OPP finally act

[AngusThermopyle]

I agree, there is such a thing as driving while black. I'm talking about cases such as the one where the guy killed a three year old girl, was convicted and his mother promptly started screaming racism. I believe some church and community leaders were chiming in on that one as well.

That brings up the whole issue of profiling. It can be a usefull tool, it's also understandable how law abiding people would feel victimized by the process. This raises the question of right and wrong. Is it right to use this because it can be effective, or is it wrong because it makes some decent people feel marginalized? I personally don't have the answer to those questions. I do know that I have mixed feelings about it though.

[Posit]

What you say may have some truth to it. Could you explain how exactly he is fudgeing the numbers? I mean, just saying he is doesn't really clarify the matter.

This thread however is about arrests being made, that really doesn't constitute racism. We've seen the black community make such claims many times and those claims are dismissed generally as a feeble form of "hail Mary pass" in order to save face and reputation. As well, these claims are usually made to silence opposition who point out unsavory facts about those in question.

If you go back on a couple of posts, you'll see kens333 is including native people living in Brantford plus natives living at Six Nations in making a case for "natives are more violent than us" arguement. If this was a comparison of communities, then native people living in Brantford, or any any other community used for comparison would be included in the community statistics thereby raising the Brantford numbers and simultaneously lowering the Six Nations ones. It is fudgery clear and simple.

The to top it all off his statistics are incomplete. If you are going to do this type of analysis then you have to include all crimes - including white collar crimes, murders, molestations and rapes which tend to populate mainstream communities and assaults, and theft type crimes tend to prefer smaller communities and poor neighbourhoods.

The real numbers are out there and kens33 is either too lazy or deliberately avoiding posting true comparatives.

What DOES constitute racism is the deliberate attempt to show that native people are inferior or more prone to crime than non-natives.

[AngusThermopyle]

Thank you, I see your point. You're saying that he is singling out a group of people by racial type rather than community location. Thats interesting, it falls right into line with what I said about profiling. So in fact rather than state a community is more prone to crime by per capita he should have said a group of people is more prone to crime on a per capita base.

That would lead directly into the profiling thing and the quandries that arrive from it. On the other hand if a group of people are committing more crime per capita than another should that salient fact be ignored? The whole subject is somewhat of a Pandora's box wouldn't you agree?

[jennie]

If you go back on a couple of posts, you'll see kens333 is including native people living in Brantford plus natives living at Six Nations in making a case for "natives are more violent than us" arguement. If this was a comparison of communities, then native people living in Brantford, or any any other community used for comparison would be included in the community statistics thereby raising the Brantford numbers and simultaneously lowering the Six Nations ones. It is fudgery clear and simple.

The to top it all off his statistics are incomplete. If you are going to do this type of analysis then you have to include all crimes - including white collar crimes, murders, molestations and rapes which tend to populate mainstream communities and assaults, and theft type crimes tend to prefer smaller communities and poor neighbourhoods.

The real numbers are out there and kens33 is either too lazy or deliberately avoiding posting true comparatives.

What DOES constitute racism is the deliberate attempt to show that native people are inferior or more prone to crime than non-natives.

Agreed.

Also, the issue is that arrests and charges may reflect nothing about the community but rather about the police's tendency to arrest and charge people of certain races more than others. In the case of aboriginal people, there is also the very serious issue that many more of them die in custody that whites or blacks or any other community.

Like the poor person left in an alley by police recently. I have read he was so drunk he could not stand up. I have also read that he was becoming more disabled all the time, his feet and legs, and often was not able to walk. In other words, he may have been drunk, but his inability to stand up was due to disability (possibly diabetes damage).

When people with disabilities or mental illness, different races or languages, are treated like criminals and left to die or murdered with tasers, we have to seriously question what kind of society we are.

Seriously. Canada is a sicko, imo.

[jbg]

That brings up the whole issue of profiling. It can be a usefull tool, it's also understandable how law abiding people would feel victimized by the process.

I don't disbelieve in profiling. It can be used in a non-intrusive way. For example, if a group of Muslims are getting on a plane, and have no luggage, I see nothing wrong with asking them what business they're on. If they answer fast and credibly, great. If not, explore further.

