Missile Attacks from Gaza

[M.Dancer]

At least 7 missiles fired by Islamic Jihad landed in Israel on Monday. The terrorists said their attack was a Back to school gift. The rockets were timed in hopes of killing school children on their way to morning classes. One missile barely missed a daycare. Infants were treated for shock.

Barak officially instructed Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilna'i and Director-General of the Defense Ministry Pinchas Buchris to speed up the delivery of portable shelters as well as the reinforcing of buildings and bus stops in Gaza-belt communities.

Barak also ordered the defense establishment to reveal the legal ramifications of cutting off supplies to the Gaza Strip in an effort to impair Hamas's ability to govern over the Palestinian populace.

The officials were asked to review Israeli and international law on cutting off electricity, stopping supply of fuel, and the supply of metals that could be used in the manufacturing of Kassam rockets.

The decision came a day before the security cabinet is scheduled to convene to discuss the escalation in Gaza and to debate different military courses of action as a response.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...icle%2FShowFull

The comical aspect of cutting Gaza off from electicity and gas is: Folks like Islamic Jihad want to live in a middle east without Israel...if Israel cuts power the Gazites will get a chance to live like they did before there was an Israel....

[Higgly]

Sort of reminds me of the attempt by Israeli Jews to firebomb a Palestinian girls' school.

[M.Dancer]

Sort of reminds me of the attempt by Israeli Jews to firebomb a Palestinian girls' school.

But I bet what happened to those Jews and what happens to the Islamioc Jihadists bears no resemblance.

[Higgly]

But I bet what happened to those Jews and what happens to the Islamioc Jihadists bears no resemblance.

Yes well of course those Jews were caught by the Israeli police who are fully armed and have full freedom of movement, unlike the Palesitnian police who have to ask permission to leave their posts and are virtually unarmed.

[M.Dancer]

Yes well of course those Jews were caught by the Israeli police who are fully armed and have full freedom of movement, unlike the Palesitnian police who have to ask permission to leave their posts and are virtually unarmed.

Oh so that's it. Couldn't be more like the police and the terrorists are on the same side.......

But virtually unarmed.....that's a nose puller though.....good one.

[M.Dancer]

All those runni g gun battle we hard about this summer, battles between the PA and Hamas...actually didn;t happen. Because, well, they can;t leave their posts and they are virtually unarmed.

[scribblet]

All those runni g gun battle we hard about this summer, battles between the PA and Hamas...actually didn;t happen. Because, well, they can;t leave their posts and they are virtually unarmed.

LOL

So if Israel responds and kills a few Pals. terrorists will it still be an 'over reaction'. Golly gee, since Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, it has been subjected to hundreds of rocket attacks from Gaza ( http://www.beyondimages.info/b176.html ) and threats of terrorism from Hamas leaders, but I suppose that doesn't count, and neither does the Palestinian's complete disregard for human life, including babies and school kids.

[buffycat]

At least 7 missiles fired by Islamic Jihad landed in Israel on Monday. The terrorists said their attack was a Back to school gift. The rockets were timed in hopes of killing school children on their way to morning classes. One missile barely missed a daycare. Infants were treated for shock.

First off - while I certainly do not condone the Qassams (it does nothing for the cause of the Palestinians IMO) - Dancer are you implying that there were no Qassams fired prior to the beginning of school? How about today? Did those who fired them (unclear as to who exactly that is - a splinter group? a wing of Hamas? a wing of Fatah? someone else who just wants to hijack any kind of peace?) actually say these rockets were a 'back to school gift'? If so, a source would be nice.

The quassam rockets are to be condemned, obviously, but let us all be thankful that NO ONE WAS KILLED.

As opposed to the five children who were slaughtered by the IDF in one week alone.

The comical aspect of cutting Gaza off from electicity and gas is: Folks like Islamic Jihad want to live in a middle east without Israel...if Israel cuts power the Gazites will get a chance to live like they did before there was an Israel....

Comical? Actually collective punishment is a WAR CRIME.

Also, Dancer there was electric power in many parts of the 'ME' before the creation of Israel.

The polarisation around these issues serves no one - not the average Israeli, nor the Palestinians under Israeli military occupation. It feeds the beast of hate on both sides and your spin and misdirection simply adds to it.

