Afgan Civilian Deaths

[ScottSA]

If the Taliban can't win in a straight fight, they could just wear Canada down with bombings and mines.

Absolutely true, but it hardly takes a genius to figure out why that is, dobbin. It's because of the intense civilian focus on an immediate solution, and our impatient tendency to assume that if every action doesn't deliver concrete and immediate results, the action must be useless. They can wear us down because we are impatient, and the media keeps up a steady drumbeat of impatience and pessimism to make sure we stay that way. The truth of this is borne out by the fact that the soldiers know they are succeeding, and the civilains believe they are not succeeding. One gets information from the horse's mouth, and the other thirdhand and filtered through the press. Which one is more likely to be accurate? Why the radical disconnect? If the fight truly wasn't working, or if the military didn't believe in it, why isn't it the other way around, with soldiers deserting or refusing to fight?

[jdobbin]

Absolutely true, but it hardly takes a genius to figure out why that is, dobbin. It's because of the intense civilian focus on an immediate solution, and our impatient tendency to assume that if every action doesn't deliver concrete and immediate results, the action must be useless. They can wear us down because we are impatient, and the media keeps up a steady drumbeat of impatience and pessimism to make sure we stay that way. The truth of this is borne out by the fact that the soldiers know they are succeeding, and the civilains believe they are not succeeding. One gets information from the horse's mouth, and the other thirdhand and filtered through the press. Which one is more likely to be accurate? Why the radical disconnect? If the fight truly wasn't working, or if the military didn't believe in it, why isn't it the other way around, with soldiers deserting or refusing to fight?

It takes a very long time for a volunteer force to start losing faith in a mission if Iraq is any evidence.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/story?id=3383389&page=1

I challenge anybody in Congress to do my rotation," said Spc. Michael Vassell of Apache Company. "They don't have to do anything, they just come hang out with me and go home at the times I go home, and come stay here 15 months with me."

Apache Company was sent to Iraq in June 2006 for a 12-month rotation which has since been extended to a 15-month tour.

"It's a joke. We will have spent 14 months in contact, basically fighting all 14 months," said Cpl. Joshua Lake. "Our battalion got right to Baghdad … first week we were in Baghdad we lost two guys in our battalion … it hasn't stopped since."

For years the military and the civilian population of the U.S. believed that success was around the corner. Some still do despite the fact that now even the military is divided on the issue.

The Department of National Defence in Canada is putting an even tighter lid on information. Requests for information that were honoured last year are being denied this year. How are Canadians to know if benchmarks are being met? How are they to find out how Canada is conducting the war?

The war started in 2001. It is now 2007. We are there till 2009. Canadians, in light of almost no information coming out of Ottawa, are drawing their own conclusions. They are also getting mixed messages from the families of the dead. Yesterday's funeral had a mother saying her son believed he was helping. Another mother said her son was going frustrated by the Afghan authorities being responsible for the mess.

Canadians have every right to hold their government's feet to the fire on Afghanistan. It is up to the government to explain and justify the mission. They have to issue timely information and they should stop blocking even the most innocuous requests for information. Even information regarding a unit's World War 2 history was recently blocked even though it is in almost every history book. I am referring specifically referring to the Devil's Brigade which DND now says is a matter of national security.

The issues of Afghanistan are not just about casualties but about the commitment of our allies and of the Afghan government themselves. Right now we are not seeing enough from either.

[Alexandra]

The Department of National Defence in Canada is putting an even tighter lid on information. Requests for information that were honoured last year are being denied this year. How are Canadians to know if benchmarks are being met? How are they to find out how Canada is conducting the war?

Which information is being withheld by the DND and requested by whom?

Canadians have every right to hold their government's feet to the fire on Afghanistan. It is up to the government to explain and justify the mission. They have to issue timely information and they should stop blocking even the most innocuous requests for information. The issues of Afghanistan are not just about casualties but about the commitment of our allies and of the Afghan government themselves. Right now we are not seeing enough from either.

Since July 5 2007 (and since the inception of troops in Afghanistan) the DND has held press 'briefings', conferences and issued press releases on an almost daily basis. If the media chooses not to attend these briefings or read the press releases and if the media then chooses not to report this news on an almost daily basis how else should the Canadian people be informed? By logging on to the DND website on a daily basis perhaps? Is Jack Layton, S. Dion, et al. informing themselves on a daily or weekly basis do you suppose by attending all of the press briefings and reading all of the press releases by the DND? You think?