In other words, I see no reason to bother 75 Jewish grandmothers from Forest Hill. I do see reasons to bother people who are milling around and have no obvious business.

[AngusThermopyle]

Seriously. Canada is a sicko, imo.

I'm curious, if this is how you truly feel then why do you choose to live here? From all I've seen you post it appears that you despise Canada and Canadians. I know that if I felt that way I would move to a place that would suit my ideals far more than the disgusting place in which I lived.

Further to that it would appear your desire is to reclaim all of Canada and turn it over to Natives. That would mean you would be their tenant, is this what you want? I've served my country and always had a job and paid taxes. I have no desire to pay rent to a group of people of whom a great many have not contributed even one tenth as much. That would amount to making an entire population subservient to a select group. Do you not see the hypocrasy inherent in such a view?

[jennie]

I'm curious, if this is how you truly feel then why do you choose to live here? From all I've seen you post it appears that you despise Canada and Canadians. I know that if I felt that way I would move to a place that would suit my ideals far more than the disgusting place in which I lived.

Further to that it would appear your desire is to reclaim all of Canada and turn it over to Natives. That would mean you would be their tenant, is this what you want? I've served my country and always had a job and paid taxes. I have no desire to pay rent to a group of people of whom a great many have not contributed even one tenth as much. That would amount to making an entire population subservient to a select group. Do you not see the hypocrasy inherent in such a view?

Do you ever get distressed about someone close to you?

That is how I feel.

I am as Canadian as they come.

I have learned we have a lot of nasty history to expose and deal with effectively, is all.

Things under our Canadian carpet are smelling pretty bad.

I have no Canadian pride left, no.

I am working toward making it a country to be proud of, as it never has been.

For starters ... we are a country of THREE founding peoples, and it is time to acknowledge, respect and repay the third.

[AngusThermopyle]

I am working toward making it a country to be proud of, as it never has been.

Well I wish you the best of luck with your quest. I dont think your current technique will win you too many converts though.

[Posit]

Thank you, I see your point. You're saying that he is singling out a group of people by racial type rather than community location. Thats interesting, it falls right into line with what I said about profiling. So in fact rather than state a community is more prone to crime by per capita he should have said a group of people is more prone to crime on a per capita base.

That would lead directly into the profiling thing and the quandries that arrive from it. On the other hand if a group of people are committing more crime per capita than another should that salient fact be ignored? The whole subject is somewhat of a Pandora's box wouldn't you agree?

It would be more accurate to profile using income as a basis. Using race is lame in that the colour of one's skin has nothing to do with the rate of crime. Certain communities however do have problems and most of them are related to income status. Poverty breeds hopelessness and someone with no hope has nothing to lose in committing crimes. On the flip side the upper income tend to do more frauds, and white collar because in the realm of the corporate world they believe they are immune from the law. And really, lawyers, real estate agents and life insurance salesman all kind of fit the profile of con artists, anyway. So I guess the MBAs and LLBs are all in good company.

[jennie]

Well I wish you the best of luck with your quest. I dont think your current technique will win you too many converts though.

I am not looking for 'converts'.

I am blowing up people's illusions. A little TRUTH medicine.

However, there is little point on this board as it is a protected haven for white supremacists and racism. Totally useless human beings, imo.

Posit, I wish you well.

Personally I think this board is a losing proposition.

Why waste time with these boneheaded arseholes! They have no interest in learning.

They are racist predators ... only interested in victimizing.

Too bad they gave up on their white sheets, because they were more easily identifiable back then.

Edited November 23, 2007 by jennie

[Wild Bill]

It would be more accurate to profile using income as a basis. Using race is lame in that the colour of one's skin has nothing to do with the rate of crime. Certain communities however do have problems and most of them are related to income status. Poverty breeds hopelessness and someone with no hope has nothing to lose in committing crimes.

Don't you think that statement is a bit patronizing? As I read it, you're saying lower income people are prone to becoming criminals.

I'm not that rich myself and I also know many people of very low incomes who are very honest and law abiding. They would be very offended by your statement.

Are you saying that only those below the poverty line should be suspects?

