First the temple, now THIS? *A MUST READ*

[mikedavid00]

You think you heard it all?

You are still in denial that the third world is colonizing to Canada?

You still think everything is hunky-dory?

"You are told the sex (of the baby) immediately."

"Advertisements for ultrasound clinics that appear in Canadian Punjabi newspapers are promoting the abortion of female fetuses, charges the head of an immigrant society in Surrey."

"Andrea Mrozek, of the Institute of Marriage and Family Canada, says a study last year shows an unnatural boy-girl ratio in Surrey where many Lower Mainland Indo-Canadian families live."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/...efoeticide.html

Even I was suprised when I heard this on the CBC today!

(for those who don't know, In India, if you have a boy, the girl who marries you has to pay you a sum of money to your family so they can marry into it.)

What is happening is street trash is coming into Canada who are not here to work and BECAUSE WE ARE THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT DOES NOT HAVE A FC(*&(ING IMMIGRATION POLICY AS I'VE BEEN SAYING OVER AND OVER AGAIN FOR 2 YEARS NOW!

Come on Guyser, even you have to admit this has gone too far.

[guyser]

What is happening is street trash is coming into Canada who are not here to work and BECAUSE WE ARE THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT DOES NOT HAVE A FC(*&(ING IMMIGRATION POLICY AS I'VE BEEN SAYING OVER AND OVER AGAIN FOR 2 YEARS NOW!

Come on Guyser, even you have to admit this has gone too far.

No not really. But before you roll your eyes, read on.

1) No mention of "street trash" in the article, and apparently a prudent person would think "street trash" as you so eloquently put it , would not have the means to pay for this. But then again, you do like to project your biases. ...or bigotry.

2 ) The ratios as specified in the paper , while they may suggest a problem, are not far off for me to worry about. 100 girls to 108 boys ? Hell , in Alaska it is a lot more varied than that, although the other way around.

3 ) No one, including the woman who was quoted can confirm that abortions are taking place as a result.I have no qualms that they likely are.

4 ) Any doctors office doing ultrasounds, anywhere in this country (wait I think somewhere in Maritimes they dont) can tell you the sex of your baby.

People have abortions all the time for every reason under the sun.

Do I really care why ? NO, not at all. That is a woman and her partners private response to the situation.

Encourage full term preganancy , absolutely , mandate it one way or another . Nope, no can do.

Good try, but cant agree with you.

Edited August 3, 2007 by guyser

[Leafless]

Seven thousand girls die from sex selected abortion in India EVERYDAY including murdering baby girls at birth.

Although guyser does not think 100 girls to 108 is any kind of problem, he as usual is totally wrong.

This is not to far off from the ratio in India which is 93 women to every 100 men.

This does not seem like much considering the fact, but the horrible number of more than 16-million baby girls die each year in India indeed shows the magnitude of barbaric problem.

Why we allow people like this into our civilized country to practise their cultural barbaric religious practices is shameful and only adds to the many cultural problems relating to 'official multiculturalism'.

Maybe that is part of 'official multiculturalism' plan, Canada itself becoming a third world country, host to all citizens of the world. Trudeau would be blushing with pride if he was still around.

7,000 Unborn Girls Die From Sex-Selection Abortion Daily in India

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/dec/06121401.html

India Killing Girls

http://bellsouthpwp.net/m/a/maryb683/marybrown/india.htm

[guyser]

Seven thousand girls die from sex selected abortion in India EVERYDAY including murdering baby girls at birth.

Although guyser does not think 100 girls to 108 is any kind of problem, he as usual is totally wrong.

Abortion is legal in this country. How am I wrong?

Why we allow people like this into our civilized country to practise their cultural barbaric religious practices is shameful and only adds to the many cultural problems relating to 'official multiculturalism'.

Jeebus , do you Einstiens stop and think ? Abortions occur in this country all the time. Heck, even White Christians have abortions. Are you calling your redneck brethren cultural barbarics? I guess so.

And besides, it is more cultural than religious.

[Leafless]

And besides, it is more cultural than religious.

Religion is a component of cuture.

If you say sex-selection abortions is cultural, then that barbaric culture is not recognized in Canada as being associated with the national interest of Canada.

In India it is not only sex-selected abortion it is outright MURDER of baby girls.

So if abortion was outlawed in Canada it would be fair to assume the murdering of baby girls would be the norm relating to the ongoing cultural practices of Indian couples in B.C.

[Canuck E Stan]

Got to agree with Guyser on this one.

I don't like what I'm reading,but abortions are legal and I don't see anywhere where there is a distinction of a reason for a woman from getting one.

