Hundreds of rich pay no tax: Study ?

jennie · October 3, 2007

Lol!
You consider $250,000 wealthy elite?? an American would laugh at you.

That is the salary of the typical small business tax evader, not that of the wealthy elite. The wealthy DO pay more tax than anyone else. Especially in the US.

Wealth distribution in Canada ...

http://www.esnips.com/doc/629185b2-3bf1-40...ribution-Canada

This doesn't say anything about taxes paid or not, but it highlights the huge discrepancy between the highest and the rest of us. In truth, it is only 1/10th of the people in the top line who truly reign without paying taxes, and account for the strong upward motion: The really really richest get much richer much faster, and the rest of us work and pay taxes. Why am I feeling like part of a mindless mass? Have we bought in so foolishly that we would bring about our own demise? Sometimes I think that is the game they are playing with us.

mikedavid00 · October 3, 2007

Wealth distribution in Canada ...
http://www.esnips.com/doc/629185b2-3bf1-40...ribution-Canada

This doesn't say anything about taxes paid or not, but it highlights the huge discrepancy between the highest and the rest of us. In truth, it is only 1/10th of the people in the top line who truly reign without paying taxes, and account for the strong upward motion: The really really richest get much richer much faster, and the rest of us work and pay taxes. Why am I feeling like part of a mindless mass? Have we bought in so foolishly that we would bring about our own demise? Sometimes I think that is the game they are playing with us.

Canada lets in plenty of immigrants to saturate our job market so everyones salary goes down except for those who work for, or around the civil service.

That's our problem.

The rich benefit from the immigration. Everyone on this board knows it.

That's the MAIN reason I actually don't agree with our immigration policy: because it saturates our job market.

old_bold&cold · October 3, 2007

Canada lets in plenty of immigrants to saturate our job market so everyones salary goes down except for those who work for, or around the civil service.
That's our problem.

The rich benefit from the immigration. Everyone on this board knows it.

That's the MAIN reason I actually don't agree with our immigration policy: because it saturates our job market.

While I will agree with you on many of the things you have said in the post, I must though disagree with the implied immigrants keep salaries low. While at first glance this would be a reasonable assuption, but if you look closely, you will see a very high number of immigranst will save and start their own businesses. If you want to change the low paying jobs, all you need do is set out a certain sliding minimum wage. For instance. Tjose who graduate high school $12.00 per hour, those with College or post secondary education $20.00 per hour. Those with BA or University $30.00 per hour and so on. That way we could see the benefits of education for people. Those who have little skill and less then High school sould be paid say $9.00 per hour. That way we would have set the stage for all immigrants to at least try to educate themselves and in that very act they will become more Canadian and open to our way of life. It will also be an incentive to the young today to stay in school if they want to get ahead.

I am not against immigration but rather I would like to see that these same people show some willingness to learn and educate themselves, and that will be the start of them Canadianising their way of thinking as well.

mikedavid00 · October 3, 2007

you will see a very high number of immigranst will save and start their own businesses.

That is false.

Most modern immigrants are living in poverty or not even working.

Modern Immigrants do not come here and create employment for Canadians. I wish that were the case, but it's not.

baby billy · October 3, 2007

I also like the fact that the multi-millionairs in Canada also collect Canada pension benefits.........with great pride no less!

I've always said; if you're a low down greedy son of a bitch, you'll turn out one of two ways; in prison, or a mansion.

Edited October 3, 2007 by baby billy

old_bold&cold · October 4, 2007

That is false.
Most modern immigrants are living in poverty or not even working.

Modern Immigrants do not come here and create employment for Canadians. I wish that were the case, but it's not.

I do not agree with yoy that most modern immigrants stay on welfare etc.. That is not feasible and just not in the same thinking of yours that they will drive wages lower. If they do not work, how can wages be driven lower?

xul · October 4, 2007

.

So, you would see the fact represented here seems against your "old posts" in another issue of hatred. Even if without immigrants, some people may also hate each other. The only problem is who is the target they would hate? A wealthy, a poor, or a "system"?

