Islam Can Be Constructive and Not Violent

[ScottSA]

And that joke about Canadians not speaking English is really old. Time for some new material.

What is Dion speaking then?

It's "special English." Similar to pidgin English, but with its roots in France instead of Asia, special English is a combination of three Gallic traits and mannerisms: handwringing, emotion, and a readiness to flee in terror; coupled with abject illiteracy. In Dion's case, he speaks a dialect known as "enviro-special English," in which variations of the word "environment" are butchered and dragged behind poutine trucks.

[Black Dog]

One wouldn't, which is why we ought to stop immigration, since such mingling is not occuring.

Of course, stopping immigration also presents a host of problems in a country with sub-replacement level birthrates, but I'm sure you have a plan for that as well...

Oh, and I had quite a few dusky neighbours when I lived in New Delhi, so you can stuff your lilly white liberal chortling.

Some of your "best friends" no doubt.

What is Dion speaking then?

Heavily accented English. Honestly, jbg, given your nation's contribution to the mangling of the language (in particular, the tendancy to truncate words uneccesarily, to the point where they are divorced from their actual meaning ie. "donut," "tonite") I'm surprised you continue to flog that line. But, as your tenure on this forum has shown, constant repetition is your forté (or, as you Americans would say, "fort").

[Rue]

This article, in today's Journal News, a Westchester County, New York paper (link to article) emphasizes that Islam can function as just another religion, blend into and play a constructive role in the community. There are several points worth noting. One is the interest in being part of the local community, not being apart from it. Another is the unequivocal rejection of terror, not one couched in saying "Israel does it also". Another is the abjuring from the Sunni=Shi'ite schism.

This seems to be a model for Muslim development in the West. It depends, however, on integration, as opposed to multiculturalism.

Excerpts below:

Muslims look to plant roots in northern Westchester

By GARY STERN AND ELIZABETH GANGA

THE JOURNAL NEWS

(Original publication: July 23, 2007)

NEW CASTLE - It was 10 years ago that a group of highly educated, affluent Muslims who had been drawn to the comfortable lifestyle and top-ranked schools of northern Westchester began to pursue a vision of a new community.

*****

Dr. Saleem Mir, 64, of Cortlandt, a former chairman of the Westchester Muslim Center in Mount Vernon, said the newer group's many American-born professionals are well-suited to help develop a new type of American Muslim mosque that can connect with the larger community.

Members of the UWMS already take part in several interfaith groups.

**********

Rabbi Joshua Davidson, president of the Chappaqua Interfaith Council, which includes the UWMS, said there was nothing unusual about the mosque's goals.

"They want the same things for their families that we want for ours," said Davidson, who leads Temple Beth El of Northern Westchester in Chappaqua.

***********

Most worshippers who come to the mosque are Sunni Muslims. But the Sunni-Shiite split that is so important in Iraq and much of the Muslim world is largely meaningless to a multiethnic, American start-up mosque.

"We try not to make any distinctions between sects," said Anees Shaikh, 35, of Yorktown, vice president of the society and an IBM employee.

*************

The UWMS released a statement July 6 condemning the attempted terrorist bombings in England. It read, in part: "We, along with the vast majority of Muslims, view those who commit terror crimes in the name of religion as only trying to hijack religion and destroy the goodness of the human race."

*********

Ali wanted to make the point that American Muslims do not obsess over international events, as others might think.

"I'm always answering questions about violence and religion," he said. "I spend much less than 1 percent of my time thinking about these things. Growing up in Chappaqua, I saw buses taking kids to Catholic school and Temple Beth El. That's the goal, to have what those kids have."

**********

Upper Westchester Muslim Society members say they moved to northern Westchester for the same reasons as the mosque's new neighbors and want to protect the town's character. They only want what other religious groups already have, they say.

I commend you JBG for this post and you know why I do. By the way don't let my sometiems debates with you fool you. You know I know maybe I argue a certain point with you because I probably deep down inside fear you are right. Let's leave this coded inter-Zionist conspiratorial complement at that.

