, and the spread of international aid, self-determination became both a possibility and necessity. It became extremely interesting and lucrative for potential dictatorial thugs who could get their paws on streams of incoming aid, with no accountability. That is why "independent" Africa is far more miserable than the life "inflicted" by the colonialists.

[scribblet]

In Canada often when a group has a different viewpoint or ideology, they start up a new party and then complain when they can't get elected.

MMPR will add an additional 29 MPPs to the Ontario Legislature at an annual cost of $3.2 million to Ontario taxpayers, and will eliminate 17 electoral districts creating less local representation. Not to mention that this form of electoral system has had on the many European countries that have adopted this system, we know that MMPR has a propensity toward chronic minority governments, and natural force to tile governments to the left. And - will those 29 members be accountable to the people or the party?

As another aside, Australia's electoral system works because they require all people to vote by law, or they are fined and New Zealand is looking at having another referendum to get rid of theirs.

[kengs333]

In Canada often when a group has a different viewpoint or ideology, they start up a new party and then complain when they can't get elected.

MMPR will add an additional 29 MPPs to the Ontario Legislature at an annual cost of $3.2 million to Ontario taxpayers, and will eliminate 17 electoral districts creating less local representation. Not to mention that this form of electoral system has had on the many European countries that have adopted this system, we know that MMPR has a propensity toward chronic minority governments, and natural force to tile governments to the left. And - will those 29 members be accountable to the people or the party?

As another aside, Australia's electoral system works because they require all people to vote by law, or they are fined and New Zealand is looking at having another referendum to get rid of theirs.

There aren't actually "many European countries" that have adopted MMP, and those that have have shown no signs of instability or "bogged down" governments as naysayers have claimed would result. Minority governments often function better because they rely on compromise to succeed; coalition governments also represent the majority of voters, which is usually not the case in Canada when a party has the majority. Many majority governments in Canada usually have about 40% of the vote. That means the minority usually rules over the majority, and that's just not democratic in my opinion.

The candidates on the party list would not be appointed by the party, and ultimately they would be accountable to the people because if they don't conduct themselves as they should, they will either not be on the party list the next time around, or people won't vote for the party if they are. Also, members on party lists are just as interested in a political career as those who run in ridings, and may eventually want to run as candidates in a riding, so what they do while party list candidates will be noticed.

Just because there are some in NZ who want to undo the change to MMP doesn't mean the system doesn't work. The fact that politics in NZ functions perfectly fine and is more representative now is a clear indication of why MMP is worth adopting.

[Canadian Blue]

If we know that MMP doesnt work, and we know that FPTP doesn't work, where does that leave us.

So what system should we adopt in Canada then to help reform electoral politics so every vote counts, yet at the same time can leave out the "fringe" element.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/...ubs/bp334-e.htm

Edited October 5, 2007 by Canadian Blue

[mikedavid00]

I never thought I'd agree with Ms Copps, but here is a quote from a Toronto Star column which I don't have the link for anymore. There is no doubt in my mind that the proposed system will give smaller radical groups, more clout than they should have.

SEE I TOLD YOU!

JBG AND ME TOLD YOU GUYS SO.

I JUST KNEW THIS WOULD BENEFIT THEM AND BANG ON I WAS RIGHT.

Thanks to JBG for having the honesty and courage to be unbiased, and well read as he always is.

[M.Dancer]

If we know that MMP doesnt work, and we know that FPTP doesn't work, where does that leave us.

So what system should we adopt in Canada then to help reform electoral politics so every vote counts, yet at the same time can leave out the "fringe" element.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/...ubs/bp334-e.htm

FPTP works fine. The problem isn't the system, the problem is too many people don't bother to vote or to keep abreast of the issues.

[mikedavid00]

If we know that MMP doesnt work, and we know that FPTP doesn't work, where does that leave us.

So what system should we adopt in Canada then to help reform electoral politics so every vote counts, yet at the same time can leave out the "fringe" element.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/...ubs/bp334-e.htm

Simple. You need an electoral college system like in the US.

That's why their political system is the best. It just works so well and is hard to exploit.

[kengs333]

FPTP works fine. The problem isn't the system, the problem is too many people don't bother to vote or to keep abreast of the issues.