As for poverty breeding hopelessness, that could be a whole thread in itself. I would think that poverty would only breed such if there was no hope of escaping it! As long as we have a society that allows mobility between economic classes then there would be hope. If the opportunity for education and a good job is there then why should starting out poor be hopeless?

Now, if you start out being branded as a likely criminal simply because you come from a poor family then I could see why you could feel like doors were being slammed in your face!

Perhaps you should think about the ramifications of your remark.

[Wild Bill]

I am not looking for 'converts'.

I am blowing up people's illusions. A little TRUTH medicine.

However, there is little point on this board as it is a protected haven for white supremacists and racism. Totally useless human beings, imo.

Posit, I wish you well.

Personally I think this board is a losing proposition.

Why waste time with these boneheaded arseholes! They have no interest in learning.

They are racist predators ... only interested in victimizing.

Too bad they gave up on their white sheets, because they were more easily identifiable back then.

Once again, if I don't think you have a convincing argument then I must be a racist and/or stupid. Do you have any idea how arrogant that sounds?

So far you have not blown up any of my illusions because I find all your arguments LAME! You throw something out as some kind of gospel and if someone won't swallow it you call him nasty names!

I think you are confusing passion with truth. You seem to feel that if you thunder all the louder, care more and hate the opposition harder then that will make you correct in your beliefs.

That is not reason. That is faith, which is believing without reason or evidence. Debate degrades into religious argument, which can never be resolved because someone with faith will never change their mind for reason or new found facts.

Must be nice to have a monopoly on reason and truth...

Edited November 23, 2007 by Wild Bill

[jennie]

Once again, if I don't think you have a convincing argument then I must be a racist and/or stupid. Do you have any idea how arrogant that sounds?

So far you have not blown up any of my illusions because I find all your arguments LAME! You throw something out as some kind of gospel and if someone won't swallow it you call him nasty names!

I think you are confusing passion with truth. You seem to feel that if you thunder all the louder, care more and hate the opposition harder then that will make you correct in your beliefs.

That is not reason. That is faith, which is believing without reason or evidence. Debate degrades into religious argument, which can never be resolved because someone with faith will never change their mind for reason or new found facts.

Must be nice to have a monopoly on reason and truth...

A little truth for you.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-66...h&plindex=0

[kengs333]

Sure they do...kens333 has not only been fudging the numbers, but also history. And he is specifically targeting native people, not comparisons between communities - see his citations about non-SN residents included in his fudges.

I have neither fudged numbers or history. You are the one who has repeatedly claimed that the Five/Six Nations Iroquois have always occupied the Grand Reiver valley contrary to all historical and archeological data; have denied the sheer murderous behavior Five Nations displayed to the Huron, Petun, and Neutral Indians during the mid-1600s; totally fabricated the relationship between the Ojibway and Five Nations during the 18th century.

The statistics I used were provided by the Six Nations police service; it constitutes crimes that occured on Six Nations. What I did was compared the numbers between Six Nations and 11 Division in Peel. The numbers show that there is a much higher rate of crime per capita on Six Nations.

[kengs333]

The to top it all off his statistics are incomplete. If you are going to do this type of analysis then you have to include all crimes - including white collar crimes, murders, molestations and rapes which tend to populate mainstream communities and assaults, and theft type crimes tend to prefer smaller communities and poor neighbourhoods.

The problem is that the manner in which 11 Division Peel and Six Nations categorize their crime statistics differs somewhat, so I used TOTAL assaults which include rapes, for instance. If I recall correctly, there were 19 reported rapes on Six Nations, about 100 in 11 Division Peel. Care to do the math? Moreover, if you believe the statistics that feminists churn; what's the rate of reporting rapes? One for every ten that occur?

Name similar sized community in southern Ontario that has its own police and I would be happy to look at the number. I searched around for a bit, but I don't think that there are going to be stats available on line for a district of ten thousand because they all fall within a larger police jurisdiction.

[jennie]

I have neither fudged numbers or history. You are the one who has repeatedly claimed that the Five/Six Nations Iroquois have always occupied the Grand Reiver valley contrary to all historical and archeological data; have denied the sheer murderous behavior Five Nations displayed to the Huron, Petun, and Neutral Indians during the mid-1600s; totally fabricated the relationship between the Ojibway and Five Nations during the 18th century.