It is a matter for a woman to decide and if a person has an issue with it,.....well,too bad.

It's legal.Culture and religion may play a part, but sorry,not your fetus to make or abort, the law is on the side of the woman's decision.

If you have issues with abortions then you should have issues with all abortions and not just these.

[geoffrey]

So the Indian women are aborting to avoid Dowery's and the white women are aborting because deadbeat daddy ran off or she decided she was too cool to take the pill.

I'm going to take the side of the 'uncivilized hooligan immigrants' on this one.

Both are wrong and ridiculous. But to suggest that this is more barbaric than the reasoning western people have for abortion... nah.

[Renegade]

The real issue is this case is whether a woman is free to abort the fetus regardless of the reason for the abortion. In this case the reason is economic.

Mikedavid, you are trying to incite racism and prejudice by making this an "immigrant" issue. It is not.

In my view, her body, her choice for whatever her reasons are.

It is an interesting question on if society should even intefere to prevent gender (or any genetic) selection.

Edited August 3, 2007 by Renegade

[Argus]

So the Indian women are aborting to avoid Dowery's and the white women are aborting because deadbeat daddy ran off or she decided she was too cool to take the pill.

I'm going to take the side of the 'uncivilized hooligan immigrants' on this one.

Both are wrong and ridiculous. But to suggest that this is more barbaric than the reasoning western people have for abortion... nah.

I think what you are all leaving out of the equation is that this is an indication of the lack of value this culture places on females. It is not simply a dowry issue. It is that women are not considered to be real people.

BTW, aborting baby girls has become such a problem in India that gender selection abortion is illegal now, and China has been at it so long there are now serious cultural problems there with tens of millions of young men who will never find a wife because of the gender imbalance. That has led to growing increases in rape and "bride kidnapping".

[Renegade]

I think what you are all leaving out of the equation is that this is an indication of the lack of value this culture places on females. It is not simply a dowry issue. It is that women are not considered to be real people.

BTW, aborting baby girls has become such a problem in India that gender selection abortion is illegal now, and China has been at it so long there are now serious cultural problems there with tens of millions of young men who will never find a wife because of the gender imbalance. That has led to growing increases in rape and "bride kidnapping".

You are right that many cultures have an absymal attitude towards the value of women. The question is what intervention if any should be imposed.

[Drea]

It's not just immigrants who want to know the gender of their fetus. My neice knows she is having a girl, my tenant knew she was having a boy. They tell them nowadays.

Both kept the babies but that didn't have any bearing on the fact that they were told the gender right off the bat, they could've used the information to abort if they had wanted to.

Back when I was pregnant in the early 90's the ultrasound operator was not allowed to tell me the gender. She gave me a hint though -- she said "its got a masculine face" , like a baby can look masculine! LOL

[Pliny]

So the Indian women are aborting to avoid Dowery's and the white women are aborting because deadbeat daddy ran off or she decided she was too cool to take the pill.

I'm going to take the side of the 'uncivilized hooligan immigrants' on this one.

Both are wrong and ridiculous. But to suggest that this is more barbaric than the reasoning western people have for abortion... nah.

I think what you are all leaving out of the equation is that this is an indication of the lack of value this culture places on females. It is not simply a dowry issue. It is that women are not considered to be real people.

BTW, aborting baby girls has become such a problem in India that gender selection abortion is illegal now, and China has been at it so long there are now serious cultural problems there with tens of millions of young men who will never find a wife because of the gender imbalance. That has led to growing increases in rape and "bride kidnapping".

This is the crux of the matter. Is it the choice of the woman to have an abortion on the basis of gender?

Time is the problem, perhaps. There was a time when it was a survival practice to kill the first born if it were female as the Eskimos did. That is no longer an applicable reality and so the practice should be dropped.

Customs, rites and rituals must be adapted with the times and not remain sacred. Adhering to outdated traditions is not conducive to the survival of a group but then again changing the traditions and thus the culture is not a continuance of the same thing. The truth is some things have to be allowed to die.

[Bonam]

This is the crux of the matter. Is it the choice of the woman to have an abortion on the basis of gender?

How is an abortion clinic supposed to know for what reason a couple is having an abortion? Should they simply take them on their word as to the reason? Should they be automatically suspicious of anyone Indian that's aborting a female child, but let abortions of male children go unobstructed? Should there be a big federally financed court battle with witnesses from the woman's friends and family testifying as to what reasons she or her husband may have mentioned in a conversation for wanting the abortion? It would get crazy pretty fast.

