Conservatives Admit that Daycare Progam

[Moxie]

Why is it taxpayer's responsibility to pay for or subsidize childcare? Frankly if people want children they should be mature enough to KNOW they are expensive little buggers. People who can't afford children shouldn't be having them, they are not my responsibility. The adage that it takes a village to raise a child is nonsense.

[Drea]

Why is it taxpayer's responsibility to pay for or subsidize childcare? Frankly if people want children they should be mature enough to KNOW they are expensive little buggers. People who can't afford children shouldn't be having them, they are not my responsibility. The adage that it takes a village to raise a child is nonsense.

so it's safe to assume you are pro-choice then?

If people only had kids if and when they could afford them, there would be a whole lot less people on the planet.

[jdobbin]

Why is it taxpayer's responsibility to pay for or subsidize childcare? Frankly if people want children they should be mature enough to KNOW they are expensive little buggers. People who can't afford children shouldn't be having them, they are not my responsibility. The adage that it takes a village to raise a child is nonsense.

I guess you will be voting for a party other than the Tories as they have their tax deductions for families, a subsidy most certainly on the backs on taxpayers with no children.

Edited October 26, 2007 by jdobbin

[mikedavid00]

Why is it taxpayer's responsibility to pay for or subsidize childcare? Frankly if people want children they should be mature enough to KNOW they are expensive little buggers. People who can't afford children shouldn't be having them, they are not my responsibility. The adage that it takes a village to raise a child is nonsense.

Child care is a catch 22.

If you don't provide it, they will not work and we might spend more on welfare payments.

As far as getting people to make wise decisions, many people don't. Many people don't go through the bother of getting condoms and take chances. I don't think we'll be able to stop that.

So if someone wants a handout to put their kids in PRIVATE childcare (like in the US), then I'll have to support that so I don't have to pay more.

Basically, if you make minimum wage, and you want your kid in child care, you get $30 a day to spend how you please.

And guess what, just like in the US, you will all of a sudden see all these childcare providers pop up and demand will be met.

But In Canada we have the ongoing sickness of trying to play Daddy and running programs that we cannot manage.

Canada should not be in the childcare business. It should not even regulate childcare. You just get the money if your working and it's up the parents to put their kids where they want. No regulations.

Canada's gov't does not = childare business and subsidies.

Housing, Childcare, Healthcare - NO BUSINESS OF THE GOV'T.

[Melanie_]

Child care is a catch 22.

If you don't provide it, they will not work and we might spend more on welfare payments.

As far as getting people to make wise decisions, many people don't. Many people don't go through the bother of getting condoms and take chances. I don't think we'll be able to stop that.

So if someone wants a handout to put their kids in PRIVATE childcare (like in the US), then I'll have to support that so I don't have to pay more.

Basically, if you make minimum wage, and you want your kid in child care, you get $30 a day to spend how you please.

And guess what, just like in the US, you will all of a sudden see all these childcare providers pop up and demand will be met.

But In Canada we have the ongoing sickness of trying to play Daddy and running programs that we cannot manage.

Canada should not be in the childcare business. It should not even regulate childcare. You just get the money if your working and it's up the parents to put their kids where they want. No regulations.

Canada's gov't does not = childare business and subsidies.

Housing, Childcare, Healthcare - NO BUSINESS OF THE GOV'T.

I'd like a cite for the claim that the US government gives people making minimum wage $30/day to spend how they please on childcare. Are there any supporters of that here on MLW? Not me, not for Canada. Although I'm not sure how you support the idea of $30/day, then later state that the government should not be in the business of providing subsidies. A bit of a contradiction there.

As for regulations - these are children we are talking about. Basic regulations are that the child care provider pass a Criminal Records check, not be listed on the Child Abuse Registry, and have at minimum First Aid and CPR training. Ideally, some understanding of child development would also be neccessary, as well as child guidance - how you work with a group of 6 2 year olds is very different from being at home with one 2 year old. What is objectionable about that?

In case you missed my earlier post, the government is not expected to run the programs. They would simply transfer the money to the provinces, who would invest it in the existing infrastructure for child care. The programs themselves are independent, just like a restaurant is independent even though it gets inspected by the Health Department on a regular basis.

[jdobbin]

The latest on the daycare issue.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...ional/Politics/

The federal Conservatives were left without any viable strategy for creating much-needed child care after consultations across the country threw cold water on their plans to entice employers and non-profit groups to do the job with the promise of tax credits.

Fact-finding sessions conducted last year with businesses, child-care providers and others garnered a wide range of opinions about what the government should do to help working parents care for their young children.