[jillwith3]

I usually avoid these topics because they tend to rip open sores even further...the sores being 'immigration' and 'multiculturalism'. While I am very tolerant of other ethnic groups and have friends that have immigrated to Canada from various Asian and European nations, I am not so tolerant when it comes to Canada or Canadians having to adapt or change our customs and policies to suit these other groups. I am a sixth generation Irishwoman and a third generation Belgian born here in Canada. Am I proud of my country? You bet! Has my family or myself ever demanded that our traditions and beliefs be pursued by other Canadians? No. Do we celebrate Irish customs or Belgian customs outside of our own homes? No. What angers me and so many of my fellow friends (we've talked at length about this) is that many ethnic cultures insist that their customs be allowed here in Canada and the changes are allowed because to do otherwise would be 'racist' or 'judgemental'. When the Muslim wanted to wear a turban when he joined the RCMP, he was allowed to do so even though it is not an official part of the uniform. When the teenager wanted to wear his ceremonial sword to high-school even though it is against the law to bring weapons to school, he could because of his religion. IT IS NOT ALL RIGHT!! I am all for teaching different religious holidays at Christmas because the students do learn a lot about other cultures and their celebrations, but at the same time, we are supposed to ignore the Christian Christmas for fear of offending other ethnic groups. What about the Lord's Prayer in all schools? Once again, the fear of offending someone. Where will all this end? We have become so sensitive to others' traditions and customs that we are slowly giving up our own. I'm sorry, but if you come to Canada, you become a Canadian! I don't consider myself an Irish-Canadian or a Belgian-Canadian, but a CANADIAN! I'm sure some will snap at me...I don't mean to offend...it's just the way I feel about 'multiculturism' and 'immigration'.

[jbg]

Heavily accented English. Honestly, jbg, given your nation's contribution to the mangling of the language (in particular, the tendancy to truncate words uneccesarily, to the point where they are divorced from their actual meaning ie. "donut," "tonite") I'm surprised you continue to flog that line. But, as your tenure on this forum has shown, constant repetition is your forté (or, as you Americans would say, "fort").

What is "donut" a truncated form of? And do you say "har-bower" or "har-boor"? Q.E.D.

[jbg]

I commend you JBG for this post and you know why I do. By the way don't let my sometiems debates with you fool you. You know I know maybe I argue a certain point with you because I probably deep down inside fear you are right. Let's leave this coded inter-Zionist conspiratorial complement at that.

Thank you.

What I'd like to see is the rest of the "non-ummah" (can't think of the "Dar - ____" at the moment) be an escape valve for the many Muslims who simply want a way out of the Dark Ages. There are, no doubt, many who want for themselves and their families the same things that you and I do.

To encourage the development of segregated clusters means bringing to the U.S. and Canada the hatred, feuds and fighting of the parts of the world they are supposedly rejecting and fleeing.

It should be simple; if we can live with them, they can live with us. If they can't live with us, we cannot live with them.

[Melanie_]

Welcome to the forum, Jillwith3.

First, let me point out that it was a Sikh, not a Muslim, who won the right to wear his turban as part of the RCMP uniform. Wearing the turban is required of all practicing Sikhs, and it makes no difference in the way he does his job, so I don't see any harm in it.

I agree with you that when you come to Canada you become a Canadian, but that doesn't mean you have to become a Christian. Christian traditions can be followed by anyone who chooses, but they shouldn't be imposed on those who belong to other religions, or on those who choose not to follow any religion at all. Here's an older thread on the topic of prayer in schools...

Prayer in schools?

[guyser]

Do we celebrate Irish customs or Belgian customs outside of our own homes? No. What angers me and so many of my fellow friends (we've talked at length about this) is that many ethnic cultures insist that their customs be allowed here in Canada and the changes are allowed because to do otherwise would be 'racist' or 'judgemental'.

Thus country allows for ethnic cultures to be practised that do not violate the laws of Canada. Ethnics do not "insist that their customs" be allowed , and to take the opposite tact, it would mean we throw out what we have, and that is not the case.

And not to put too fine a point on it, but can you tell me what country or ethnicity is...Robbie Burns Day.....St Patricks Day? So , in fact whether you participate or not,we do celebrate Irish customs in this country. And it would be a poorer country if we did not celebrate these things.

When the Muslim wanted to wear a turban when he joined the RCMP, he was allowed to do so even though it is not an official part of the uniform. When the teenager wanted to wear his ceremonial sword to high-school even though it is against the law to bring weapons to school, he could because of his religion. IT IS NOT ALL RIGHT!! I am all for teaching different religious holidays at Christmas because the students do learn a lot about other cultures and their celebrations, but at the same time, we are supposed to ignore the Christian Christmas for fear of offending other ethnic groups. What about the Lord's Prayer in all schools?

