Funding religious schools is bad policy

[scribblet]

If John Tory really is advocating funding for religious schools I disagree with him and wouldn't like to see it. However, as long as we fund the RC schools I don't see how we can refuse other religions. Even the UN said Canada discriminates against other religions by doing this.

Is it possible to stop funding RC schools or is a change in the charter necessary, and what politician has the guts to opent his can of worms.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/is...58-0024572661c9

Ontario Progressive Conservative leader John Tory says he wants to "ensure that students from the widest range of faith and cultural backgrounds are part of public education." Many Ontarians have interpreted this to mean that Mr. Tory would provide public funding for religious schools of all types -- not just Catholic schools, as under the current system.

While the status quo may be flawed, providing more government funding to religious schools would only make matters worse. Such a plan would further ghettoize religious communities -- especially the Muslim community, which is already quite insular.

Conservative Muslims may support Mr. Tory's plan, and downplay differences between Islamic and Canadian values in an attempt to win support for public funding. But step into their schools, and you may be shocked at what they're teaching.

In some Muslim schools, girls must pray behind boys, and segregation based on gender is advocated as a religious duty. This is obviously in conflict with Canadian norms.

Furthermore, Muslim children, like other Canadian children, must be provided a full opportunity to explore their creative talents through instruction in subjects such as music, art, drama and dance --disciplines that are often shunned in Muslim schools due to educators' austere religious outlook.

[M.Dancer]

Funding parochial schools is a BNA right. If they ever do end this marvelous system, I hope it's in 16 years...after my kids have left school.

If they do end it, they better replace it with a grant or a charter system, becasue I will be damned if my kids will go to the secular public system in high school.

[noahbody]

Funding parochial schools is a BNA right. If they ever do end this marvelous system, I hope it's in 16 years...after my kids have left school.

If they do end it, they better replace it with a grant or a charter system, becasue I will be damned if my kids will go to the secular public system in high school.

What do you have against the public system?

[scribblet]

Funding parochial schools is a BNA right. If they ever do end this marvelous system, I hope it's in 16 years...after my kids have left school.

If they do end it, they better replace it with a grant or a charter system, becasue I will be damned if my kids will go to the secular public system in high school.

So you think it's okay to completely fund one religion, but no others?

I admit, if I had the cash I would have sent my kids to a private school, I don't have much love for the public system either.

[M.Dancer]

So you think it's okay to completely fund one religion, but no others?

I admit, if I had the cash I would have sent my kids to a private school, I don't have much love for the public system either.

I think that where numbers allow and providing they adhere to provincial guidelines I see no reason why Leo Beck or Bialeck can't be subsidized.

[Bonam]

Funding religious schools is bad policy

I couldn't agree more. Why should my tax money pay for the indoctrination of children in unfounded and often detrimental beliefs? If people want their kids to learn about religion, they can send them to Church (or the equivalent institution for their religion) or, if they really want to have a religious school, it should be private, payed for 100% by the users.

[M.Dancer]

Why should my tax money pay for the indoctrination of children in unfounded and often detrimental beliefs?

The Greatest Commandment

Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love he Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets

Yikes! Call the deprogrammers!!!

If people want their kids to learn about religion, they can send them to Church (or the equivalent institution for their religion) or, if they really want to have a religious school, it should be private, payed for 100% by the users.

You don't think public schools teach about religion or perhaps you believe children should grow up ignorant of the cornerstone which our society is built on?

If you don't want your taxes going towards religious schools, then I'm sure you wouldn't mind if i withdrew mine form the debacle called the public system.

[sucker punch]

Yikes! Call the deprogrammers!!!

That's a foolish response, and you know it.

You don't think public schools teach about religion or perhaps you believe children should grow up ignorant of the cornerstone which our society is built on?

I think they should teach about religion, not teach religion. There is a difference. The public school system should teach kids about all religions, the same way they teach kids about Greek mythology. Religion has played an important role in our history and current events, so its foolish to completely ignore it. But the beliefs should not be taught as fact, nor should people be taught to use it as a moral compass.

If you don't want your taxes going towards religious schools, then I'm sure you wouldn't mind if i withdrew mine form the debacle called the public system.

[Bonam]

You don't think public schools teach about religion or perhaps you believe children should grow up ignorant of the cornerstone which our society is built on?