It only works fine if you want to maintain the status quo and deny the majority of Canadians representation in government. It's actually quite simple, and should be evident to anyone who claims to pay some attention to the Canadian political process. FPTP allows for governments to ignore issues which have no political value. An example would be the issue of Japanese Canadians, who after being ignored for many decades only received what they were looking for when the Conservatives came to power and they wanted to do something to prove to Canadians that they supposedly can get things done, unlike the Liberals.

[mikedavid00]

FPTP works fine. The problem isn't the system, the problem is too many people don't bother to vote or to keep abreast of the issues.

I disagree.

You should be requred to vote of fined. THis ensures true democracy. Currently we do not have a true democracy. Neither does the US. (in technicalities, 100% of people most vote to be considered a democracy).

If you have not lived in Canada for 10 years, you should not be able to vote.

If you are under the age of retirement and not paying taxes, you should not be able to vote.

If you are collecting old age welfare, you get no vote.

Oh God.. i'm listening to the CBC radio and they are discussing Thanks Giving.. and now this immigrant is calling in who I can barely understand. He's talking about 'his Country' and what they do there for thanks giving. This guy is from Ethiopia. She's asking if he does anything for thanks giving here.. and he says 'no'. He says he misses back home. Now he's saying that there is a large Ethiopian community here so he's able to still enjoy himself. LOL!!

They file applications and simply wander into Canada. No jobs. No prospects. Just wandering into the Canadian black hole of welfare payments and gov't checks.

Funny how Xul knows all about our EI and welfare payment system. Do you think he's dumb? What do you think he's going to be doing when he gets here?

Let's not insult everyones intelligence.

[kengs333]

Simple. You need an electoral college system like in the US.

That's why their political system is the best. It just works so well and is hard to exploit.

What? It's the absolute worst form of democracy out there! Hard to exploit? Yeah, I guess that's why every election seems to be frought with controversy, why elections have been proven to be rigged.

If you prefer the way things are done in America, feel free to go there for awhile. If you're so pissed about immigrants ruining politics in Canada, and you in turn feel that the American system is better, then how exactly are you any better???

[mikedavid00]

It only works fine if you want to maintain the status quo and deny the majority of Canadians representation in government.

Did you not read what Sheila Copps had to say?

Listen to what she's saying.

Ontario is NOT a homogeneous society. It's a balkan state.

You will have nothing but extremists in the parliment.

It does work, but ONLY for homogenous societies like Quebec or Alberta.

[M.Dancer]

I disagree.

(in technicalities, 100% of people most vote to be considered a democracy).

Ummm no.

If you have not lived in Canada for 10 years, you should not be able to vote.If you are under the age of retirement and not paying taxes, you should not be able to vote.

If you are collecting old age welfare, you get no vote.

So you aren't interested in having a democracy...how about an oligarchy then?

Oh God.. i'm listening to the CBC radio and they are discussing Thanks Giving.. and now this immigrant is calling in who I can barely understand.

Let's not insult everyones intelligence.

Fair's fair....half the time I read your posts I can barely understand you. What is your first language by the way?

[jennie]

Did you not read what Sheila Copps had to say?

Listen to what she's saying.

Ontario is NOT a homogeneous society. It's a balkan state.

You will have nothing but extremists in the parliment.

It does work, but ONLY for homogenous societies like Quebec or Alberta.

No you listen to what she is saying, because NOWHERE does she exaggerate to the point of saying "You will have nothing but extremists in parliament."

That is ridiculous and typical of your irrational extremism, md.

[mikedavid00]

What? It's the absolute worst form of democracy out there! Hard to exploit? Yeah, I guess that's why every election seems to be frought with controversy, why elections have been proven to be rigged.

If you prefer the way things are done in America, feel free to go there for awhile. If you're so pissed about immigrants ruining politics in Canada, and you in turn feel that the American system is better, then how exactly are you any better???

It gets disputed becuase the votes are so close.

The electoral college system implemented in Canada would stop parties like the Bloc Quebecois from occupying those numbers of seats in Canada. They would take up 0.8% of the house seats. Not 25%.

So dense grops of immigrants could never form parties and overtake our political system.

Sigh.. look. The Parlimentary system was meant to be used with honor and was meant for a homogenous society. It works under a certain context.

The American system is fool proof. It's very regionalized. It's extremely hard to exploit. Big Pharma, Big Tobacco can lobby all they want, but the vote always comes back to the people.

And the reason why I don't go to the US is because they have an immigration system. I am not needed in the US so Im not allowed in.