But, as indicated in a summary prepared for Diane Finley, who was then the minister of human resources, "there were some messages that were consistent across all of the consultations." And most of them ran directly counter to what the Conservative government had proposed during the 2006 election campaign.

Results of the consultations released to The Globe and Mail under the federal Access to Information law show that most companies did not want to get into the child-care business.

An analysis of the possibility of getting Alberta employers to create child-care spots says: "Discussions with employers, businesses in Alberta, were mainly reflective of what we heard across Canada in terms of child care not being their line of business, shared concern that it would be too costly and complex for small business to consider."

As for the idea of tax credits, those performing the analysis said: "shareholders are skeptical that a tax credit will create an adequate incentive for employers to create new child care spaces and are concerned it unfairly favours large enterprises." Nor would tax credits work for non-profit organizations, they say.

The program has been a complete and utter failure.

[Fain]

Child Care? hire a babysitter

[jdobbin]

Child Care? hire a babysitter

I take it you are opposed to the Conservatives and their daycare program then?

[Fain]

I take it you are opposed to the Conservatives and their daycare program then?

Yes I am. And i voted for them too which is a bummer.

Did you know you can pay an adult child to take care of a child under 18 and write it off as a child care expense? Just a tidbit thrown out there.

Smart keen people can tackle parenting without the state's help

[jdobbin]

Yes I am. And i voted for them too which is a bummer.

Did you know you can pay an adult child to take care of a child under 18 and write it off as a child care expense? Just a tidbit thrown out there.

Smart keen people can tackle parenting without the state's help

Isn't the taxpayer credit part of the state's help?

[geoffrey]

Isn't the taxpayer credit part of the state's help?

Yup. A terrible theft of my money for other's personal choices too.

[Fain]

Isn't the taxpayer credit part of the state's help?

If it's too easy to answer then don't ask the question. You knew it already.

[Drea]

So let's do an example shall we?

A parent with a toddler grosses $1600 per month ($10 per hour at 40 hours per week).

Probably pays about 15% off the top so that leaves $1360 net income.

Out of that money they must pay $25-35 per day for childcare (20 days a month let's say) that works out to between $500 and $700 per month. (Let's go with the lower number shall we?)

$1360 less $500 equals $860 per month for rent, heating, groceries. Is this enough to live on without a provincial daycare subsidy?

Oh I forgot to add in Harper's $100 per toddler.... so that's $960 to live on. Oh yah, and we might as well add in the child tax benefit (we'll use the maximum) of $275.

So now this parent has a whopping $1235 which is to cover rent, hydro, groceries. Never mind telephone service, prescriptions, sight testing, a movie now and then...

How much is rent in your area of the country. A 2 bdrm in the Fraser Valley is at the very very least $650, in a scummy area. Can you all cover your groceries, hydro and all other expenses with $585?

Edited November 1, 2007 by Drea

[old_bold&cold]

But you forget that most of todays families have two working people and lets use the $10/hr for the second and now you have over $2300/ month and that will pay for all that need to be done and still have a decent apt. For those with one child and no partner we will have to add the $450.00 /month child support that the courts will impose so that again would brign the single mother to near $1800.00 per month, and yes that can cover things.

If people want they can find jobs that pay well over $10 per hr and try to make careers out of them. Just because some one starts off at low wages does not mean they stay at those same wages. If they do not have the education to get better or learn a trade then they will need to seek out night schooling to help them. I just do not think it is so bad the times we have, are way better then when I grew up, and they are getting even better every day.

If people can not find jobs where they are, Calgary and Edmonton are paying $17.00 per hour to stock store shelves. Or the service industry are paying $14.00 /hr plus tips for resturant wokers. They will even pay you to come there and work. That should be a big cure for many people who say they can not find a job.

[Drea]

But you forget that most of todays families have two working people and lets use the $10/hr for the second and now you have over $2300/ month and that will pay for all that need to be done and still have a decent apt.

Two people working? Delete the $275 child tax benefit. And more groceries to buy. For three of us I spend $150-$200 every Saturday (that's $600-$800/mo just to eat, do laundry, and wipe our butts).

When it was just my son and I, we ate alot of rice and alot of tuna. To this day he hates rice pudding (the only treat we could afford back then).

For those with one child and no partner we will have to add the $450.00 /month child support that the courts will impose so that again would brign the single mother to near $1800.00 per month, and yes that can cover things.

Reaaally? You know for sure that every single parent has $450 coming in from the absent parent? Not likely. My ex pays $100 per month. Some pay nothing at all.