The statistics I used were provided by the Six Nations police service; it constitutes crimes that occured on Six Nations. What I did was compared the numbers between Six Nations and 11 Division in Peel. The numbers show that there is a much higher rate of crime per capita on Six Nations.

That's the euro-myth, created to pretend we weren't committing genocide.

The Hurons, etc were already decimated by smallpox. 20,00 of 30,000 already dead. All of the communities were consolidating because they all experienced similar death rates ... after the blankets were distributed.

They were also attempting to get the land back that had been usurped by the Jesuits ... the Catholic church. They burned churches from Ohsweken to Midland, and yes they attacked the aboriginal 'converts' too, because that is who the Jesuits were using as dupes to steal the land.

You see, the purpose of the missionaries, Catholic and Protestant, but the Jesuits were the first, was to kill-or-convert the Indigenous people and steal the land "for god and the king" or some such crap.

It was Hurons who asked for help from the Haudenosaunee, their Iroquois relatives.

The Hurons split along clan lines, and two clans are now Haudenosuanee (Six Nations).

Get your blinders off.

You don't seriously believe that euro-crap they fed us do you?

As for crime ... find a comparable community of similar socio-economic characteristics, please - eg, employment rates.

Edited November 23, 2007 by jennie

[Posit]

I have neither fudged numbers or history. You are the one who has repeatedly claimed that the Five/Six Nations Iroquois have always occupied the Grand Reiver valley contrary to all historical and archeological data; have denied the sheer murderous behavior Five Nations displayed to the Huron, Petun, and Neutral Indians during the mid-1600s; totally fabricated the relationship between the Ojibway and Five Nations during the 18th century.

The statistics I used were provided by the Six Nations police service; it constitutes crimes that occured on Six Nations. What I did was compared the numbers between Six Nations and 11 Division in Peel. The numbers show that there is a much higher rate of crime per capita on Six Nations.

Bullsh*

You need to get an education and stop believing in myths. I have offered the proof of the occupations, and not only history BUT the archaeology of the north shore PROVES the Confederacy have been here, long before my ancestors (since yours are recent immigrants) arrived here. Not only that but the Jesuit Relations - the most accurate post contact history of the north shore - confirms they were here when they began arriving in the 16th century.

Why not pick another municipality, like Thompson, Manitoba and compare crime rates. Why Peel? Ya, because Peel has a low crime rate to any other municipality of a similar size. You are not honest about your comparisons and that kind of dishonesty was what Jesus condemned when He was alive. However, given the ignorance and the vitriol of most Christians, I would say that would make you typical among them....although the bigoted superiority shtick is something that only a certain number of Lutherans and Baptist seem to carry as a value added extra.

[kengs333]

Okay, I'm NOT responding to anyone here, I just have to make it clear that prior to being nearly exterminated by the Five Nations, the Hurons were forced into the Midlands region because of attempts by the Five Nations to increase their territory along the north shore of Lake Ontario.

The Five Nations and the Huron may have been related, and may have traded, but they were two quite distinct groups, and like all of the different Indian groups in the region, they were often at war with one another.

The Huron may have been affected to some extent by the accidental introduction of diseases originating from Europe and Asia, but that can by no means be considered genocide. The Jesuits never provided the Huron with infected blankets. There is only one known instance of this happening, and this occured much later and was done by the British and not against the Huron.

[jennie]

Okay, I'm NOT responding to anyone here, I just have to make it clear that prior to being nearly exterminated by the Five Nations, the Hurons were forced into the Midlands region because of attempts by the Five Nations to increase their territory along the north shore of Lake Ontario.

The Five Nations and the Huron may have been related, and may have traded, but they were two quite distinct groups, and like all of the different Indian groups in the region, they were often at war with one another.

The Huron may have been affected to some extent by the accidental introduction of diseases originating from Europe and Asia, but that can by no means be considered genocide. The Jesuits never provided the Huron with infected blankets. There is only one known instance of this happening, and this occured much later and was done by the British and not against the Huron.

EURO-MYTH CRAPOLA!!

"KNOWN" by whom?

People know. They just weren't 'euro' ... so their stories didn't make the history books.