Only Canada just lets people wander in with no job.

[M.Dancer]

The electoral college system implemented in Canada would stop parties like the Bloc Quebecois from occupying those numbers of seats in Canada. They would take up 0.8% of the house seats. Not 25%.

You realize of course that the US electoral college works on a state by state basis....and where they have winner take all, if the bloc won quebec, they would get every electoral college vote from quebec.

And of course I know you realize that the Colleg system works well in the states becasue they don't elect a member to parliament, they elect the executive.

[mikedavid00]

You realize of course that the US electoral college works on a state by state basis....and where they have winner take all, if the bloc won quebec, they would get every electoral college vote from quebec.

And of course I know you realize that the Colleg system works well in the states becasue they don't elect a member to parliament, they elect the executive.

Yes.

We need to fix our political system as discussed in the past. It definately needs to go American.

In the old days, Tory would have been elected, had no discussion, and just start to fund religious schools a la Trudeau style.

The people want to have a say these days. They don't want a daddy. They want a manager and to vote on their own tax increases and spending priorities. You just gotta love the US and their political system. God bless em and all the power to them.

We need propositions to be tabled federally and locally on how we would like to live in our country.

Not have politicians decide this for us.

Shame on Tory.

[scribblet]

There aren't actually "many European countries" that have adopted MMP, and those that have have shown no signs of instability or "bogged down" governments as naysayers have claimed would result.

In Western Europe, 21 of 28 countries use proportional representation, including Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland. Germany, Bolivia and Venezuela have the mixed MMP.

[mikedavid00]

In Western Europe, 21 of 28 countries use proportional representation, including Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland. Germany, Bolivia and Venezuela have the mixed MMP.

And Canada has little to do with those countries.

Canada is not comprised of a homogenous society as those mentioned.

[guyser]

You should be requred to vote of fined.

Ahem.......I said AHEM.....

[kengs333]

In Western Europe, 21 of 28 countries use proportional representation, including Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland. Germany, Bolivia and Venezuela have the mixed MMP.

Right, and we're talking MMP, not PR systems in general. So what's your point?

[jbg]

SEE I TOLD YOU!

JBG AND ME TOLD YOU GUYS SO.

I JUST KNEW THIS WOULD BENEFIT THEM AND BANG ON I WAS RIGHT.

Thanks to JBG for having the honesty and courage to be unbiased, and well read as he always is.

Thank you. I always appreciate compliments, though I don't specificaly remember the post.

[jbg]

Simple. You need an electoral college system like in the US.

That's why their political system is the best. It just works so well and is hard to exploit.

The "grass isn't always greener on the other side". In general, the Electoral College system works well, but we've had at least five meltdowns that I can think of:

1. John Adams v. Thomas Jefferson - 1800;
   
2. John Quincy Adams v. Andrew Jackson v. Henry Clay v. ____ Pinckney - 1824;
   
3. Rutherford B. Hayes - Samuel Tilden (I think) - 1876;
   
4. Humphrey v. Nixon v. Wallace - 1968, and most famously;
   
5. Gore v. Bush - 2000
   

The 1800 debacle resulted in a Constitutional amendment resulting i na President and Vice President running for election separately, rather than the second-best getting the Vice Presidential job. 1826 was decried as a "corrupt bargain" where Henry Clay got the Secretary of State portfolio in exchange for throwing his Representatives (the election was tossed to the House) to Adams. 1876 was clinched when Hayes agreed to restore the Southern states to the Union without their making the previously required progress on civil rights for blacks. 1968 and 2000 gave us Presidents with limited popular support.

[jbg]

In Western Europe, 21 of 28 countries use proportional representation, including Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland. Germany, Bolivia and Venezuela have the mixed MMP.

Israel and Italy have proportional representation. The results border between comedic and farcical. It is why neither country can really get their economic policy act together. Both succeed despite horrid governments.

[scribblet]

Israel and Italy have proportional representation. The results border between comedic and farcical. It is why neither country can really get their economic policy act together. Both succeed despite horrid governments.

Right on !

[kengs333]

Israel and Italy have proportional representation. The results border between comedic and farcical. It is why neither country can really get their economic policy act together. Both succeed despite horrid governments.

Oh, please. These two countries are the examples that the fear-mongers always use as examples to support their views, but neither of these two countries have MMP.