Just as if there were no Jews in Germany, Hitler woud not become a charitarian. The only question is: Who would be his next victim?

jennie · October 4, 2007

So, you would see the fact represented here seems against your "old posts" in another issue of hatred. Even if without immigrants, some people may also hate each other. The only problem is who is the target they would hate? A wealthy, a poor, or a "system"?
Just as if there were no Jews in Germany, Hitler woud not become a charitarian. The only question is: Who would be his next victim?

Well said!!

xul · October 4, 2007

I think the essential divarication here is how to comprehend EI. Is it an insurance, or a welfare only for low income people?

Perhaps Canada government would redefine it if it was not defined clearly before.

mikedavid00 · October 4, 2007

I think the essential divarication here is how to comprehend EI. Is it an insurance, or a welfare only for low income people?
Perhaps Canada government would redefine it if it was not defined clearly before.

(lol.. funny how your not even in Canada yet and you know all about our EI and welfare system). Why not just be honest Xul.

How are you going to support youserlf when you get here.

You never want to answer that. What your plans are. Etc.

xul · October 4, 2007

(lol.. funny how your not even in Canada yet and you know all about our EI and welfare system). Why not just be honest Xul.
How are you going to support youserlf when you get here.

You never want to answer that. What your plans are. Etc.

If you go into Google and enter "EI Canada" you will find a lot of information about it.

There is a comic story of me when I first come here. I found a lot of people here talking about CPC so I wondered why there were so much people concerning about the Communist Party of China. But when I read these posts, I found they were not talking about that CPC. Then I enter the keywords "CPC Canada" in Google and found it is the Conservative Party of Canada.

Edited October 4, 2007 by xul

capricorn · October 4, 2007

If you go into Google and enter "EI Canada" you will find a lot of information about it.
There is a comic story of me when I first come here. I found a lot of people here talking about CPC so I wondered why there were so much people concerning about the Communist Party of China. But when I read these posts, I found they were not talking about that CPC. Then I enter the keywords "CPC Canada" in Google and found it is the Conservative Party of Canada.

If you google CPC, you'll find the fourth link is the Communist Party of Canada. Isn't the internet wonderful?

jennie · October 4, 2007

I think the essential divarication here is how to comprehend EI. Is it an insurance, or a welfare only for low income people?
Perhaps Canada government would redefine it if it was not defined clearly before.

EI is Employment insurance, paid out of your earnings and collected when you are unemployed. Everyone is entitled for a year who has paid in for a certain time. Welfare is for while you are waiting for EI, or after it runs out and you still can't find a job, or if you are a single parent of pre-school children or a teenager escaping an abusive home, etc.

I will be honest and share something I know and something I think:

- Some of these non-tax paying welfare/EI collecting families are business startups with perhaps large gross incomes but losses overall. If they can feed or clothe their family via their business, all the better.

- Some may continue beyond startup, and then it becomes chronic.

However, you can't tell whether it is traffic moving through the system well, or chronic, except over time.

capricorn · October 4, 2007

- Some may continue beyond startup, and then it becomes chronic.

Chronic, like people who work for 5 or 6 months for Revenue Canada then go on pogey for the rest of the year? I've known many.

mikedavid00 · October 4, 2007

Chronic, like people who work for 5 or 6 months for Revenue Canada then go on pogey for the rest of the year? I've known many.

A friend of mine in ottawa did that.

xul · October 4, 2007

How are you going to support youserlf when you get here.
You never want to answer that. What your plans are. Etc.

I guess there were some misunderstanding of my job. I said I'm an engineer worked in a China research institute so it seems you thought I was doing some kind of market research in a big company. But in china, research institute usually mean it is a desing and development department belonged to a high-tech company. I'm a mechnical engineer, I do the job that Canadian engineers do, designing and developing machinery, these skills can be widely used in any country. Canada immigrantion law requires immigrants' specialty fitting the occupation list of Human Resources and Skills Development Canada. Only a person's speciaty in the list he would apply immigration to Canada.

