Caledonia

[noahbody]

The "wiping out the Hurons, Neutrals and Tobacco" story is an invention by the British to justify their stealing lands that didn't ever belong to them.

So why do you suppose the French nicknamed them the 'Neutral Nation'? Doesn't that suggest the nations were not at peace? Or are you suggesting the French were in on the conspiracy with their British friends?

[jennie]

I would just add to that, settled areas aside, Ontario continues to illegally occupy Six Nations land, even referring to it as 'Crown Land'.

In fact, Ontario continues to develop and use Six Nations land without consent, evading the law according to the Supreme Court.

[jennie]

So why do you suppose the French nicknamed them the 'Neutral Nation'? Doesn't that suggest the nations were not at peace? Or are you suggesting the French were in on the conspiracy with their British friends?

I posted an account of this further up the thread, fyi.

[kengs333]

So why do you suppose the French nicknamed them the 'Neutral Nation'? Doesn't that suggest the nations were not at peace? Or are you suggesting the French were in on the conspiracy with their British friends?

The Neutrals were neutral in the sense that they stayed out of the fighting between the Huron and the Iroquois, but themselves were at war with Indians in southern Michigan. At one point they apparently staged an attack in which they killed approximately 800 people, took numerous prisoners, some of whom the ended up torturing to death. In the end, the Iroquois came and did to the Neutrals what had been done to the Huron. They did so because they wanted access to the land so that they could improve their position in relation to trade with the British.

[Riverwind]

In fact, Ontario continues to develop and use Six Nations land without consent, evading the law according to the Supreme Court.

The land was surrendered according to government documents. If Six Nations disputes those documents then it must go to court. The government has no obligation to consult until a court rules in Six Nation's favour. Edited September 18, 2007 by Riverwind

[jennie]

The land was surrendered according to government documents. If Six Nations disputes those documents then it must go to court. The government has no obligation to consult until a court rules in Six Nation's favour.

Don't play naive, riv.

The feds prefer the alternative of 'negotiating' land claims, where the gov has control of the outcome, being both defendant and judge. They are negotiating now. The government will be producing its evidence of surrender in the next couple of weeks, after six months of research. It wouldn't take them six months just to pull out a copy of the surrender, if indeed it was valid.

You seem to be confusing 'duty to consult' about land uses with 'obligation to negotiate' land claims. These are separate issues.

It is also not clear to me that you understand the processes taking place in regard to the Six Nations matter, since you don't seem aware that they are in negotiations with the federal government for land claims.

[Posit]

The land was surrendered according to government documents. If Six Nations disputes those documents then it must go to court. The government has no obligation to consult until a court rules in Six Nation's favour.

Court is not a place where two sovereign entities settle their differences. And according to the government they must recognize that Six Nations is sovereign or otherwise what other reason could they have for not wanting Six Nations land claims in court? Unless the documents they have purporting that Six Nations sold lands are fraudulent......OR the evidence Six Nations holds prove the lands were never ceded.

The fact is, our government refuses to go to court to settle these claims and has gone to great lengths to avoid the civil system. People only do that when they can't win and want to find another way to keep the stolen properties.

[ScottSA]

Court is not a place where two sovereign entities settle their differences.

Then you'll have no objection when canada utilizes the option of war as a viable and well recognized means of settling differences between sovereign entities?

I cannot believe the sheer tomfoolery and outright lies being told here by some with an obvious tomahawk to grind. The Hurons were never massacred? A French preist just made it up to bolster English claims? The Huron don't exist anymore because of why, exactly? Oh, right, Whitey did that too...

[jennie]

Then you'll have no objection when canada utilizes the option of war as a viable and well recognized means of settling differences between sovereign entities?

I cannot believe the sheer tomfoolery and outright lies being told here by some with an obvious tomahawk to grind. The Hurons were never massacred? A French preist just made it up to bolster English claims? The Huron don't exist anymore because of why, exactly? Oh, right, Whitey did that too...

It is hard to acknowledge that we've been fed a biased account of our history, eh?

War is not an option that Canadians will allow. It would just be stupid when the law is all we need.

All Canada has to do is uphold the law. Simple.

[Riverwind]

Court is not a place where two sovereign entities settle their differences.

Six Nations is not a sovereign entity, At most they are a glorified municipal government. It does not make a difference how many times you repeat that nonsense. Canadian courts have jurisdiction and they will eventually resolve this dispute.

The fact is, our government refuses to go to court to settle these claims and has gone to great lengths to avoid the civil system. People only do that when they can't win and want to find another way to keep the stolen properties.