If people want they can find jobs that pay well over $10 per hr and try to make careers out of them. Just because some one starts off at low wages does not mean they stay at those same wages. If they do not have the education to get better or learn a trade then they will need to seek out night schooling to help them. I just do not think it is so bad the times we have, are way better then when I grew up, and they are getting even better every day.

My sis been at the same job six years now... makes $11.13 per hour. And no, she is not a single parent. Just sayin'.... not all people get $17/hr....

If people can not find jobs where they are, Calgary and Edmonton are paying $17.00 per hour to stock store shelves. Or the service industry are paying $14.00 /hr plus tips for resturant wokers. They will even pay you to come there and work. That should be a big cure for many people who say they can not find a job.

Good luck finding care for a child when you work shiftwork... even if one has the money who the heck takes your child while you stock shelves from midnight to six am? Bring 'em to work? Belt 'em into the fork lift and fly at it? Will the restaurant allow the mom to bring her toddler to work 'cause she can't find care?

What people fail to realize is that it is cheaper for the gov't to pay for childcare for 6 years than it is to pay welfare for 18.

Childcare is an investment in the family. An investment that pays off. Unlike welfare which does nothing to help anyone do anything.

[mikedavid00]

I'd like a cite for the claim that the US government gives people making minimum wage $30/day to spend how they please on childcare.

From 2006 when I used to be more active in posting cites. I don't bother posting them these days because I've already done so in the past.

True. I was just mentioning that it's really big in the US. Almost each work building has a daycare in it. That sounds perfect to me because you can see the kids at lunch etc. The World Trade Center even had a daycare. Why don't we have there here in Canada? Ah yes.. the Canadian attitude is to not look after ourselves. Instead, we promote a refugee with known ties to terrorists and hope he gets $37 million of our taxes.

Take a look at how Idaho does it (I just randomly picked a US state):

"Idaho Child Care Program: The Department also provides child care assistance to low-income, working families through the Idaho Child Care Program (ICCP). ICCP is based on family income, and subsidizes child care payments on a sliding fee scale. Learn more about the program here."

Sample

Name of Parent: Jones

Name of Provider: Happy Days Day Care

Month: May

People in Household: 4

Monthly Income: $850

Child in Care: Judy

Judy's Child Care Amount for May: $250

Child in Care: James

James' Child Care Amount for May: $200

Total Child Care for May: $450

Total ICCP Payment: $400

Parent Co-Payment: $50

Also you can pick your own provider. Idaho will give you payments. They base how much money you get by this schedule. I like this system..

http://www.healthandwelfare.idaho.gov/Desk...version=Staging

They also have a daycare recognition program! Wow that's such good coverage! =)

http://idahostars.org/

Wow!

I also checked out Alabama and they'll give you almost $100 a week for a daycare spot of your choice! But that's only if you meet their sliding income scale like the above.

I feel that these are the best systems. It's unreal how strong the US social systems are.

I mean honestly Melenie, do you really thing our joke of a gov't is goign to properly run and fund a national day care system? Like seriously. We can't run an inquiry, we can't run a healtchare system, we can't settle a native claim, we can't even controll our own RCMP.

YOU HONEST THINK we're going to have some functioning national daycare for the world?? (becuase it wont be for Canadians, it will be for 40-50% immigrants who have never paid into the system).

Look if you have kids and work or go to school, I don't mind giving you $20-$30 a day to spend it no your own. Do as you like.

But what we do NOT need, is we do not need gov't supervision, gov't regulation, daycare certifications, daycare inspectors, daycare training, daycare food inspectors, daycare health and activity specialists, and as mentioned by the teachers union in 1995, we do not need a national daycare workers union which will destroy us. .. and oh yes. We don't need any ethnic daycares either.

Don't you see, we'll get stuck in burochracy and then suprise suprise, there will be waiting lists and by the time you get a daycare spot, the kids will be too old for daycare and we'll all be taxed to death paying for daycare workers to make $50,000 a year with full benefits.

Gov't in Canada has gotten WAY, WAY too big. The last thing we need is a new national boondongle or civil servants and new departments. Let the private industry open up spots and you can put your child where you choose.

Yes there is room for fraud and abuse, but that number pales in comparison to the amount a burochracy in Canada cost the average tax payer.

You want the money fine, but after that you're on your own. Don't look at the gov't to be in the dayrcare business.

[mikedavid00]

My sis been at the same job six years now... makes $11.13 per hour.

And this is the sole, core reason I am against immigration.