It was a Sikh (minor correction) , and it is his duty to his religion to wear the turban. If what he wanted violated CDN law, then it would not have been approved.

The official part of the uniform is not the scarlet coat and baggy pants. That is the ceremonial dress. Look at the RCMP at the airport. They look like normal rent-a-cops , and putting a turban on one is no different than some wearing long sleeves and some in short sleeves.

Dont believe the hype about christmas. It is still there and celebrated. A majority of canucks celebrate it. I like your idea about teaching religion in schools , as it enlightens the populace to what is out there and removes the stigmas that ignorant parents put into their kids. What about the lords prayer, I dont want it in schools as it has no place, unless of course we are teaching about it, not just reciting it. I would tell my kids to just sit there and be quiet , you do not have to recite it.

All people pay taxes and school levies, not just christians.And our schools have a hard enough time teaching, so lose the religion indoctrination and teach the kids more math or geography.

Edit to add: Yes, welcome to the forum.

Edited July 27, 2007 by guyser

[Black Dog]

What is "donut" a truncated form of?

Doughnut. A tasty treat made from (wait for it) dough. But enough of that partticular line of discussion: I don't want to encourage you any further.

Moving on...

While I am very tolerant of other ethnic groups and have friends that have immigrated to Canada from various Asian and European nations, I am not so tolerant when it comes to Canada or Canadians having to adapt or change our customs and policies to suit these other groups.

See, here's what I don't get. Yes there's the odd example of some policies being changed to be more accomodating of other cultures. But I have to wonder how many of these changes go beyond the superficial. I could give a rat's ass about what the guy writing my speeding ticket is wearing on his head. I guess I don't see much damage in multicultralism's promotion of what kimmy would call "wacky dancing and silly hats," and I've seen little toi suggest it's affects have gone much beyond that.

I am all for teaching different religious holidays at Christmas because the students do learn a lot about other cultures and their celebrations, but at the same time, we are supposed to ignore the Christian Christmas for fear of offending other ethnic groups.

I'd like to see Saturnalia being promoted a bit more, being so much closer to the contemporary Christmas...

We have become so sensitive to others' traditions and customs that we are slowly giving up our own.

Again: how does, to use your example, the Sikh headress on the RCMP uniform take anything away from our culture? It's not like everyone has to wear it.

What about the Lord's Prayer in all schools?

What about it? Want the L.P., send your kids to Catholic school. Want prayer in public schools? Well that's a can of worms best left unopened.

[Moxie]

Welcome to the forum, Jillwith3.

First, let me point out that it was a Sikh, not a Muslim, who won the right to wear his turban as part of the RCMP uniform. Wearing the turban is required of all practicing Sikhs, and it makes no difference in the way he does his job, so I don't see any harm in it.

I agree with you that when you come to Canada you become a Canadian, but that doesn't mean you have to become a Christian. Christian traditions can be followed by anyone who chooses, but they shouldn't be imposed on those who belong to other religions, or on those who choose not to follow any religion at all. Here's an older thread on the topic of prayer in schools...

Prayer in schools?

Well Melanie that in a nut shell is what the majority in Canada are angry about, Canada's roots are Christian Culture and those of us who cherish it become rather angry that non-christians feel the need to expell it from our culture. I'm not sorry for being proud of my CULTURE, Christmas is a tradition in Canada as is Easter and other holidays and I for one shall scream from the roof tops every year when the Snot and Bawlers try and rewrite our Canadian Traditions. Many people enjoy our Christmas Season as a special Holiday but they aren't worshiping Christians. It was the liberal left/left that start culling our holidays to rid us of our culture. It was and is an attack on Canadian Culture, no one is forced to partake of our holidays. Christmas pagents are also part of our culture not Holiday or Seasonal Plays Christmas Pagents. The left can rename every single important cultural event in Canada but it's not going to change the fact that it's deeply rooted in the majority of Canadians' Culture. Another failure of the socialist left to cull our culture under the guise of offending who exactly? We are suppose to be a cough choke gag a democracy so why are the minority groups being pandered to. I don't give a flying fig if some god hating witch doesn't like Christmas or Easter when these hags become a majority I'll have to swollow their venom. Until then power to the people, until the left/left win which they are at the moment.