Not at all. Religion is an intriguing and important subject, which has played an important role on human history and continues to play an important role in the world today. Like the above poster mentioned, it should definitely be taught about, but it should never be presented as truth, and children most definitely should never be compelled to partake in religious rituals of any sort in a public school. As the above post states, the mythology of Christianity, Islam, or any other religion should be presented in school in the same way as Greek or Roman mythology.

Yikes! Call the deprogrammers!!!

If by that statement you seek to imply that the two commandments you quoted are in fact beneficial rather than harmful, and thus not worthy of "deprogramming", I disagree. Why should I, or anyone else, love "the Lord thy God" with all, or even a small part of, either my heart, soul, or mind, when there is no evidence that this God even exists, and even if he does exist, is more tyrannical than benevolent.

[M.Dancer]

I have a friend who teaches religion for the peel separate school system. He doesn't teach that RC is the only truth. That position is filled by church. The big difference between his approach and that of decaying sysyem is that he teaches that they all might be on to something, that they all pursue the truth.

The atheists on the otherhand don't pursue the truth, they think they have already found it.

[M.Dancer]

As the above post states, the mythology of Christianity, Islam, or any other religion should be presented in school in the same way as Greek or Roman mythology.

You surely can see the difference between a living religion and a historical one?

If by that statement you seek to imply that the two commandments you quoted are in fact beneficial rather than harmful, and thus not worthy of "deprogramming", I disagree. Why should I, or anyone else, love "the Lord thy God" with all, or even a small part of, either my heart, soul, or mind, when there is no evidence that this God even exists, and even if he does exist, is more tyrannical than benevolent.

You feel that loving your neighbour is not beneficial?

[madmax]

John Tory is Wrong!!!

He is behaving like a pandering liberal.

Oh wait, don't the Liberals give money to cricket clubs?

I disagree with Tory, he is wrong to fund religious schools.

I don't trust McGuinty for a second.

One public system is the best direction.

Edited August 12, 2007 by madmax

[fellowtraveller]

The role of the state in education should be to insist that every child is obliged to atttend school, and that the school must teach the minimum prescribed provincial curriculum.

This applies to every school, public or private.

Beyond that, the curriculum may include whatever the community see fit, within the laws of the country including the Charter.

There is a place within public education for everybody, including religious affiliation.

[sucker punch]

You surely can see the difference between a living religion and a historical one?

No. At least, not in this context.

You feel that loving your neighbour is not beneficial?

1. Not if your neighbour is a pedophile.

2. A public school teaching children to be considerate and tolerant of others is fine. A public school teaching children that an invisible man with a beard wants them to be considerate and tolerant of others is out of line.

[Rue]

Scrib I have a predictable position on this. I do npot believe ANY religious school should be funded.

I think the way to fix this is to do away with the Catholic School Board and merge it with the other

public school board and delete any reference to religion.

In regards to religion, all religions should be taught in a neutral curriculum.

It is my strong opinion that if you want to bring your child up as a Christian, Jew, Muslim,

you should not expect public funding-that is your private responsibility.

Giving grants to community centres for after school religious programming if done fairly

is the way to address the issue.

It was absolute discrimination of the worst kind allowing Catholics their own public schools

and everyone knows it.

That said it is nonsense to think the Ontario government can now fund anyone who has a

religion. Where will it end and on what principles of equality will funding be provided?

Do you fund based on population? Do you fund based on whose lobby is more powerful?

There is a time and place for religion and I would contend it does not belong in public institutions

that must remain neutral to everyone and not appear favouring one group over another.

I think asking the government to fund private religious schools is nothing more then government

funding of segregration.

Democracy and segregation do not mix.

[scribblet]

Scrib I have a predictable position on this. I do npot believe ANY religious school should be funded.

I think the way to fix this is to do away with the Catholic School Board and merge it with the other

public school board and delete any reference to religion.

In regards to religion, all religions should be taught in a neutral curriculum.

I agree but I think we are stuck with it because of the BNA act; I'm not sure what it would take to get rid of it. Whatever it would take there's no party with the guts to do it. There are double standard here too, RC teachers can teach in public schools but not vice versa.

[madmax]

The role of the state in education should be to insist that every child is obliged to atttend school, and that the school must teach the minimum prescribed provincial curriculum.

This applies to every school, public or private.