I would contend that if abortion is allowed in general, then realistically, you can't stop people from aborting a child for whatever reason they want.

If anything, perhaps it's the custom of paying a dowry that should be looked at, if it is causing a serious demographic problem.

[M.Dancer]

"Advertisements for ultrasound clinics that appear in Canadian Punjabi newspapers are promoting the abortion of female fetuses, charges the head of an immigrant society in Surrey."

So the immigrants are against the practice.

Move on.......nothing to see here

[geoffrey]

It is that women are not considered to be real people.

You sure?

India seemed to beat most of the West to this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indira_Gandhi

We only gave women the vote 40 years before this and still have never elected one to the office...

[Canuck E Stan]

You are right that many cultures have an absymal attitude towards the value of women. The question is what intervention if any should be imposed.

And Canadian culture(white/western) is another culture that has this dismal attitude about the value of women.

Many Canadians(Jack Layton types)who are all for women's rights here in this country but don't want to sacrifice our troops for women who don't have any rights in Afghanistan.

And with the same mentality,seem to have little regard to what would happen to these women if the Taliban were to take control.

[Renegade]

And Canadian culture(white/western) is another culture that has this dismal attitude about the value of women.

Many Canadians(Jack Layton types)who are all for women's rights here in this country but don't want to sacrifice our troops for women who don't have any rights in Afghanistan.

And with the same mentality,seem to have little regard to what would happen to these women if the Taliban were to take control.

I agree that western culture has not had a clean history on its attitude toward women, however, you seem to imply that the troops are in Afghanistan are there to promote women's rights. This is clearly false. Western countries troops are in Afghanstan for their own self-interest and any other consideration is secondary.

[mikedavid00]

I think what you are all leaving out of the equation is that this is an indication of the lack of value this culture places on females. It is not simply a dowry issue. It is that women are not considered to be real people.

BTW, aborting baby girls has become such a problem in India that gender selection abortion is illegal now, and China has been at it so long there are now serious cultural problems there with tens of millions of young men who will never find a wife because of the gender imbalance. That has led to growing increases in rape and "bride kidnapping".

I agree.

I love the way everyone turns this into an abortion issue.

Argus, naturally, proves supriour over most of the posters understanding the real issues at hand.

There are 2 issues:

1 - The disregard of having a baby based of its gender.

2 - The fact that probelms specific to other countries are now becoming problems here.

People in India who bury bubies becuase of their gender are the lower class trash of the country. People in Jamaica who murder are the lower class trash of the country.

We have both in Canada now and we are suffering the consequences.

These issues are not a problem in the US but are present here. Now we have to ask ourselves why this is.

But we all know the answer already.

[Canuck E Stan]

I agree that western culture has not had a clean history on its attitude toward women, however, you seem to imply that the troops are in Afghanistan are there to promote women's rights. This is clearly false. Western countries troops are in Afghanstan for their own self-interest and any other consideration is secondary.

So to you, women are considered secondary?

[mikedavid00]

You are right that many cultures have an absymal attitude towards the value of women. The question is what intervention if any should be imposed.

(did someone fix the quoting?)

There should be an intervention imposed. It has to do with letting people come to Canada only when there is a job lined up for them.

What is happening now is family sponsorship and basically anyone coming here.

Killing babies is illegal in India and has been for some time. But it is still done. It is done mostly by the poor, illiterate families who don't want to pay dowry.

I'm suggesting that these very same people are now in Canada. Too many people over too many years.

The question must be begged why this is not a problem anywhere else in the world but here?

The reason is becuase we now have ethnic settlements in Canada. These are not enclaves, these are not ghettos, these are settlements.

70% of people coming are sponsored in by family. Those who are sponsored in will then responsor and the cycle continues until you reach the lowest denominator.

We are now reaching the lowest denominators and killings of babies based of gender is happenning.

One thing we *can* say for sure is that these people, althrough very socially conservative and anti-tax, support the Liberal Party Of Canada because it is that party which set up this system and let them get away with what they have all these years.

It's a nice trade off, these people keep a corrupt party in the commons, while in exchange, they continue to bring over their relatives and continue their cycle.

Now, our gov't has to pander to these people or they will not get enough votes to win a majority gov't which is why the cycle is continuing.

The cycle continues like this becuase we have a Parlementary system which is not fitting for Canada.

Eventually, our system will lead minorities to into majorities and our Canada will crumble while other parts of the world soars in prosparity.

Canada will be desperate and will sell of portions of it's land to other countries where they will become territories. All the execuses of trade and BS will be there.

