Harper Announces Deep Water Port

[jdobbin]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

In an effort to strengthen territorial claims in the Arctic, Canada will build an army training centre and construct a deep-sea military port in the heart of the Northwest Passage, Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced Friday while touring the region.

The 4,100-member Canadian Rangers force will also be increased by 900, Harper said in Resolute Bay, Nunavut.

The prime minister has been asserting Canadian sovereignty over the region while touring the far north this week.

The Canadian Forces training centre, which will be built in Resolute Bay, will be a year-round facility that can accommodate 100 personnel.

The deep-water military port will be constructed in Nanisivik. The Rangers will also be re-quipped, Harper added.

I have no problem with the Ranger announcement. It is a good investment in equipment and people.

I do think the base in Nanisivik will present problems. The population there is presently zero and while it is a deep water port, it is about as basic as they come. I don't believe the costs will be limited to $60 million for construction and manning this facility. It might have been easier to name Churchill as the main base since it can be supplied by rail and air and use Nanisivik as a fueling station. Churchill is also well equipped to send supplies to the territories by barge.

The main problem with the facility is that the port can't really be used for dual use. It is too far away from the rest of the population of Nunavut to supply the territory. Like the company town that existed before it, the military base will have only one role and a seasonal one at that.

[weaponeer]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

I have no problem with the Ranger announcement. It is a good investment in equipment and people.

I do think the base in Nanisivik will present problems. The population there is presently zero and while it is a deep water port, it is about as basic as they come. I don't believe the costs will be limited to $60 million for construction and manning this facility. It might have been easier to name Churchill as the main base since it can be supplied by rail and air and use Nanisivik as a fueling station. Churchill is also well equipped to send supplies to the territories by barge.

The main problem with the facility is that the port can't really be used for dual use. It is too far away from the rest of the population of Nunavut to supply the territory. Like the company town that existed before it, the military base will have only one role and a seasonal one at that.

I agree, Churchill would have bee the best choice for all the reasons you mentioned. But, there is always a but, no northern territory has asignifigant military base, there is a small rescue unit (4 planes) in Yellowknife, that's all. We need to seriously start thinking about operating and basing larger military forces in the arctic. The north will now have a full scale military base. Churchill could be, should be, used as the main supply base to support Nanisivik. Just my 2 cents

[weaponeer]

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/site/index_e.asp

But on another note....

[weaponeer]

more good info.......

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/

[jdobbin]

I agree, Churchill would have bee the best choice for all the reasons you mentioned. But, there is always a but, no northern territory has asignifigant military base, there is a small rescue unit (4 planes) in Yellowknife, that's all. We need to seriously start thinking about operating and basing larger military forces in the arctic. The north will now have a full scale military base. Churchill could be, should be, used as the main supply base to support Nanisivik. Just my 2 cents

Good to hear from you weaponeer. I agree on the military training center at Resolute Bay. I believe that this is the year round military base the north needs.

I am just deeply skeptical that the costs described in building the Nanisivik port will truly be just $60 million. I have no problems making it a re-fueling station for the coast guard, cruise ships and the military but the costs of actually putting people and resources in this particular area seem prohibitive when the area is already served by a dual use northern sea port.

I'd hate to hear that in five or ten years from now that the base was hugely costly and hard to maintain and built in the wrong place.

Edited August 10, 2007 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/site/index_e.asp

But on another note....

Is this what the C-17 will be known as in Canada?

[old_bold&cold]

Churchill is in the wrong geographical place and will not be suitable for what the reasons for this will be about. We need to be able to express our soviegnty over the northern most lands in Canada. The Northwest passage will be a open water route year round within a decade, and the natural resources of the north will come into play very much so in the near future. I think in my lifetime I will see the NWT to have huge mineral and resource ventures, that will make it a very rich area, and may even rival Alberta in many things. This is why we need bases and deep water ports to be more north then Churchill. The north needs infastructure to be planned and built now for the times that we should all see coming.

[rogue state]

Now is the time for that public money parasite, ArmyGuy, to step in and defend Canada's sovereignty and unity ! that is the real work of the Army.

Not with some poor goatherders in Afganistan, presented as "dangerous terrorists", but with Russians.

[jdobbin]

Churchill is in the wrong geographical place and will not be suitable for what the reasons for this will be about. We need to be able to express our soviegnty over the northern most lands in Canada. The Northwest passage will be a open water route year round within a decade, and the natural resources of the north will come into play very much so in the near future. I think in my lifetime I will see the NWT to have huge mineral and resource ventures, that will make it a very rich area, and may even rival Alberta in many things. This is why we need bases and deep water ports to be more north then Churchill. The north needs infastructure to be planned and built now for the times that we should all see coming.