[guyser]

Well Melanie that in a nut shell is what the majority in Canada are angry about, Canada's roots are Christian Culture and those of us who cherish it become rather angry that non-christians feel the need to expell it from our culture. I'm not sorry for being proud of my CULTURE, Christmas is a tradition in Canada as is Easter and other holidays and I for one shall scream from the roof tops every year when the Snot and Bawlers try and rewrite our Canadian Traditions. Many people enjoy our Christmas Season as a special Holiday but they aren't worshiping Christians. It was the liberal left/left that start culling our holidays to rid us of our culture. It was and is an attack on Canadian Culture, no one is forced to partake of our holidays. Christmas pagents are also part of our culture not Holiday or Seasonal Plays Christmas Pagents.

Majority?

Was Christmas cancelled last year..?..the year before that...?...how about ever? That answer is no. So what has been expelled from our culture exactly?

What has been "culled" with respect to our holidays ?

The amount of handwringing about Christmas being shelved, our customs being shunted aside and replaced by some ethnic party, our culture being overtaken are all simple falsehoods.

What is being espoused is for our govt to mandate that people worship God (Lords prayer & Christmas) that govt not make any attempt to recognize the input of our immigrant (as if we charge them less on taxes etc) but just take their money and shut up about it.

Fear.

Fear of the unknown I guess.

[Melanie_]

Well, Moxie, no one can doubt your passion or conviction. I have no problem with Christmas, Easter, etc. I celebrate them (secularly) in my home every year, and many friends of mine who are not Christian also have no real issue with them. When other people celebrate their own traditions and holidays, that doesn't expel Christian traditions from Canadian society. There is room in Canadian culture for other traditions as well - everyone doesn't have to partake in them, but those who do are no less Canadian than those who celebrate Christmas.

[jbg]

What angers me and so many of my fellow friends (we've talked at length about this) is that many ethnic cultures insist that their customs be allowed here in Canada and the changes are allowed because to do otherwise would be 'racist' or 'judgemental'. When the Muslim wanted to wear a turban when he joined the RCMP, he was allowed to do so even though it is not an official part of the uniform. When the teenager wanted to wear his ceremonial sword to high-school even though it is against the law to bring weapons to school, he could because of his religion.

Me too. One song that is making the rounds in the U.S. is a country song called "Press One for English". Lyrics below (link to lyrics):

PRESS ONE FOR ENGLISH

Hey, I can't read that sign out there

Please tell me what's it say

We have to have subtitles

In five languages these days

Now we don't ask too much

To share this land of liberties

But if it's not too much to ask

Could you please speak English

(Chorus)

English is my language

It's the language of this land

And every sign that's posted here

I should understand

I do not live in China, Mexico

No foreign place

And English is the language

Of the United States

Now I'll speak very clear for you

So there'll be no mistake

My family fought and died

Protecting freedoms in these states

Now we all welcome those who come

But when you reach our shores

Folks you should speak our language

Not the one you spoke before

(Repeat chorus)

Now I'm proud of this country

And this great Democracy

And I believe an open door

Should be our policy

But for these opportunities

We'd simply ask you this

Hey you're the one who chose to come

Now choose to speak English

Now here's one thing I question

And try to understand

Hey why must I press one for English

When it's the language of this land

(Repeat chorus)

I do not live in China, Mexico,

No foreign place

And English is the language

Of these United States

IT IS NOT ALL RIGHT!! I am all for teaching different religious holidays at Christmas because the students do learn a lot about other cultures and their celebrations, but at the same time, we are supposed to ignore the Christian Christmas for fear of offending other ethnic groups.

As much as I am "all for teaching" about different cultures, there are limits.

I am American. I was at a Great Big Sea concert in New York City in April 2006, and I met two Peterborough, ON teachers who did not know who Montcalm and Wolfe were. Even a reference to "Plains of Abraham" didn't help them. G-d only knows what they are "teaching" if a Yank, who really doesn't know much about Canada, knows more than they do. Canada is tolerating the more or less deliberate erasure of their own culture, traditions and history. It is sad.

I don't consider myself an Irish-Canadian or a Belgian-Canadian, but a CANADIAN! I'm sure some will snap at me...I don't mean to offend...it's just the way I feel about 'multiculturism' and 'immigration'.