You ask me to tell you what job I will do in Canada today, it is ridiculous. Could I email each Canadian company and tell them:"Hi! I'm a Chinese and lives in China. I don't know which day which month which year CIC would give me a Canada visa. Could you employ me now? "

If you ask me what is my plan. I can tell you if I come Canada, I will try to get a licence of my specialty. Perhaps it needs one or two years and I also can use these time to improve my English. My English is not as good as my posts showed here. Most my post needs help of dictionary and I cannot express them as this level orally.

I admit it is a challenge to me to immigrate a foreign country especially I'm no longer a young. But I'm not a man who fears challenges. I suggest any Canadian would not worry the chanllenges from immigrants. They come here to play with your rules not their rules and use you language not their language. Why do you need to worry competing with them?

Edited October 4, 2007 by xul

geoffrey · October 4, 2007

I wouldn't blame the middle class for the weird exemptions in our tax system.

They hold the majority of the votes that pick the people that pick the policies. Apparently they like this sort of complexity.

Taxes exist in a political world and if you look at the historical record, you'll find alot of random factors that determined whether a tax or exemption exists or not. I'm almost inclined to believe that it will take a revolution - you know, French, Russian, American, Chinese type revolution - to change our tax system. Governments can only tinker, until an earthquake happens. (Markets cope with change much better. For example, the world price of oil has gone from about $10 a barrel to $80 a barrel in the past 10 years. Imagine if we relied on a government committee to decide such changes.)

I tend to agree.

Nevertheless, this is an Internet forum where posters can imagine an ideal world. Given the OP, it just seems to me that rich people shouldn't be getting free government money. If they do, something is seriously wrong with the way our system works.

Ideally, they shouldn't be getting free money. Ideally, no one would get any of anyone else's earnings. However, we all know the world is far from that.

I also like the fact that the multi-millionairs in Canada also collect Canada pension benefits.........with great pride no less!

What the hell? Do you not understand what CPP is? If I pay into a pension plan, I deserve to get my earnings back out.

You actually think the rich should subsidize everyone else retiring? Absurd.

If we were allowed to opt out of the plan, then I'd agree. But since everyone pays, everyone should benefit.

By the way, CPP is a terrible waste of your money. If I had the choice, I'd never put a dime into that. I can do much better investing my own buck thanks.

msj · October 4, 2007

If we were allowed to opt out of the plan, then I'd agree. But since everyone pays, everyone should benefit.
By the way, CPP is a terrible waste of your money. If I had the choice, I'd never put a dime into that. I can do much better investing my own buck thanks.

Not everyone pays into CPP.

People have a choice if they want to.

Incorporate a Canadian Controlled Private Corporation and run a business. Then pay out dividends rather than wages. You would not have to pay any CPP. However, you would be paying corporate tax and personal taxes on the dividends (assuming they were high enough to be taxable on your personal tax return).

Alternatively, set up a CCPC and set up a profit sharing plan (make sure it is set up absolutely legally). The payments will be deductible to the company but do not count as earnings for CPP purposes. A legal case just came out on this so it is possible that the Finance Department may shut it down in the future.

xul · October 4, 2007

EI is Employment insurance, paid out of your earnings and collected when you are unemployed. Everyone is entitled for a year who has paid in for a certain time. Welfare is for while you are waiting for EI, or after it runs out and you still can't find a job, or if you are a single parent of pre-school children or a teenager escaping an abusive home, etc.
I will be honest and share something I know and something I think:

- Some of these non-tax paying welfare/EI collecting families are business startups with perhaps large gross incomes but losses overall. If they can feed or clothe their family via their business, all the better.

- Some may continue beyond startup, and then it becomes chronic.

However, you can't tell whether it is traffic moving through the system well, or chronic, except over time.

Thank you for telling me about these.

I just meant if it was an insurance, a rich man or wealthy collecting money from it would not be immoral if he was qualified. But if its purpose was a kind of welfare or subsidy only for the poor people though its name sounds like an insurance, government must set some restriction to awoid any misunderstanding or misuse.