Churchill is well equipped to deal with the Arctic and unlike Nanisivik won't need $60 million to get ready for Navy ships. At present Nanisivik does not have any permanent population. It is the site of a former company town and is about as basic as it comes. It might be an ideal fueling station but as a base, it leaves a lot to be desired. Even Nunavut's leaders are saying they are not going to benefit much from this base because it is too far away to be of any good to the territory. For the Navy, it will be a base that has to have all its supplies shipped in and it will be very expensive to maintain. The community itself is quite a bit inland from the Admiralty Inlet because it used to be a mining town.

Here is the landing strip.

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http...%3Doff%26sa%3DG

Here is the present airport terminal.

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http...%3Doff%26sa%3DG

The only reason the airport has been kept open around this ghost is because it serves Arctic Bay which is 19 kilometres away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanisivik_Airport

Arctic Bay can be reached by road and it has 700 people.

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http...%3Doff%26sa%3DG

Churchill has rail, air and hydro connections and a dual use port with direct access to the Arctic.

Here is the present Port of Churchill. It is ready to go right now and you don't even need to wait several years for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Churchi..._1996-08-12.jpg

[capricorn]

The initiatives announced by the government may motivate many Canadians to relocate to these northernmost regions of our country. It appears there will be ample job prospects for adventurous workers. I agree that the present sparse northern population is a huge factor in determining the strategic location of facilities but is there a chance this will change in the short term? So it's cold there, no big deal. I have confidence in the ambitiousness and determination of Canadians.

My question is will claiming our northern sovereignty capture the imagination of Canadians and stir nationalistic pride, or will Canadians complain about the high cost of such endeavors? IMO these are important unknowns that could affect the success or failure of Harper's efforts to assert our presence in the north.

Personally, I think securing our north is essential and this is a matter that has been neglected by successive governments.

[weaponeer]

Is this what the C-17 will be known as in Canada?

Yes, it will be known as the CC-177. Canadian Cargo model 177. The Canadian Airforce re designates the type numbers of all it aircraft, for example the CF18, which is the American FA18 Hornet is actually known in CAF as CF188 Hornet, Canadian Fighter model 188. All CF aircraft have a 3 digit 100 series number as well. The C130 Herc is the CC130 in Canada, the P3 Orion sub hunter is the CP140 in Canada, etc.....

[weaponeer]

Churchill is in the wrong geographical place and will not be suitable for what the reasons for this will be about. We need to be able to express our soviegnty over the northern most lands in Canada. The Northwest passage will be a open water route year round within a decade, and the natural resources of the north will come into play very much so in the near future. I think in my lifetime I will see the NWT to have huge mineral and resource ventures, that will make it a very rich area, and may even rival Alberta in many things. This is why we need bases and deep water ports to be more north then Churchill. The north needs infastructure to be planned and built now for the times that we should all see coming.

I see Jdobbs point, he does make very good points, but I agree with you. We need to be in the HIGH ARCTIC..... A major CF base in the high arctic. Jdobb is right in his assumption about the cost, it will be more than $60 million, I have no doubt...

[weaponeer]

Now is the time for that public money parasite, ArmyGuy, to step in and defend Canada's sovereignty and unity ! that is the real work of the Army.

Not with some poor goatherders in Afganistan, presented as "dangerous terrorists", but with Russians.

public money parasite

and this from a guy who cannot find a job and is living off the troff of taxpayers who work.......... :angry:

[weaponeer]

Churchill is well equipped to deal with the Arctic and unlike Nanisivik won't need $60 million to get ready for Navy ships. At present Nanisivik does not have any permanent population. It is the site of a former company town and is about as basic as it comes. It might be an ideal fueling station but as a base, it leaves a lot to be desired. Even Nunavut's leaders are saying they are not going to benefit much from this base because it is too far away to be of any good to the territory. For the Navy, it will be a base that has to have all its supplies shipped in and it will be very expensive to maintain. The community itself is quite a bit inland from the Admiralty Inlet because it used to be a mining town.

Here is the landing strip.

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http...%3Doff%26sa%3DG

Here is the present airport terminal.

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http...%3Doff%26sa%3DG

The only reason the airport has been kept open around this ghost is because it serves Arctic Bay which is 19 kilometres away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanisivik_Airport

Arctic Bay can be reached by road and it has 700 people.