The reason those wages are so low is because of immigration and over saturation of our labor markets which prevents her from moving up or getting paid more for the same work.

This is the crux of my argument.

[jdobbin]

If it's too easy to answer then don't ask the question. You knew it already.

I was just curious as to why you think tax credits is not state help.

[ScottSA]

So let's do an example shall we?

A parent with a toddler grosses $1600 per month ($10 per hour at 40 hours per week).

Probably pays about 15% off the top so that leaves $1360 net income.

Out of that money they must pay $25-35 per day for childcare (20 days a month let's say) that works out to between $500 and $700 per month. (Let's go with the lower number shall we?)

$1360 less $500 equals $860 per month for rent, heating, groceries. Is this enough to live on without a provincial daycare subsidy?

Oh I forgot to add in Harper's $100 per toddler.... so that's $960 to live on. Oh yah, and we might as well add in the child tax benefit (we'll use the maximum) of $275.

So now this parent has a whopping $1235 which is to cover rent, hydro, groceries. Never mind telephone service, prescriptions, sight testing, a movie now and then...

How much is rent in your area of the country. A 2 bdrm in the Fraser Valley is at the very very least $650, in a scummy area. Can you all cover your groceries, hydro and all other expenses with $585?

Get married.

[Drea]

Get married.

ahhaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! No kidding eh? Is that your solution?

[ScottSA]

ahhaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! No kidding eh? Is that your solution?

Either that or stop whining. My solution certainly doesn't entail looking to daddy government to replace daddy, if that's what you're thinking.

[Drea]

Either that or stop whining. My solution certainly doesn't entail looking to daddy government to replace daddy, if that's what you're thinking.

Maybe you got sumpthin there Scott.

...marry some old s.o.b. and get a divorce as soon as you're ready to strike out on yer own. Good idea!

Why the heck didn't I think of that way back when I was a single mom? Geez I could be rrrrich by now. Instead of working I could be sitting at home eating bon bons while hubby worked. OMG... again... I so wish I would've thought to take advantage of some poor sap... imagine how far ahead I'd be by now... instead of pulling in my OWN coin, I could've lived off someone else. Why didn't someone tell me? LOL

What an idiotic solution. And you claim to be an advocate for men's rights? What the heck is good about doing what you have suggested? Pffft. What a lame solution.

[old_bold&cold]

Drea, the $450.00 / month child support is a figure that most lawyers will tell you is the average child support for a single child. If you get less then that from your child's father, it would have to be a very low and barely able to support himself let alone a child, to be $110.00 per month. But if that is where you sought to have have a child from, then so be it. Many people have tied their kite strings to rocks in the past, and will again in the future. I live in a rural area where there are some really low wages and I have a friend that works on a farm and clears about $1,000.oo per month, but he has free room and board on the farm. He has been ordered to pay $450.00 / month for his child, by the courts.

As for getting government help goes, I suppose that many can get some help, but yes it would be, easier to get help from Churches and other social groups. They have many places where Daycare can be provided free of charge. Also I am sure they can arrange to meet yout work schedule if need be. The government is just one place to get help, there are many others that will give a hand without a second thought.

As for your grocery bills go, you seem to spend more per month then both my wife and I do on groceries. We spend about $600.00 per month and we eat steak and chicken and all sorts of treats and stuff. Even when we had our 13 yr old nephew with us we did not spend as much as you said, and he did eat like a horse. But food to me is never where one should cut costs, but rather should only be a last resort.

As I said though, if people can not make ends meet, they should consider the move to places like Alberta where the money is way more and you can make a better then living wage for doing the smallest of jobs. If you had any skills, then Alberta is still by far the best paying place. It would seem that it would not be brainer, if you feel you can not make a living where you are, to move to where you can make a good life for yourself and child.

In todays lifestyles there really is no reason to think that a person is so badly in need that they can not make it even with normal assitance from the government.

[Drea]

In other words... all you single moms -- get out there and find yourselves a daddy. The manly-men on this forum say it's the right thing to do!

Doesn't matter if you love him or not, doesn't matter if he's good for the children or not, doesn't matter that you gag when you look at him. None of these things matter -- all that matters is that he has money and YOU don't have to work; you can stay home and look after the children. That's all that matters. Puke later, for now, while your children are young, suck it up; after all you were irresponsible enough to get pregnant in the first place... so you should suffer.

/sarcasm

All I can say is that it is a very good thing that our provinces already have a daycare subsidy programs.

[Fain]

I was just curious as to why you think tax credits is not state help.

I don't think you were. And i never said tax credits weren't state help.