No one in their right heart and soul condones punishing the innocent - whether they be Israeli kids off to school or Palestinian children doing the same.

[Rue]

Sort of reminds me of the attempt by Israeli Jews to firebomb a Palestinian girls' school.

Care to give specifics or is this another one of Higgly's fabricated subjective slurs?

[Rue]

First off - while I certainly do not condone the Qassams (it does nothing for the cause of the Palestinians IMO) - Dancer are you implying that there were no Qassams fired prior to the beginning of school? How about today? Did those who fired them (unclear as to who exactly that is - a splinter group? a wing of Hamas? a wing of Fatah? someone else who just wants to hijack any kind of peace?) actually say these rockets were a 'back to school gift'? If so, a source would be nice.

The quassam rockets are to be condemned, obviously, but let us all be thankful that NO ONE WAS KILLED.

As opposed to the five children who were slaughtered by the IDF in one week alone.

Comical? Actually collective punishment is a WAR CRIME.

Also, Dancer there was electric power in many parts of the 'ME' before the creation of Israel.

The polarisation around these issues serves no one - not the average Israeli, nor the Palestinians under Israeli military occupation. It feeds the beast of hate on both sides and your spin and misdirection simply adds to it.

No one in their right heart and soul condones punishing the innocent - whether they be Israeli kids off to school or Palestinian children doing the same.

Perhaps then you can lecture yoru good friend Higgly who does not have the integrity to respond and back up his negative generalizations about all North American Jews and their elleged conspiracies with money and harassment campaigns and now his response which of course does what Higgly always does, tries to turn the topic and demonize Israel because heaven forbid Higgly is capable of acknowledging Israel is under constant fire-something you obviously just don't get when you make comments like the IDF killed 5 children as if they do it for fun and for no reason and it just happens because Israelis are evil and sit around planning to kill children.

The two of you should write a book on the Middle East and share your knowledge with millions around the world.

[buffycat]

Oh come on Rue, you know very well that a group of radical (Kach) settlers attempted to bomb a Palestinian girls school a few years back. They were arrested, they admit it freely and are proud of their actions - no different that the extremists on the Palestinian side.

You can google can't you? If not:

Google results

[buffycat]

Perhaps then you can lecture yoru good friend Higgly who does not have the integrity to respond and back up his negative generalizations about all North American Jews and their elleged conspiracies with money and harassment campaigns and now his response which of course does what Higgly always does, tries to turn the topic and demonize Israel because heaven forbid Higgly is capable of acknowledging Israel is under constant fire-something you obviously just don't get when you make comments like the IDF killed 5 children as if they do it for fun and for no reason and it just happens because Israelis are evil and sit around planning to kill children.

The two of you should write a book on the Middle East and share your knowledge with millions around the world.

As usual you are so full of venom Rue. Check your cornflakes for some yellow liquid.

As far as contributions from Diaspora Jews worldwide (not just NA) to various charities and such in Israel - this is well known and well practiced. Does the JNF ring a bell? As far as discourse in the US wrt the myriad of Israeli Lobby groups (Aipac being of course the largest and most well known) it is of course non-existant. Look to what has occurred to both Carter and Mearscheimer and Walt. Look at the many 'lectures' which have been cancelled. Look at things like 'Campus Watch'. Do these groups, who profess to speak for all Jews, serve a positive purpose? IMO - they simply add to the problem - along with the pit bull 'I'm outraged' Foxman - IMO these folk do far more harm than good.

As usual you are spewing false assumptions and accusations around and are unable to back up your own assertions. No one here has said the IDF does it for fun - just you. No one says that all Israelis are evil either - just you. As far as I can tell both populations are constantly under 'fire' but it seems that one group is experiencing far more real casualites than the other - the numbers speak for themselves there Rue. As you can see at this site.

Stop your nonsense and try to address the issues.

Killing kids is never acceptable. Period.

[Rue]

Interesting no where in the article Buffy quotes did it state that Israel "slaughtered' anyone. This of course is Buffy once again with her typical injection of moral melodrama.

what of course Buffy ignores with her moral judgement and melodrama is why these children get killed. For people like Buffy who need to demonize Israel and portray all Palestinians as innocent victims and paint all Israelis as evil demons (unless of course her friend Higgly is there to go further and label all Jews of North America whys top at Israelis) she won't mention that the children get killed because of deliberate tactics of Hamas to get them killed.