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http...%3Doff%26sa%3DG

Churchill has rail, air and hydro connections and a dual use port with direct access to the Arctic.

Here is the present Port of Churchill. It is ready to go right now and you don't even need to wait several years for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Churchi..._1996-08-12.jpg

Hi Jdobb,

I agree 100% with all you points, but what about a need to be active in the very high arctic. A refuelling base is a great idea, no doubt there will be some, but we are now looking a naval "fleet" base in the arctic. That means supply depots, staging areas for land & airforces, most likely enlarging the local small airport you showed us.

I agree about Churchill, but how would you deal with the political issue of another major military base in Manitoba?? Shilo & Winnipeg, and now Churchill, I could imagine the northern territory gov'ts screaming to high heaven.

[jdobbin]

Hi Jdobb,

I agree 100% with all you points, but what about a need to be active in the very high arctic. A refuelling base is a great idea, no doubt there will be some, but we are now looking a naval "fleet" base in the arctic. That means supply depots, staging areas for land & airforces, most likely enlarging the local small airport you showed us.

I agree about Churchill, but how would you deal with the political issue of another major military base in Manitoba?? Shilo & Winnipeg, and now Churchill, I could imagine the northern territory gov'ts screaming to high heaven.

Alberta has three bases, Ontario has nine bases, B.C. has four bases and the territories have three bases although only one is permanently manned.

Manitoba has already had one base closed in the last five years.

Nunavut has expressed doubts about the site chosen. I think a good dual use port will do more for northern security and development than a port quite far from the nearest civilization.

I doubt anything can be done about the decision now. My prediction is that it will cost plenty and that more should have been done to have a real discussion about northern defence and development.

[weaponeer]

Alberta has three bases, Ontario has nine bases, B.C. has four bases and the territories have three bases although only one is permanently manned.

Manitoba has already had one base closed in the last five years.

Nunavut has expressed doubts about the site chosen. I think a good dual use port will do more for northern security and development than a port quite far from the nearest civilization.

I doubt anything can be done about the decision now. My prediction is that it will cost plenty and that more should have been done to have a real discussion about northern defence and development.

Alberta has only two major bases, Cold Lake and an army brigade base in Edmonton. Wainright & Suffield are army maneuver training areas, not too many people. Although, I have heard from some army folks I know that the new Leopard tanks will be consolidated into a full regiment to be based in Wainright. Ontario only has 6 bases I can think of, North Bay, Petawawa, Ottawa, Kingston, Trenton & Borden. There is a militia training area at Meaford. BC has only Comox and Victoria that are major bases. Perhaps your using differnt criteria to define what a base is.

I cannot think of a major base that has closed in Manitoba. Portage is stil a military flight training school, they just contracted the training out to Kelowna Flightcraft and move the military people out. A training unit is not operational, and you can staff it with civilian contractors. the mission in Portage is still there. As for Winnipeg, the army garrison is part of 17Wg, the garrison closed, by 17 Wg is still there. The army move to Shilo boosted that base.

Having a base there has benefits. You will have a major base where you had none before. You will be able to project power deep into the arctic. A naval base means piers, dry dock repair facilities, fuel storage, ammo storage, housing, medical facilities, operations buildings as well as a major upgrade to the nearby airport. We will have a major base where we can preposition supplies, and support not only naval, but army and airforce operations throughout the area. We will have to upgrade the airport to support CAF planes, C130, C17, CF18 etc... we will have barrack and supply facilities to support army ops, as well as naval units from Halifax or Victoria that will have a base to stage from. There is major potential here I feel.

As for Churchill, I will most likely be the supply base for the Nunavut naval base. Supplies will be shipped there and then forwarded to Nunavut. It means big bucks for Churchill. As a NORAD guy, I welcome an airbase that far north to conduct air ops, it will give us great capability. The decision has been made, we need to look at what we can do with the hand we are dealt....

[jdobbin]

Alberta has only two major bases, Cold Lake and an army brigade base in Edmonton. Wainright & Suffield are army maneuver training areas, not too many people. Although, I have heard from some army folks I know that the new Leopard tanks will be consolidated into a full regiment to be based in Wainright. Ontario only has 6 bases I can think of, North Bay, Petawawa, Ottawa, Kingston, Trenton & Borden. There is a militia training area at Meaford. BC has only Comox and Victoria that are major bases. Perhaps your using differnt criteria to define what a base is.