Well I'm snapping at you. I'm NOT a Canadian. Edited July 27, 2007 by jbg

[jillwith3]

Thanks for the welcome! I knew I would open up a can of worms LOL! I am not against learning about other cultures and traditions that go with that particular culture, but when other ethnics groups come in and demand things change to suit their needs, then yes, I am unhappy about that. Nobody commented on the ceremonial dagger situation, which surprised me. I suppose it is because the reasoning behind it is the same as the RCMP officer. Sorry mixing up Muslim with Sikh in the RCMP. And no I don't really care whether I get pulled over by a guy wearing a turban or not...it's that the rules had to bend to suit one person, regardless of his/her religion that bothers me. I don't find that a valid reason. I'm a Catholic, but that doesn't mean that I follow every doctrine of the church. I guess I am not as devout! As for prayer in school, I never asked that it make a comeback, but it is just one thing that has changed since we became 'multicultural' for fear of offending others(and my kids do attend a Catholic school). As for being part Irish, I don't recall any Irish immigrants coming to Canada and demanded change to benefit them, at least in recent years. When my great-grandparents immigrated from Belgium, they learned how to speak English, went to English speaking school and followed the Canadian laws. They were, however, Christian so they blended in that way. But they didn't go out there and demand Belgian schools and sing the Belgian national athem when the Canadian national athem is sung. Like I've said before, there is nothing wrong with celebrating and learning about other cultures, but it is always at the expense of our own. We focus so much on teaching about other celebrations, like Kwanzaa, etc., that we spend very little time on our own or not at all, all in the name of 'multiculuralism'. I'm glad I still live in rural Ontario where Canadian traditions and holidays, such as Halloween, Christmas and Easter, can still bring a thrill to my own kids without offending anyone. And I'm not saying these holidays are not celebrated in cities. I've taught in London, ON and in the public school system, these holidays were a big NO-NO. What about the students of Christian background? Aren't these students being deprived, at least educationally, to celebrate traditons and holidays that have been celebrated in Canada for years? Running off on a tangent here and going to end...for the moment! jbq~ I can't believe those teachers didn't know that! Actually, I have a minor in history so I know exactly whom and where you're talking about! Heck, I even know a little about a certain U. Grant and General Robert E. Lee! LOL!

[Black Dog]

Well Melanie that in a nut shell is what the majority in Canada are angry about, Canada's roots are Christian Culture and those of us who cherish it become rather angry that non-christians feel the need to expell it from our culture.

The majority of Candians? The percentage of Candians who self-identify as Christian has been declining sharply for a long time. The percentage of those who are actually religious (for example, by attending church services) is an even smaller number. And of those I expect the percentage who are angry about th edecline of Christian culture is smaller still. So majority? Not even close.

As to the rest: wot guyser said.

I am American. I was at a Great Big Sea concert in New York City in April 2006, and I met two Peterborough, ON teachers who did not know who Montcalm and Wolfe were. Even a reference to "Plains of Abraham" didn't help them. G-d only knows what they are "teaching" if a Yank, who really doesn't know much about Canada, knows more than they do. Canada is tolerating the more or less deliberate erasure of their own culture, traditions and history. It is sad.

I wonder how Yanks (even teachers would do on a similar quiz. I reckon not well. IOW, your anecdote is worthless.

I am not against learning about other cultures and traditions that go with that particular culture, but when other ethnics groups come in and demand things change to suit their needs, then yes, I am unhappy about that.

Again: to me, there's a distinction between steps to accomodate new Candians and altering '"our" culture to suit them. Most of what people here are complaining about is in the former category. I've seen little evidence of the latter.

As for prayer in school, I never asked that it make a comeback, but it is just one thing that has changed since we became 'multicultural' for fear of offending others(and my kids do attend a Catholic school).

And so what? Are we to remain mired in the past regardless of social changes around us?

for being part Irish, I don't recall any Irish immigrants coming to Canada and demanded change to benefit them, at least in recent years. When my great-grandparents immigrated from Belgium, they learned how to speak English, went to English speaking school and followed the Canadian laws. They were, however, Christian so they blended in that way. But they didn't go out there and demand Belgian schools and sing the Belgian national athem when the Canadian national athem is sung.

Surely you could cite some examples where traditions were changed at the expense of the preexisting culture. For example, an instance where someone has demanded an anthem other than Canada's be sung?

[B. Max]

Surely you could cite some examples where traditions were changed at the expense of the preexisting culture. For example, an instance where someone has demanded an anthem other than Canada's be sung?