Hamas launches the rockets then sends children to collect the launchers. That is a fact. I know that for a fact from parents of these children who have had to take their children out of Gaza precisely because Hamas and Islamic Jihad use them in this manner.

As well Buffy's responses try make it seem that Hamas is unaware of these attacks or its using children to remove the launchers or deliberately launching rockets from civilian sites so that if Israeli shoots back at the last coordinates of the rocket site, civilians are killed.

Hamas deliberately uses children and civilians as shields to shoot. Then if Israel fires back at the last sites and civilians are hurt or killed, on cue the Buffy's of the world then lecture how Israel should sit back and die from missile attacks and be wiped out since it should not shoot back and chance killing civilians. It should just die out because Israelis should die but Palestinians shouldn't.

Yes in the Buffy world of Palestinians should not die but Israelis should, Hamas and Islamic Jihad are not morally culpable for the death of their own people by using them as shields. No we just ignore that and blame Israel and accuse Israel of engaging in slaughters. Israel has no context for its fighting back or shooting back. Israel just slaughters because Israelis are demons they just slaughter for the sake of slaughtering. Its what they do when they don't conspire I suppose with North American Jews as Higgly seems tos uggest.

See in Buffy's world there is a double standard. Israel is supposed to care about Palestinian civilians and never shoot back but Palestinians they don't have to care about Israelis at all or try stop Hamas or Islamic Jihad from using them as shields and saying to their own militants-stop-stop once and for all and sit and talk. Do not represent us if all you can do is shoot missiles. No in Buffy's world its understandable to kill Israelis. It is just a given.

See its Israel's fault. These missiles are launched because Israel is bad and deserves it.

These missiles are not launched as part of a campaign which wants all of Israel and Jordan given back to Hamas. No not at all. Its just because Israel sets up road blocks and settlements. Yah that's it. No other reason.

And no Israel has no right to prevent terror with road-blocks. No it should allow terrorists to drive around free as can be to launch attacks and missiles.

Thanks again Buffy for your fair, non emotional, balanced analysis that presents both sides of the conflict in an even handed manner.

Again I can't wait for you and Higgly to go on a lecture tour.

[buffycat]

Well Rue, reading your latest diatribe above, which is really only a puffed up personal attack, it seems the only one who is justifying killing children is YOU!!

Thanks for showing your true colours.

Man you are piece of work, blame the victim - nice one!! I recall a certain other group doing this years ago - no different.

Again you may want to visit this site:

B'TSelem

Shalom.

[scribblet]

Interesting no where in the article Buffy quotes did it state that Israel "slaughtered' anyone. This of course is Buffy once again with her typical injection of moral melodrama.

what of course Buffy ignores with her moral judgement and melodrama is why these children get killed. For people like Buffy who need to demonize Israel and portray all Palestinians as innocent victims and paint all Israelis as evil demons (unless of course her friend Higgly is there to go further and label all Jews of North America whys top at Israelis) she won't mention that the children get killed because of deliberate tactics of Hamas to get them killed.

Hamas launches the rockets then sends children to collect the launchers. That is a fact. I know that for a fact from parents of these children who have had to take their children out of Gaza precisely because Hamas and Islamic Jihad use them in this manner.

You beat me to it. There's a big difference between the two incidents; Hamas deliberately targets the children with full intent to kill as many kids as they can. The fact that Hamas sends in young kids to retrieve rocket launchers after firing them at Israeli children, should give us a clue as to the mentality of the terrorists.

[M.Dancer]

Dancer are you implying that there were no Qassams fired prior to the beginning of school?

No, why? There are daily attacks.....they just don't aways intentionallly target daycares on the fiorst day of school.

Did those who fired them (unclear as to who exactly that is - a splinter group? a wing of Hamas? a wing of Fatah?

Islamic Jihad.

..... actually say these rockets were a 'back to school gift'? If so, a source would be nice.

The army said seven rockets, some fired from as close as a mile away, fell in or near Sderot on Monday. The militant group Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the barrage, calling it "a gift to the Israelis for the new school year" and retaliation for "crimes against Palestinian children."