I cannot think of a major base that has closed in Manitoba. Portage is stil a military flight training school, they just contracted the training out to Kelowna Flightcraft and move the military people out. A training unit is not operational, and you can staff it with civilian contractors. the mission in Portage is still there. As for Winnipeg, the army garrison is part of 17Wg, the garrison closed, by 17 Wg is still there. The army move to Shilo boosted that base.

Having a base there has benefits. You will have a major base where you had none before. You will be able to project power deep into the arctic. A naval base means piers, dry dock repair facilities, fuel storage, ammo storage, housing, medical facilities, operations buildings as well as a major upgrade to the nearby airport. We will have a major base where we can preposition supplies, and support not only naval, but army and airforce operations throughout the area. We will have to upgrade the airport to support CAF planes, C130, C17, CF18 etc... we will have barrack and supply facilities to support army ops, as well as naval units from Halifax or Victoria that will have a base to stage from. There is major potential here I feel.

As for Churchill, I will most likely be the supply base for the Nunavut naval base. Supplies will be shipped there and then forwarded to Nunavut. It means big bucks for Churchill. As a NORAD guy, I welcome an airbase that far north to conduct air ops, it will give us great capability. The decision has been made, we need to look at what we can do with the hand we are dealt....

CFB Suffield is the largest base in Canada. And you are right, it is where the the Army is planning to base an armoured regiment. It still constitutes three CFB bases according the DND.

For Ontario, I am also including CFS Leitrim and Department of National Defence Headquarters. I did not include CRPTC Connaught Range. I guess they might not be bases as such but they are populated by many Canadian Forces people.

CFB Winnipeg (Kapyong) is considered a closed Manitoba base. Portage is considered strictly private nowadays.

I know there the decision is moving forward now. I am still of a mind that it will cost plenty more than $60 million. If I was the hazard a guess right now, I'd say it is going to be in the hundreds of millions and possibly billions of dollars.

[weaponeer]

CFB Suffield is the largest base in Canada. And you are right, it is where the the Army is planning to base an armoured regiment. It still constitutes three CFB bases according the DND.

For Ontario, I am also including CFS Leitrim and Department of National Defence Headquarters. I did not include CRPTC Connaught Range. I guess they might not be bases as such but they are populated by many Canadian Forces people.

CFB Winnipeg (Kapyong) is considered a closed Manitoba base. Portage is considered strictly private nowadays.

I know there the decision is moving forward now. I am still of a mind that it will cost plenty more than $60 million. If I was the hazard a guess right now, I'd say it is going to be in the hundreds of millions and possibly billions of dollars.

Funny you should post right now, I am just having a conversation with a naval officer about this right now. He tells me that what "may" happen is that the navy will sell of the mine sweepers as they cannot mine sweep, not equiped for it, and give the naval reserve the arctic patrol boats. They would be something along the lines of the Swedish Visby class, but with a helo, and capable of operating in "first year ice" he says.

As for bases, Leitrim, NDHQ & Connaught Range are all considered part of CFB Ottawa, lodger units. Kapyong is sadly closed, but it was part of 17Wg which is still open. The move to Shilo was good for the army in that they now have a training range in their back yard. Crappy for a 19 year old on Saturday night:)

Hope alls well in Winnipeg, i will be home mid Oct, can't wait........

[jdobbin]

Funny you should post right now, I am just having a conversation with a naval officer about this right now. He tells me that what "may" happen is that the navy will sell of the mine sweepers as they cannot mine sweep, not equiped for it, and give the naval reserve the arctic patrol boats. They would be something along the lines of the Swedish Visby class, but with a helo, and capable of operating in "first year ice" he says.

As for bases, Leitrim, NDHQ & Connaught Range are all considered part of CFB Ottawa, lodger units. Kapyong is sadly closed, but it was part of 17Wg which is still open. The move to Shilo was good for the army in that they now have a training range in their back yard. Crappy for a 19 year old on Saturday night:)

Hope alls well in Winnipeg, i will be home mid Oct, can't wait........

I have no doubt that the Navy will sell off the minesweepers. I think that the higher-ups were pushing for ice hardened ships instead of breakers so that specifically to replace the patrol boats so they could do Atlantic, Pacific and Arctic duties.

I wasn't aware that these bases were part of CFB Ottawa. I've always considered them separate entities.

I don't have problems with the move to Shilo since they were considering closing both bases and moving the lot to Edmonton. I just wish they'd transfer the land to Canada Lands for dispersal. It has been years and no one can say why it has taken so long. It could be one of the more exciting developments in years in Winnipeg.

Hope all is well with you.