I'm not sure I have understood what you said correctly. It seems you meant some business owners who were the high income EI collectors. But I'm not sure whether could a bussiness owner also collect EI as an employee? And if a business gets a large income at startup but losses overall, its annual income can not reach 250,000.

But at all events, according to an article I read, the maximum that a person can gain from EI is only $400/week. It seems very few to a person who had ever gained $250,000/year. So I don't think there were a lot of people may give up his $250,000/year job for gain EI chronically. Perhaps there were some one who were laid off from $250,000 jobs and collected EI when they waited for a new jobs.

Usually a bussiness owner may use accountancy to avoid paying more tax by legal way. But welfare is a very small amount of money to a wealthy than tax, so if he colleted it by cheating, it would be unwise.

Pliny · October 4, 2007

Flat tax anyone?

Much better than the current "Marxist" system or perhaps more benevolently, the "Robin Hood" system, however, there should be no such thing as an income tax. If there is a need to redistribute wealth, that being the primary purpose of our income tax, then it would be just as easy to allow criminals to defraud people of their hard earned cash, as there is no shortage of imagination when it comes to relieving people of their wealth. So I would suggest, instead of a flat tax, legalize fraud. Now don't go and tell me that has already been done and someone with a great imagination has created a monopoly for themselves?

Pliny · October 4, 2007

Chronic, like people who work for 5 or 6 months for Revenue Canada then go on pogey for the rest of the year? I've known many.

Everyone who works and pays taxes works for Revenue Canada for 6 months of every year.

By the way, EI is not payable or collectible, if your income is from self-employment. So if you, or any family member, for that matter, works for a business owned by a family member, they do not have to pay EI and they cannot collect it.

Pliny · October 4, 2007

By the way, CPP is a terrible waste of your money. If I had the choice, I'd never put a dime into that. I can do much better investing my own buck thanks.

Inflation is the biggest problem with any longterm savings plan. When CPP was initiated you could live on a few thousand dollars per annum, it was a great scheme, but how could economists have predicted such a thing as inflation? Sigh!

old_bold&cold · October 4, 2007

People need to look at the whole issue here. If someone is making regularly $250,000.00 per year salary, he is also normally paying $110,000.00 per year in income tax. If he has other investments that lose some money, it is a deduction, but because of that deduction some one else made money and is taxed for it. When his investments make money it will increase his taxes. This person could not very well have losses every year, as he would eventually go broke. So if there is a year ot two where he does not pay tax, it is offset by the years where he must pay even more tax. In the years where he lost money, someone made more and had to pay more taxes. This whole thread is nothing but bitching by people because they do not make the money that the richer people do. But all in all the richer the person is the more they pay in taxes. For those who inheirited money they still must pay the tax on the interest earned every year. So if they inherit one hundred million they pay taxes on approx 5 million or 2.4 million per year. So yes they do pay many time in one year then the whiners pay, in all their life time. There are just soooo bad now aren't they :rolleyes:

jennie · October 4, 2007

People need to look at the whole issue here. If someone is making regularly $250,000.00 per year salary, he is also normally paying $110,000.00 per year in income tax. If he has other investments that lose some money, it is a deduction, but because of that deduction some one else made money and is taxed for it. When his investments make money it will increase his taxes. This person could not very well have losses every year, as he would eventually go broke. So if there is a year ot two where he does not pay tax, it is offset by the years where he must pay even more tax. In the years where he lost money, someone made more and had to pay more taxes. This whole thread is nothing but bitching by people because they do not make the money that the richer people do. But all in all the richer the person is the more they pay in taxes. For those who inheirited money they still must pay the tax on the interest earned every year. So if they inherit one hundred million they pay taxes on approx 5 million or 2.4 million per year. So yes they do pay many time in one year then the whiners pay, in all their life time. There are just soooo bad now aren't they

It's the ones in that tax bracket who pay NO taxes that we wonder about.

old_bold&cold · October 4, 2007

Jennie show me one person who is in that tax bracket that has never paid taxes. As I said earlier that this story was wrong because those who may have a year or two with no tax would then have years with huge tax payments. Most would pay more tax in a year then you pay in a life time. So show me just one who has never paid taxes period.