BS. It costs money to go to court and there is always the risk of loss no matter how solid you think your case is. Insurance companies settle baseless lawsuits all of the time to avoid court costs and the remote possibility that they could lose.. Furthermore, the SCC has previously directed the government to find a negotiated solution so the government must make a good faith attempt to negotiate before allowing it to go to court. The government has time on its side and will negotiate forever if it needs to. Eventually, Six Nations will have to accept what the government is willing to offer or break off negotiations and go to court. Edited September 19, 2007 by Riverwind

[Posit]

Six Nations is not a sovereign entity, At most they are a glorified municipal government. It does not make a difference how many times you repeat that nonsense. Canadian courts have jurisdiction and they will eventually resolve this dispute.

BS. It costs money to go to court and there is always the risk of loss no matter how solid you think your case is. Insurance companies settle baseless lawsuits all of the time to avoid court costs and the remote possibility that they could lose.. Furthermore, the SCC has previously directed the government to find a negotiated solution so the government must make a good faith attempt to negotiate before allowing it to go to court. The government has time on its side and will negotiate forever if it needs to. Eventually, Six Nations will have to accept what the government is willing to offer or break off negotiations and go to court.

Nah. More B.S. Coming from you that doesn't surprise me. Maybe if you studied the legal papers a bit more instead of relying upon genealogy sites for your information might help....

[jennie]

Six Nations is not a sovereign entity, At most they are a glorified municipal government. It does not make a difference how many times you repeat that nonsense. Canadian courts have jurisdiction and they will eventually resolve this dispute.

BS. It costs money to go to court and there is always the risk of loss no matter how solid you think your case is. Insurance companies settle baseless lawsuits all of the time to avoid court costs and the remote possibility that they could lose.. Furthermore, the SCC has previously directed the government to find a negotiated solution so the government must make a good faith attempt to negotiate before allowing it to go to court. The government has time on its side and will negotiate forever if it needs to. Eventually, Six Nations will have to accept what the government is willing to offer or break off negotiations and go to court.

Actually the third option exists now too ... after three years of fruitless negotiations with the feds, the Tribunal will adjudicate the claim, so I hear.

[Posit]

Actually the third option exists now too ... after three years of fruitless negotiations with the feds, the Tribunal will adjudicate the claim, so I hear.

However, not in the case of the current lands claims by Six Nations. The Minister of Indian Affairs has already confirmed previously that Six Nation's (and Tyendinaga's) land claims are outside of the Specifis Lands Claims process. These issues will be only settled by negotiation, or we face the constant and persistent action so land reclamations and economic disruption for a long time to come......

[Riverwind]

Actually the third option exists now too ... after three years of fruitless negotiations with the feds, the Tribunal will adjudicate the claim, so I hear.

A tribunal that would only have power if it is set up under Canadian law.

[jennie]

However, not in the case of the current lands claims by Six Nations. The Minister of Indian Affairs has already confirmed previously that Six Nation's (and Tyendinaga's) land claims are outside of the Specifis Lands Claims process. These issues will be only settled by negotiation, or we face the constant and persistent action so land reclamations and economic disruption for a long time to come......

That's right. I had forgotten that.

[jennie]

A tribunal that would only have power if it is set up under Canadian law.

I would assume so since it is the feds setting it up.

Canadian law is ok, if it is followed.

[Caledonia]

However, not in the case of the current lands claims by Six Nations. The Minister of Indian Affairs has already confirmed previously that Six Nation's (and Tyendinaga's) land claims are outside of the Specifis Lands Claims process. These issues will be only settled by negotiation, or we face the constant and persistent action so land reclamations and economic disruption for a long time to come......

Well if the negotiations don't go well for the Occupiers, what then? More violence? Are they going to take no for an answer that the Plank Rd. Claim is not valid?

[jbg]

I always find it interesting how people wield the word "ignorant" when they can't find a suitable answer. It is true, though, isn't it? The Six Nations Indians did basically butcher most of the Indians that were resident in the Grand River area, didn't they? The land that they are occupying is, by their own definition, stolen from an other nation of Indians, isn't it?

Facts never seem to get in some peoples' way.

[Riverwind]

Well if the negotiations don't go well for the Occupiers, what then? More violence? Are they going to take no for an answer that the Plank Rd. Claim is not valid?

They won't take no for answer - that is why they are resorting to violance today. They hope to bully politicians in settling for much more than what Six Nations would legally entitled to.

BTW: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home

A violent confrontation last week in Caledonia, Ont., has prompted the Ontario government to pull out of this week's scheduled negotiations with Six Nations and the federal government.

“Ontario considers last week's confrontation unacceptable,” Lars Eedy, spokesman for the provincial aboriginal affairs ministry, said Tuesday in a news release. “Violence is never a solution to any dispute.”