Again I ask:

You don't really believe that euro-crap genocide cover-up shyte that passes for Canadian history, do you?

Give it a rest ken. No one is that naive.

[kengs333]

Bullsh*

You need to get an education and stop believing in myths. I have offered the proof of the occupations, and not only history BUT the archaeology of the north shore PROVES the Confederacy have been here, long before my ancestors (since yours are recent immigrants) arrived here. Not only that but the Jesuit Relations - the most accurate post contact history of the north shore - confirms they were here when they began arriving in the 16th century.

Why not pick another municipality, like Thompson, Manitoba and compare crime rates. Why Peel? Ya, because Peel has a low crime rate to any other municipality of a similar size. You are not honest about your comparisons and that kind of dishonesty was what Jesus condemned when He was alive. However, given the ignorance and the vitriol of most Christians, I would say that would make you typical among them....although the bigoted superiority shtick is something that only a certain number of Lutherans and Baptist seem to carry as a value added extra.

I looked around at a few more rural regions but none had statistics and then randomly chose Peel and 11 Division. I thought it would be best to find statistics from southern Ontario.

Sorry, but Jesus never condemned, and I think in truth he would have been very much dismayed by your behaviour, as well. If you ever care to read the Gospels, Jesus had some very choice things to say about sinners and people commit themselves to evil. Many people on Six Nations are not Christians; they adhere to--if at all--to a religion that is directly contrary to the teachings of Christ. They deny the existence of God, do not accept Jesus as their saviour, and, like you, express hostile, negative, and falacious opinions about Christians. According to the Bible, that's simply not good. And as a Christian, I abide by the teachings of Christ--there's no point in being a Christian if I didn't, because there is no point in being a Christian in name only because being so is no better than not being a Christian at all.

[kengs333]

Again, I'm NOT responding to anyone, but we need to be quite clear about historical evidence. Nothing that we know about the past is complete. Even in our modern world with all the means by which we can gather and compile information can we ever really derive a truly accurate picture of anything. But whatever the case, we have to work with what we have, and the written records that we have were produced by Europeans. Why? Because Indians could neither read nor write--until some were taught. Indians such as George Copway have also left us with some records. But in the end we have what we have. But now people are claiming that the true history exists--but where is this? Why hasn't it been written down and recorded, and why is the supposed existence of this "true history" only coming to light 200 or 300 years after the fact when the facts they present are conveniently advantageous to the people asserting these claims???

[Posit]

Okay, I'm NOT responding to anyone here, I just have to make it clear that prior to being nearly exterminated by the Five Nations, the Hurons were forced into the Midlands region because of attempts by the Five Nations to increase their territory along the north shore of Lake Ontario.

The Five Nations and the Huron may have been related, and may have traded, but they were two quite distinct groups, and like all of the different Indian groups in the region, they were often at war with one another.

The Huron may have been affected to some extent by the accidental introduction of diseases originating from Europe and Asia, but that can by no means be considered genocide. The Jesuits never provided the Huron with infected blankets. There is only one known instance of this happening, and this occured much later and was done by the British and not against the Huron.

Wrong! Still perpetuating myths I see....

The Wendat always occupied the Bruce - Midland area. The Huron WERE Confederacy Iroquois living on the north shore. Lithics and ceramics found on pre-contact villages excavated all along the north shore and dated to the 11 to the 15th centruies, confirm it. Huron was a name the Jesuits gave to those peoples, not knowing either the language or the affiliations when they came here. They merely looked down the St Lawrence and declared that those to the north were Huron and those to the south were Iroquois.

There were never any "wars" with Huron or the Wendat. There were the occassion "spats" with the Wendat and the North Superior Ojibwa over hunting territory, but nothing of any proportion. Those remaining Christianized Wendat (after disease nearly wiped them all out) moved to Wendake with the French. Those non-Christian (of which there were many) were adopted into the north shore communities.

The Jesuits brought disease on their bodies and in their lungs and it was the French who used small pox infected blankets to try to weaken the Iroquois strong hold in the north shore region. By occupying the north shore (and villages north to the Trent River, east to Montreal and south west to Niagara and the Grand River, the Iroquois controlled the access to the interior, being the chief traders. In fact these villages along the lake shore contained copper from the north superior area and ivory that could only have come from the high Arctic. As well there were numerous trade items that came from south America as well - a strong indication that the oral history of the Iroquois trading the entire continent, are accurate.