Beyond that, the curriculum may include whatever the community see fit, within the laws of the country including the Charter.

There is a place within public education for everybody, including religious affiliation.

Funding Religious Schools is Bad Policy.

John Tory is wrong, I find nothing Conservative in this vision.

[madmax]

It is my strong opinion that if you want to bring your child up as a Christian, Jew, Muslim,

you should not expect public funding-that is your private responsibility.

That is an opinion that I share.

[M.Dancer]

It is my strong opinion that if you want to bring your child up as a Christian, Jew, Muslim,

you should not expect public funding-that is your private responsibility.

I think the problem with that is twofold.

1) the logical continuation of that arguement is if you want to bring your child up as a secular Atheist/agnostic you should not expect public funding-that is your private responsibility.

2) The catholic/separate school system does not replace the church. You could be an agnostic like me and still want your kids in the separate system because perhaps you reject the ultra PC approach of the public system.

I also want my kids to be in a system that acknowledges their culture. I don't want teachers who are afraid to say what Christmas or Easter is about....I don't want easter turned into march break....or Halloween into a secular boogey night. I don't want the real meaning of christmas to be a 50% off sale at the Gap....

So for those who want the secular approach, fine.....but please don't use my tax dollars to indoctinate my kids.....

[M.Dancer]

RC teachers can teach in public schools but not vice versa.

I don't believe that is correct. I am told by my brother in law who is a prinicpal out in Cambridge that non catholics can teach....

hold on.....

Edited August 13, 2007 by M.Dancer

[M.Dancer]

Doing some quick checking it appears that the requirement to be Catholic varies from board to board with preference given to catholics.

http://www.tcdsb.org/personnel/Teaching%20Position.htm

My friend who teaches in Peel is married to a very nice Jewish woman. Their first child arrived last week.

[sucker punch]

I think the problem with that is twofold.

1) the logical continuation of that arguement is if you want to bring your child up as a secular Atheist/agnostic you should not expect public funding-that is your private responsibility.

2) The catholic/separate school system does not replace the church. You could be an agnostic like me and still want your kids in the separate system because perhaps you reject the ultra PC approach of the public system.

I also want my kids to be in a system that acknowledges their culture. I don't want teachers who are afraid to say what Christmas or Easter is about....I don't want easter turned into march break....or Halloween into a secular boogey night. I don't want the real meaning of christmas to be a 50% off sale at the Gap....

So for those who want the secular approach, fine.....but please don't use my tax dollars to indoctinate my kids.....

Absolutely, I don't want my tax money to go towards that damn Atheist Schoolboard.

The public school system, however, I think should take more of my tax money.

[fellowtraveller]

QUOTE(fellowtraveller @ Aug 12 2007, 12:45 PM)

The role of the state in education should be to insist that every child is obliged to atttend school, and that the school must teach the minimum prescribed provincial curriculum.

This applies to every school, public or private.

Beyond that, the curriculum may include whatever the community see fit, within the laws of the country including the Charter.

There is a place within public education for everybody, including religious affiliation.

Funding Religious Schools is Bad Policy.

John Tory is wrong, I find nothing Conservative in this vision.

First priority of a publicly funded school: teach the prescribed provincial curriculum.

After that, who cares, other than the parents of the kids affected?

My local board offers- to every child- an opportunity to attend schools that focus (after the mandatory curriculum is covered by provincially licensed and qiualified teachers) on ballet, hockey, soccer, military academy, gifted students, several languages and yes- several religions, and many other narrow focuses.

Kids can attend any school they wish anywhere in the school district, with very few constraints. As a result, there are very few private or charter schools. That means that schools that offer special programs are subject to the oversight and control of the public school board. Money does talk.

People who send their kids to schools with a particular focus have one thing in common. They are involved in their kids education, which is very desirable.

[madmax]

My local board offers- to every child- an opportunity to attend schools that focus (after the mandatory curriculum is covered by provincially licensed and qiualified teachers) on ballet, hockey, soccer, military academy, gifted students, several languages and yes- several religions, and many other narrow focuses.

Are you talking about Public or Private education?

Edited August 18, 2007 by madmax

[Higgly]

Religion has no place in state schools. It is time to merge the separate school system into the public school system. Give public school students a semester on the religions of the world. Parents who want anything more should work through their religios institutions.