And what territories will become India? Ah yes,

The same territorry where people are looking to get ultrasounds faster so they can kill their female fetus.

[AngusThermopyle]

It's true that this isn't so much an abortion issue as it is a cultural issue.Not that I believe abortion is a good thing, admittedly under certain rare circumstances abortion can be used, not so much in a positive way as more of a "lesser of two evils" sort of way.

The cultural attitudes and mores that promote selective abortion based on gender are reprehensible to say the least. It's only my opinion but such attitudes would appear to indicate a certain ignorance on the behalf of the practitioners. I most certainly can not in all good conscience find a reasonable justification for such a practice.

I once heard a strategic analyst stating that in all likelihood the next major war the Chinese might engage in would probably be fought over women. this does make a certain amount of sense. They now have a huge gap between the ratio of women to men. That would be due to the barbaric practice of murdering baby girls coupled with the "one child" law. A nation of men with no women, doesn't seem to bode well for the near future does it.

[mikedavid00]

If anything, perhaps it's the custom of paying a dowry that should be looked at, if it is causing a serious demographic problem.

Oh here we go with the Lin stuff.

It's the obortion clinics fault, it's the dowrys faul, but it's not the fault of the people dont it.

And social engineering doesn't work on immigrants by the way. It works on dumb Canadian muggles and Liberals, but not immigrants. They don't give a damn what we have to say. (as you know who on the forum has displayed many times)

The fact is, dowry has been outlawed in india for YEARS. I'm talking 30 years. Killing babies has been outlawed for YEARS. The cast system has been outlawed for YEARS. But the culture is WAY stronger than the laws they pass.

The Sikh's are supposed to be anti-cast system. It's the basis of their religion.. well.. one of them. And the *worst* culprits of the cast system and arranged marriages are the Sikhs.

Sikh's are supposed to be vegetarian. They are known for eating meat.

Sikh's are not supposed to drink. They are known to be the drunkards of India.

The people will eventually decide their own culture and what they want to do.

I'm suggesting we keep that off our soil.

We do not need to throw money at it, we do not need to study it, and we CERTAINLY don't need to try to 'educate' them.

Let india handle that.

What we need is 'if you do not have an employer sponsoring you into Canada, you need not apply'. That's what should now be on our Citizenship and Immigration website.

Then you'll see about 20,000 laborers coming in each year from Mexico, Brasil, Potrigaul, and these problems that we're talking about now will be a thing of the past. This is is how you solve this problem.

[mikedavid00]

You sure?

India seemed to beat most of the West to this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indira_Gandhi

We only gave women the vote 40 years before this and still have never elected one to the office...

You become more Liberal each day.

Good vote in your party and when you get laid off in Calgary becuase they are stopping the discovery in the oil sands, and you have to get hired for less doing accounting grunt work,

THEN maybe you'll get more conservative in your view points.

Dont' try to prop India up like it's so great. You think your co-workers are all cultured and cool..

you know what, i just want Canada to land every immigrant that we get re-uniting with their family over there in Calgary. You will see the city change in 1 year when 200,000 people flood into that tiny city.

[FascistLibertarian]

Wow

I cant belive the ignorance of some of the people here

not suprised though

If this issue really bugs you then write everyone you know and start a movement to pass a law so you cant know the sex of the kid until it is born

That is a good solution, but no one here will do this, because they would rather complain about immigrants than doing something

Happens in Korea already

I would like to note that none of you bigots gave any facts, just your rhetoric and oppinions, for an issue like that this is not good enough

[geoffrey]

You become more Liberal each day.

Nah, I'm just not an irrational fanatic.

Good vote in your party and when you get laid off in Calgary becuase they are stopping the discovery in the oil sands, and you have to get hired for less doing accounting grunt work,

I don't work in oil and gas... actually, I work with nothing to do with oil and gas. I have found a sweet niche market that's going to be undeniably in high demand for the next 100 years around the world. I have no fear of an immigrant because I took steps to make myself more valuable to employers.

Those that choose to be less valuable than an immigrant will likely be replaced, as they should. I'll always hire the more qualified person, regardless of the place they were born. It really is irrelevant.

you know what, i just want Canada to land every immigrant that we get re-uniting with their family over there in Calgary. You will see the city change in 1 year when 200,000 people flood into that tiny city.

Nah, we have enough trash moving in from elsewhere in Canada expecting a free ride on an easy job. Turns out you still have to work out here.

Generally, the immigrants hold higher places in companies and in society than the remenants of the Ontario and Maritime labour market moving west.

--

A country that views women as non-people (which India is not), does not elect a female PM just years after all women in Canada could vote.