[kengs333]

Nah. More B.S. Coming from you that doesn't surprise me. Maybe if you studied the legal papers a bit more instead of relying upon genealogy sites for your information might help....

I've been doing some reading, government reports from the 1840s stuff like that, and the interesting thing about them is that, according to them, the Six Nations Indians were generally incapable of maintaining control over what land they had not surrendered by that point. The documents go on to discuss the problem that squatters were causing--a problem that the Six Nations Indians were doing nothing to rectify. It further discusses means of rectifying the problem through the removal of the squatters, with some exceptions if the squatter proved himself to be a good person, ie. was not causing problems for the Indians, and had improved the value of the land. But it makes it clear that the vast majority of the squatters were to be removed. Suggestions are also made as to how to improve the situation for the Six Nations Indians by trying to get them to settle on individual plots rather than holding the land communally. While the reports admit that the was a problem with dishonest land speculators, it does seem that to a certain extent the Government was intent on protecting the Six Nations Indians; I think at that point, if that was not their true intention, all of the land in the Haldimand Tract probably could have been disposed of; in other words, if it wasn't for the Government, the would be no Six Nations Reserve. At least that's how I understood what I read; I'm surely you'll have a quite different interpretation

[kengs333]

I would assume so since it is the feds setting it up.

Canadian law is ok, if it is followed.

More like, Canadian law is okay if it suits your agenda and gets you what you want, right? Otherwise, it's burn tires in the streets and accuse Canadians of being racists...

You can't tell me that these kinds of tactics won't eventually alienate many Canadians, regardless of their ethnicity. Nobody likes to live in a country where this kind of mob rule takes place. In fact, I think that this is why many people come to Canada, to get away from this kind of crap.

[jennie]

More like, Canadian law is okay if it suits your agenda and gets you what you want, right? Otherwise, it's burn tires in the streets and accuse Canadians of being racists...

You can't tell me that these kinds of tactics won't eventually alienate many Canadians, regardless of their ethnicity. Nobody likes to live in a country where this kind of mob rule takes place. In fact, I think that this is why many people come to Canada, to get away from this kind of crap.

Well maybe "many people" should have investigated Canada's record for oppressing Indigenous Peoples first.

Maybe people should consider the HUGE role that natural resource wealth brings to EVERY Canadian EVERY day (including 8 straight federal budget surpluses.)

Maybe people should learn where that wealth is coming from, who has rights to that land and what the rightsholders are getting out of it right now.

EVERY Canadian benefits. EVERY Canadian owes.

[Caledonia]

Well maybe "many people" should have investigated Canada's record for oppressing Indigenous Peoples first.

Maybe people should consider the HUGE role that natural resource wealth brings to EVERY Canadian EVERY day (including 8 straight federal budget surpluses.)

Maybe people should learn where that wealth is coming from, who has rights to that land and what the rightsholders are getting out of it right now.

EVERY Canadian benefits. EVERY Canadian owes.

Yes the wealth is coming from hard working people making a honest living & doing something with their lives. EVERY Canadian EVERY day those honest Canadian Tax Payers that deserve to benefit in this country that they built. Not on the backs of people but the sweat from thier work.

[kengs333]

Well maybe "many people" should have investigated Canada's record for oppressing Indigenous Peoples first.

Maybe people should consider the HUGE role that natural resource wealth brings to EVERY Canadian EVERY day (including 8 straight federal budget surpluses.)

Maybe people should learn where that wealth is coming from, who has rights to that land and what the rightsholders are getting out of it right now.

EVERY Canadian benefits. EVERY Canadian owes.

You really just don't get it, do you?

[AngusThermopyle]

Well maybe "many people" should have investigated Canada's record for oppressing Indigenous Peoples first.

Maybe people should consider the HUGE role that natural resource wealth brings to EVERY Canadian EVERY day (including 8 straight federal budget surpluses.)

Maybe people should learn where that wealth is coming from, who has rights to that land and what the rightsholders are getting out of it right now.

EVERY Canadian benefits. EVERY Canadian owes.

So you are saying that 20 years of service to this country and it's people is not a form of payment? Are you ready to join the forces, spend years overseas in hostile lands? Didn't think so'

It's easy to give something you don't personally own or possess, its a hell of a lot harder to make personal sacrifices for others you don't even know.

I know you wont agree but personally I don't owe the Natives a fricken thing. I have contributed more to this country than any Native playing toy soldier in his surplus store combats ever will thank you. When you can show the tangible contribution you personally have made to the betterment of this country then you can lecture others on what they "owe".