Just so happens I can. This is one of those see your future. I have to link to FD because it looks like the heel clickers may have paid a vist to the news paper and had them take down the story the very day they ran it.

http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=84869

[ScottSA]

Well Melanie that in a nut shell is what the majority in Canada are angry about, Canada's roots are Christian Culture and those of us who cherish it become rather angry that non-christians feel the need to expell it from our culture.

The majority of Candians?

Yes. Of course you go on to miss the entire point of what she said, but yes, the majority (still) of Canadians are Christian or post Christian. The atheist left is vociferous, to be sure, shoving into forums in hugely disproportionate numbers, but they are a minority.

[ScottSA]

Thanks for the welcome! I knew I would open up a can of worms LOL! I am not against learning about other cultures and traditions that go with that particular culture, but when other ethnics groups come in and demand things change to suit their needs, then yes, I am unhappy about that.

Welcome. Be careful of Melanie. She has been known to impute rather draconian motives in people.

Edited July 27, 2007 by ScottSA

[Bonam]

The atheist left is vociferous

Atheist != Left

[Melanie_]

Welcome. Be careful of Melanie. She has been known to impute rather draconian motives in people.

Aw, shucks, Scott, I'll try to take it easier on you in the future.

[ScottSA]

Welcome. Be careful of Melanie. She has been known to impute rather draconian motives in people.

Aw, shucks, Scott, I'll try to take it easier on you in the future.

Thanks, but just not misrepresenting what I say would be fine too.

[NovaScotian]

Yes. Of course you go on to miss the entire point of what she said, but yes, the majority (still) of Canadians are Christian or post Christian. The atheist left is vociferous, to be sure, shoving into forums in hugely disproportionate numbers, but they are a minority.

Atheists are more common on forums because they are younger and use technology more, as compared to older Christian Canadians(yourself excluded Scott).

Edited July 27, 2007 by NovaScotian

[Black Dog]

Yes. Of course you go on to miss the entire point of what she said, but yes, the majority (still) of Canadians are Christian or post Christian. The atheist left is vociferous, to be sure, shoving into forums in hugely disproportionate numbers, but they are a minority.

Of course, I never denied that (pwerhaps yopu were to busy whining about others "misrepresenting" you to notice?)? What I was taking issue with was not his assertion that the majority of Canadians are "Christian" but that the majority of Canadians are angry about multicultralism.

[ScottSA]

Yes. Of course you go on to miss the entire point of what she said, but yes, the majority (still) of Canadians are Christian or post Christian. The atheist left is vociferous, to be sure, shoving into forums in hugely disproportionate numbers, but they are a minority.

Of course, I never denied that (pwerhaps yopu were to busy whining about others "misrepresenting" you to notice?)? What I was taking issue with was not his assertion that the majority of Canadians are "Christian" but that the majority of Canadians are angry about multicultralism.

I think rather a clear majority of native born Canadians are angry about multiculturalism, whoever one defines it. A lot of them are too cowed by the threat of being called a racist to say it of course...

[jbg]

I think rather a clear majority of native born Canadians are angry about multiculturalism, whoever one defines it. A lot of them are too cowed by the threat of being called a racist to say it of course...

Governments promote multiculturalism (really racial segregation and discrimination with a politically correct label) in order to seem to be "compassionate" towards the victims of the world. The problem is that most people don't like to have their national identity, culture and country removed from them.

In Europe, Jews were granted civil liberties and theoretical equality between the early 1800's (Napolean in France), 1831 in Britain, and Prussia in the late 1880's (Bismarck, I think). Russia never quite got around to it. Very quickly, the perception developed, as a result of the Jews' intellectual proclivities and aptitudes, that they were taking control of Europe. The result of this, as we all know in hindsight, was flight to the Western Hemisphere and Australia of the more alert and/or footloose Jews, and a sickening massacre of those who stayed behind.

If Europe could not tolerate a group of relatively cerebral Jews appearing to take the ascendancy, imagine the violence that may erupt in Europe when the populace perceives that the politicians are twiddling their thumbs as Denmark, Germany, France, Spain and perhaps even the UK are going down the cr@pper into the ummah. I only hope this does not happen to Canada. I fear it may. (the US's Muslims are more integrated due in part to the "melting-pot" crucible as opposed to multi-culturalism).