What you are quoting is elementary grade myths contained in texts that have long been pulled from even the most conservative school boards. They have been replaced with more modern texts that while still containing dated information, have more proof than myths built in. Perhaps you should go back to elementary school and see if you can upgrade your history education. As it stands you are living in white sheet territory that can either be considered blissful ignorance, or deliberate omission that is common among white supremacist types.

[Posit]

Again, I'm NOT responding to anyone, but we need to be quite clear about historical evidence.

Then I suggest that you stop talking. You haven't a clue amateur....

[Drea]

History is written by the victor.

Posit, Jennie... most of us (me included) don't know anything about our real history. We learned from books written by the British for the most part. Would they have even had a clue that oral history was viable? I doubt it. There is much we do not know, much that has been/is kept from us.

Funny thing is... those very people who so staunchly believe in the oral history of Jesus (written down hundreds of years after his death) as the literal truth have a difficult time believing that natives can have an accurate and true oral history.

I am not knowledgeable about the issues back east but I am aware that portions of the Cariboo (where I grew up) have been settled.

The natives have been there running the place the whole time anyway -- Bella Coola, Anaham Lake, the Chilcoot, etc.

Edited November 23, 2007 by Drea

[jennie]

History is written by the victor.

Posit, Jennie... most of us (me included) don't know anything about our real history. We learned from books written by the British for the most part. Would they have even had a clue that oral history was viable? I doubt it. There is much we do not know, much that has been/is kept from us.

Funny thing is... those very people who so staunchly believe in the oral history of Jesus (written down hundreds of years after his death) as the literal truth have a difficult time believing that natives can have an accurate and true oral history.

I am not knowledgeable about the issues back east but I am aware that portions of the Cariboo (where I grew up) have been settled.

The natives have been there running the place the whole time anyway -- Bella Coola, Anaham Lake, the Chilcoot, etc.

History can be rewritten, if we listen and ... yes ... record, as is our custom.

It is happening.

The history of the Iroquois Nations here in Ontario ... is presented in the tone of the decimation of the Huron (Iroquois) by the Six Nations (Iroquois).

It is a key historical pivot, intentionally twisted by politics and religion ... written as history ... into a wedge among all peoples ... settlers ... Haudenosaunee/Six Nations ... other Iroquois Nations (Huron, Neutral, Petun, ... others dispersed), Ojibwa/Anishnabeg...

The Canadian fed myth is that Six Nations are aggressors against their own people, bluntly put. I grew up with that myth, in the land of the "Hurons" who weren't there anymore. It was always told as "supposedly" this is what happened ... "supposedly" meaning 'according to the government'. ("shh" ... the things that we weren't told ... right. )

The 'Hurons' (Fr - savages) are the Wendat (Wyandotte in the states, I believe).

I know the Haudenosaunee Six Nations people, and one of their Elders is Wendat.

I know who the aggressors were, and it was not the Indigenous Nations.

The Hurons, etc were already decimated by smallpox. 20,00 of 30,000 already dead. All of the communities were consolidating because they all experienced similar death rates ... after the blankets were distributed. ("Records" ... phooey ... ask an Elder)

They were also attempting to get the land back that had been usurped by the Jesuits ... the Catholic church. They burned churches from Ohsweken to Midland, and yes they attacked the aboriginal 'converts' too, because that is who the Jesuits were using as dupes to steal the land.

You see, the purpose of the missionaries, Catholic and Protestant but the Jesuits were the first, was to kill-or-convert the Indigenous people and steal the land "for god and the queenking" or some such crap.

It was (Hurons) Wendat who asked for help from the Haudenosaunee, their Iroquois relatives: The remaining Hurons dispersed along clan lines, and two clans are now Haudenosuanee (Six Nations).

I also know that thousands of Wendat people have gathered near my childhood beaches, on sacred ground.

They are still here.

Thanks for the opportunity to set the record straight. Thousands ... millions ... of Canadian schoolchildren and former schoolchildren need to know this truth.