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/a...1&cset=true

The quassam rockets are to be condemned, obviously, but let us all be thankful that NO ONE WAS KILLED.

This time no one was killed, they aren't always so lucky, but their intent is to kill and this time their intent was to kill children.

As opposed to the five children who were slaughtered by the IDF in one week alone.

There is no dispute over the fact that the children were killed near rocket launchers. However, the people near rocket launchers are usually civilians, and not the operating crews

Colateral deaths because the terrorist murderers position their rockets amongst the children using them as shields. It gives the israelis a cruel choice, allow israeli children to be targets or attack the rocket sites. In this case there is a clear violation of the rules of war. The savages who use children should pay the penalty.

Comical? Actually collective punishment is a WAR CRIME.

That is what the savages intend. Why else do you think they target daycares or falalfel stands?

[M.Dancer]

Interesting no where in the article Buffy quotes did it state that Israel "slaughtered' anyone. This of course is Buffy once again with her typical injection of moral melodrama.

Demonizing is a SOP for that kind....

[Rue]

Oh come on Rue, you know very well that a group of radical (Kach) settlers attempted to bomb a Palestinian girls school a few years back. They were arrested, they admit it freely and are proud of their actions - no different that the extremists on the Palestinian side.

You can google can't you? If not:

Google results

That has nothing absoltuely nothing to do with the missiles beings hot into Israel or the innocent civilians who get killed when Hamas uses them as shields which is the issue.

Your attempt now to go back to an act that has nothing to do with the on-going conflict, and throw it back is typical. Its typical of what you and Higgly do. Absolutely typical to the point of being past the point of absurd. Someone brings up an issue, and you have to reach for an unrelated incident which you then do what with? well? Infer that this is Israeli state policy and the reason Hamas and Islamic Jihad do what they do? I expect it from Higgly....how about you-is this what you want to end up as a shrill looking for unrelated incidents to throw in just for the sake of one reason and one reason only-to smeer an entire people?

Once again Buffy you miss the point. When I speak I do not smeer Palestinians because of the actions of Hamas or Islamic Jihad. On the other hand you and Higgly do not miss the opportunity to try smeer the entire Israeli people when you discuss the ME conflict. That is the difference and why I have no respect for any of your comments and is precisely why your friend Higgly who you defend does not have the integrity to come on this post and admit he engaged in a bigoted smeer of all North American Jews and threw in the above ambiguous reference which you now clarify because he needs to smeer ALL Israelis.

The 2 of you are typical of shrills. You can only see one agenda, one cause and effect, one side of the conflict and you show it time and time again in trying to justify responses that have no relation to the topic but are thrown in for one reason only-to incite hatred against Israelis and demonize them.

Boo.

[Rue]

"As far as contributions from Diaspora Jews worldwide (not just NA) to various charities and such in Israel - this is well known and well practiced. "

Ao is the fact that Christians and Muslims and every other people in the world donate to various charities. The fact that you try to defend what Higgly stated again is pathetic. He labelled ALL Jews of North America. You now try to do the same by trying to rationalize it as being "well known". what is "well known". Do you mean it is well known all people of all faiths donate to charities or do you specifically only single out Jews when they do it? What gives you the right to try create this double standard where if Muslims outside the ME donate to Palestinian charities you remain silent, but somehow if Jews do it, you have the right to single it out. More to the point Buffy, do you see Higgly suggesting Palestinians outside the ME donate to terrorist organizations or that Muslims donate to terrorist organizations or that Christians have? Do you see Higgly or you pointing out Hindus, Christians, Muslims, people of all faiths and walks of life donate to many causes some political, some terrorist, etc.?

What gives you or Higgly the right to slur all Jews and refer to their charitable activities as a political conspiracy let alone one designed to harass politicians, etc. That Buffy is the point. The point is you take charitable donations and impugn their cause and purpose and make negative generalizations as to the political motives of ALL Jews.

Do me a favour, refrain from speaking on behalf of Diaspora Jews worldwide. You can not speak for all of them or even some of them. at best all you do is continue to make negative generalizations about all Diaspora Jews. Even you in your pathetic attempt to defend Higgly's anti-semitic exercise of making negative political assumptions as to all North American Jews and their motives, even you did not have the decency in your response to state SOME Diaspora Jews. You couldn't even resist the need to keep the reference to Diaspora Jews general so as to include ALL of us.