How many Canadians believe it is their right to be spoon fed on a daily basis the government's explanation to 'justify' the Afghanistan mission d'you figure dobbin? How many Canadians know for example that 2,000 Van Doos from Quebec will be on their way to Afghanistan? More to the point how many Canadians care? Most Canadians, unless political junkies, are too busy to spend hours a day posting to an internet message board their opinions and complaints about whether they are receiving enough information from the government on foreign affairs, NATO or Afghanistan.

`

[jdobbin]

Since July 5 2007 (and since the inception of troops in Afghanistan) the DND has held press 'briefings', conferences and issued press releases on an almost daily basis. If the media chooses not to attend these briefings or read the press releases and if the media then chooses not to report this news on an almost daily basis how else should the Canadian people be informed? By logging on to the DND website on a daily basis perhaps? Is Jack Layton, S. Dion, et al. informing themselves on a daily or weekly basis do you suppose by attending all of the press briefings and reading all of the press releases by the DND? You think?

How many Canadians believe it is their right to be spoon fed on a daily basis the government's explanation to 'justify' the Afghanistan mission d'you figure dobbin? How many Canadians know for example that 2,000 Van Doos from Quebec will be on their way to Afghanistan? More to the point how many Canadians care? Most Canadians, unless political junkies, are too busy to spend hours a day posting to an internet message board their opinions and complaints about whether they are receiving enough information from the government on foreign affairs, NATO or Afghanistan.

`

And the media makes regular requests for information on benchmarks and reports of every type just to be rebuffed for national security reasons. They can't even get an answer on the World War 2 history of a unit because of national security reasons. It is ridiculous. But you seem okay with that.

Half of Canadians do not support the mission. That's a fact you should get used to. Blame the media or the Opposition if you want but it is the government that is responsible for getting the message out. They aren't doing a great job on that.

Edited July 18, 2007 by jdobbin

[Alexandra]

And the media makes regular requests for information on benchmarks and reports of every type just to be rebuffed for national security reasons. They can't even get an answer on the World War 2 history of a unit because of national security reasons. It is ridiculous. But you seem okay with that.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view...s_e.asp?id=2372

Statement by the Deputy Minister of National Defence on the Access to Information Review Process

NR–07.067 - July 11, 2007

OTTAWA - Several recent media stories have claimed that the Department of National Defence (DND) is blocking “any and all information about Canada's mission in Afghanistan.” This is not only inaccurate and misleading, it also implies that Defence officials are somehow acting in bad faith.

Canadians expect the Department and Canadian Forces to protect the security of Canadian troops who are in harm’s way, and to mitigate the risks they face as much as possible. In addressing information requests, the Department applies all appropriate procedures and Access to Information protocols; as well, departmental processes are consistent with Treasury ..............

Difficult to believe don't you think that the media would accuse the DND of --- acting in bad faith --- Imagine that. You jdobbin wouldn't think of making the same accusation against the DND as a few of our rather untalented and lazy reporters, would you?

The fact these reporters choose/elect not to provide the information produced at press briefings/press releases (if they even bother to get off their butts to attend a briefing) to the Canadian public then opine in writing or on the News at 6:00 that ` sniff ` the DND refuses to produce [sensitive information which may in effect compromise our troops] so obviously the DND is hiding the truth of Afghanistan from the Canadian public. Sound familiar? A rabble of self-righteous REMF's sitting in their cubicles in Toronto whining.

`

[jdobbin]

Difficult to believe don't you think that the media would accuse the DND of --- acting in bad faith --- Imagine that. You jdobbin wouldn't think of making the same accusation against the DND as a few of our rather untalented and lazy reporters, would you?

The fact these reporters choose/elect not to provide the information produced at press briefings/press releases (if they even bother to get off their butts to attend a briefing) to the Canadian public then opine in writing or on the News at 6:00 that ` sniff ` the DND refuses to produce [sensitive information which may in effect compromise our troops] so obviously the DND is hiding the truth of Afghanistan from the Canadian public. Sound familiar? A rabble of self-righteous REMF's sitting in their cubicles in Toronto whining.

`

Actually, I am saying that the politicians are responsible for relaying the message on Afghanistan, not DND which carries out policy. The policy of not revealing a unit's connection to the Devil's Brigade of World War II is a rather stupid one. And that comes the ministry.

So glad you are back from the front to set everyone straight.

Edited July 18, 2007 by jdobbin