That Buffy is the point. Some of us are sick and tired of people like you lumping us all in one category and then making assumptions and generalizations about our motives, beliefs, etc.

Now let's look at more of your pathetic attempt to justify making netaive generalizations about all Jews;

you trot out;

"Does the JNF ring a bell?"

"the myriad of Israeli Lobby groups"

"Look at things like 'Campus Watch'."

You throw out these names to justify making assumptions about all Jews and how do you do it well here in your own words;

"Do these groups, who profess to speak for all Jews..."

This is a blatant example of you Buffy subjectively assuming these groups speak for all Jews and therefore gives you the the right to make negative assumptions about all Jews.

First of all it is sheer nonsense for you to make the statement these groups speak on behalf of all Jews. They do not and have never claimed to.

More to the point, say they did, say for one absurd second it could be stated they speak on behalf of all Jews, even if that was the case, that would not absolutely not give you or Higgly or anyone else the right to make negative gerenalizations and assumptions as to the motives and aspirations of any or all Jews. That would not absolve you of bigotry and bigoted stereotypical thinking.

The fact that you can't understand that is the point. You try engage in this lame pretense that you have the right to be bigoted because you subjectively feel Jewish groups that organize automatically gives you that right. Not only is your contention lacking in any logic or common sense but it is out and out absurd.

Using your logic all of us should make negative generalizations about all Muslims and all Christians and all Hindus, and other groups because some of them form charities or interest groups.

"As usual you are spewing false assumptions"

Read your assumptions Buffy. You accuse me of fasle assumptions? Who assumed these groups speak on behalf of all Jews? Who assumes they can make negative generalizations about all Jews because Jews form interest groups?

Tell me Buffy is this like me lumping all Jews together because I stated and state again neither you nor Higgly or anyone else has the right to make negative generalizations and assumptions as to all Jews let alone some Jews?

Because I confront you and expose your assumptions as false and illogical this means I am making assumptions?

Again some more of the Buffy logic

You want a blatant example of your false assumptions, here Buffy you are full of them, read....

"As far as I can tell both populations are constantly under 'fire' but it seems that one group is experiencing far more real casualites than the other "

Tell us all Buffy. How is a casualty of a Palestinian far more real then a causualty of an Israeli? I mean your comments just are past the point of absurd. Tell us all. when a Palestinian goes kaboom that is real, but when an Israeli goes kaboom its not? There if I put it in such simplistic terms can you grasp it?

Hello. Israelis and Palestinians go kaboom the same way when they blow up. They bleed the same way. Their guts come out the same way. One set of bowels is no more real then another set of bowels.

Here is your next false assumption;

"the numbers speak for themselves there Rue."

Again you do not take the time to think. The number of deaths and injuries on both sides does not make one side's suffering more "real". The fact that you think you can define reality by number of deaths and casualties says it all. You haven't a clue do you. when a person dies or is injured or dodges a missile, that is real. Your world of trying to exploit tragedy and turn it into a pissing match a bloody soccer or football score where you award the designation of "winner" or "more real" to the person with who you think has the higher number reflects your absolute inability to conceive in any way other then with your preconceived notion that one side is better then the other.

You Buffy have the need to create winners and losers, and "real people" and "less real people" or "unreal people" or "bigger volume victims". You make a mockery of your pseuto protestations that you care about both sides.

Go back to the lecture circuit with Higgly and tell us all about how all we Diaspora Jews engage in our conspiracies.

I am waiting.

Read back your words Buffy;

"Killing kids is never acceptable. Period."

How do you dare say this after you state the suffering of Israelis is less real. Which one is it Buffy?

Before you tell me to stop the nonsense, read back your words Buffy.

I am trying to stop the nonsense and address the issues as you stated, by exposing your comments for what they are-illogical and bias to the point of absurd.

[Rue]

Well Rue, reading your latest diatribe above, which is really only a puffed up personal attack, it seems the only one who is justifying killing children is YOU!!

Thanks for showing your true colours.

Man you are piece of work, blame the victim - nice one!! I recall a certain other group doing this years ago - no different.

Again you may want to visit this site:

B'TSelem

Shalom.

Before you spew hebrew at me Buffy read back your comments about Israelis. Read what I write. At no time have I ever stated Palestinians are to blame for anything. What I have stated is that Muslim people have the choice to challenge Hamas and Islamic Jihad and refuse to allow their children to be used to move rocket launchers and they can refuse to allow their homes or themselves to be used as shields. They can refuse and I know many who have.

Saying Palestinian people need to rise up and denounce the terror of Hamas or Islamic Jihad is a plea for them to look for something other then terror to solve their problems. This does not blame them for anything.

You on the other hand Buffy, your words do nothing but hold all Israelis accountable for the actions of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. You smeer them all and blame them all for the ME conflict.

So do us all a favour, save your righteousness. You are in no position to lecture anyone on blaming victims. You have no problems lumping all Israelis into the "oppressor category" and blaming them when they try defend themselves.

[Rue]

Of course Dancer in Buffy's world, Israelis are to sit back and do nothing. In her world if we ask Palestinians to denounce violence so that the IDF is not forced to respond to defend its people, that b"lames" them.

In the world of Buffy we make the assumption that shooting missiles should not be responded to because when Israelis die that is o.k. but if Palestinians die, that is not o.k. You see in Buffy's world it is more real when a Palestinian dies. The blood of a Jew is not as real. More to the point, if a jew donates to a charity this can be used as justification to impugn negative political motives on all Jews but if Palestinians are criticized for not forming a collective to fight terrorism within their society, this is unfair and victimizes them.

Of course encouraging Palestinians to empower themselves to transcend violence is victimization in the world of Buffy.

Oh wait. I just remembered. Israelis don't need sanitary napkins. Their bleeding is not real.

[buffycat]

Rue, again I ask: Stop putting words in my mouth - words said only by you! Accusations that are unsubstantiated and outright lies.

How many Israelis have been killed by Qassams in Sderot? How many? Do you even know? Yet, how many Palestinian civilians have been killed by various incursions into Gaza as well as the West Bank? How many children?

There is a big difference between the qassams and the high tech 500 lb bombs dropped neatly from the f-16's so lovingly supplied by the US. Yet of course, you totally neglect that I did say "I do NOT condone the use of the qassams". No you don't bother to notice that do you? I think you are getting desperate Rue - you have to lie now in a vain attempt to discredit and slander me.

Well Rue, before you blow another gasket you may actually want to look into the deaths of these five children - yes children - none of which were retrieving rocket launchers as you say - even the IDF admits as much. Sad that this co-lateral killing of innocent kids is so easily dismissed by you - you who pretends to be all 'equal' in your own judgements. What a load of horse hooey!!

Of course, for you to even admit that some of Israel's policies are certainly racist and totally unethical to the nth degree, hell will have had to frozen over.

Don't bother to respond to me if all you wish to do is hurl insults and personal attacks - oh never mind dear, that IS all that YOU can do.

[M.Dancer]

Rue, again I ask: Stop putting words in my mouth - words said only by you! Accusations that are unsubstantiated and outright lies.

How many Israelis have been killed by Qassams in Sderot?

What a moronic question

How many is too many? Are two toddlers, too few?

[Rue]

Rue, again I ask: Stop putting words in my mouth - words said only by you! Accusations that are unsubstantiated and outright lies....Of course, for you to even admit that some of Israel's policies are certainly racist and totally unethical to the nth degree, hell will have had to frozen over.

My words are directed specifically to what you state not who you are as a person.

My concern is as to what you say and the implications of your decision to make negative generalizations- not who you are.

I also find it inconsistent you accuse me of personal attacks for engaging in the very same approach you use when making references to Jews and Israelis and moi although I enoy being the subect of personal attacks. I am sure I deserve them.

I would also point out you make it very difficult to debate precisely because of your decision to engage in subjective negative generalizations about Jews based and wo what appears to be your personal feelings since you do not provide any specific objective evidence for your references until you are repeatedly challenged and even then your references to something objective that can be measured through third party evidence is presented by you in a very subjective manner.

For example you quoted an Haaretz article as a reference but your comments completely ignored what it said in your use of it as a reference which in my opinion misleads people as to the contents of what the article said.

Now you state that even I must admit that some Israeli policies are racist. Why? Again you throw out a negative assumption about Israeli policies and then ask me to blindly accept such an assumption. Why?

Without any reference to the law or policy you are referring to how am I supposed to comment? Do you think it is logical and acceptable to jump to subjective conclusions based on assumptions with no references or basis? It is also precisely why, each time you engage in such an exercise of assumption and now ask me to join in with you, I again say to you. your ambiguity and subjectivity with due respect lends to the appearance you are making blanket slurs.

What I am tempted to assume from your latest comments is that it may be that Israeli policies designed to prevent terror are being assumed by you to be racist.

What I am also tempted to assume is that your comments are typical of many critics of Israel wgho are quick to call it racist but then provide no sunstance from which they make such assumptions.

What I have seen in the past in your writings and others who are quick to accuse Israel of racism, is a preconceived negative stereotype that impugns the desire of Jews to have a collective indentity and express it through self-determination by constantly referring to this desire as being racist-which is ironically, necessarily a racist assumption since it singles out Jews as a people unlike any other people. and assigns them negative characteristics for wanting to be self-determined.

What I also am tempted to assume is that your decision to throw the accusation of racism about is a device you try to use to gain what you may believe is a higher moral ground then the people you accuse of being racist without ever explaining the basis for your assumptions.

In my case when I accuse you of expressing anti-semitic ( stereotypical negative generalizations against Jews or Israelis) comments, I explain the basis for my allegation(s) with full specific context and references to your own words not mine.

The incident with the 5 children you now raise yet again, has nothing to do with the issues that were being debated. In my opinion, you threw out the incident as an aside without any context or attachment to what was being debated, as an attempt or communication device to demonize Israel, i.e., to suggest as a nation of people and as a rpecept of being self-determined it condones the killing of Palestinian children.

Certainly your latest response and choice of words in my opinion continues to lend to that appearance.

Pray tell, could it be Buffy that your decision to this incident out of context and throw it into the debate, is the kind of desperation you accuse me of?

Buffy have I used any words that expolit the death of Israeli children or use their memory to try incite or justify blanket negative generalizations about Palestinians?

My words speak for themselves when placed next to yours. I practice what I preach. I do not engage in blanket negative generalizations about Muslims or Palestinians.

I do not assign them collective motive and use ambiguous references.

I do not make assumptions there charitable donations are political.

I do not make generalizations they are racist.

I do not engage in ambiguous negative generalizations that call on people to make stereotypical assumptions as to motive and belief.

In fact have openly challenged not just people like you, but people on my side of the equation when I have felt they have engaged in stereotypical thinking regarding Muslims or Palestinians and anyone else and I welcome it being proven to me if I have done so about any people and try learn from that.

I will say this again loud and clear-each and every time you make blanket negative generalizations about the motives of Israelis or Jews in part or in whole, you are engaging in anti-semitism and no trying to suggest its only criticism of Israeli policy does not wash until you make it a point to be specific as to who and what you are criticizing and why and present something other then your subjective feelings.

I would also expect if you want to debate a specific policy, you state what that policy is and what your concerns are without insulting or impugning the characteristics of an entire people.

I expect more from you and challenge you precisely because I genuinely believe in your case you are not an intentional anti-semite.

Now on that note, perhaps someone else can spend the energy it takes to respond to you.

DancingDude be my guest. As well JBG may I humbly say I feel I have more then made up for my criticism of your bacon comment and feel you should forgive me and take over.

Please someone else step in and try Waltz with Matilda. My feet and shins are sore.

Edited September 6, 2007 by Rue

[southerncomfort]

My words are directed specifically to what you state not who you are. Your words speak for themselves and have consequences. Continue to make negative generalizations about ANY people or group and I will continue to challenge your statements and expose them as prattle. My concern is to what you say not who you are. In my opinion I find it inconsistent you find challenges to what you say personal attacks, you appear to have no problems dishing out the same criticism in the form of group negative generalizations against Jews and Israelis.

I find it inconsistent you do to others what you now complain of.

I wish I had the knowledge and ability to write like you do Rue, I can only say thanks for putting my feelings (and I'm sure others) into words. I totally support your posts.