MDs, Islam, Medievalism & the Enlightenment

[ScottSA]

It will all come again, as soon as this cycle is over.

What's with all the sophomoric mysticism? How come you like to blurt out these meaningless and usually trite slogans?

And they are different from your posts how?

If you don't know, my telling you won't help.

[jefferiah]

I did not find myself in agreement with KO2 very often. And alot of things he said were madness, but I think he was a lot smarter that alot of us gave him credit for as well. Some things he said, or even the unique way he put them, while I did not agree with it, showed a very sharp intellect.

[NovaScotian]

Thats true. Although Islam has had high points throughout its history this particular era doesn't happen to be one of them. I think the rigidly structured and repressive nature of Islam has held the Muslim people back and severely limited both their technological and cultural growth. After all due to the Qurans proclamations regarding women and their role in society, Islam has wasted the potential for advancement of a large segment of their population. That would be bound to retard progression to some evident degree.

I disagree, Islamic civilization was at its peak about one thousand years ago. Not because of its rigidity, but because of its openness and value of knowledge.

"During this period the Muslim world was a cauldron of cultures and works collected from Chinese, Indian, Persian, Egyptian, North African, Greek, Spanish, Sicilian and Byzantine civilizations were collected, synthesized and built upon.[2] Rival Muslim dynasties such as the Fatimids of Egypt, the Umayyads of al-Andalus were also major intellectual centers with cities such as Cairo and Cordova rivaling Baghdad.[2] Religious freedom helped create cross cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity of the Middle Ages during the 12th and 13th centuries.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age"

Remember that the bases of all three monotheistic religions have the same beginnings and same characters and they all have there own nasty parts.

[ScottSA]

I disagree, Islamic civilization was at its peak about one thousand years ago. Not because of its rigidity, but because of its openness and value of knowledge.

"During this period the Muslim world was a cauldron of cultures and works collected from Chinese, Indian, Persian, Egyptian, North African, Greek, Spanish, Sicilian and Byzantine civilizations were collected, synthesized and built upon.[2] Rival Muslim dynasties such as the Fatimids of Egypt, the Umayyads of al-Andalus were also major intellectual centers with cities such as Cairo and Cordova rivaling Baghdad.[2] Religious freedom helped create cross cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity of the Middle Ages during the 12th and 13th centuries.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age"

Remember that the bases of all three monotheistic religions have the same beginnings and same characters and they all have there own nasty parts.

Pardon me, but this filtered Google U version is a crock of arseware. Such "cross cultural networks" as existed were relevant because the Arabs had conquered them. If the Zulus or the Hottentot had conquered them they'd be "cross cultural networks" too...it's not a function of Islam that people didn't stop trading. And this idiotic myth of "religious freedom" that keeps popping up is ridiculous. It's easy to allow subgroups to exist and pay tribute once you've culled them down to powerlessness...just ask the european Jews. Or the Iranian ones for that matter.

[NovaScotian]

Pardon me, but this filtered Google U version is a crock of arseware. Such "cross cultural networks" as existed were relevant because the Arabs had conquered them. If the Zulus or the Hottentot had conquered them they'd be "cross cultural networks" too...it's not a function of Islam that people didn't stop trading. And this idiotic myth of "religious freedom" that keeps popping up is ridiculous. It's easy to allow subgroups to exist and pay tribute once you've culled them down to powerlessness...just ask the european Jews. Or the Iranian ones for that matter.

If people were allowed to keep there religious beliefs and worship openly, then isn't that religious freedom? It wasn't perfect harmony, but then again religious freedom in the Islamic world looks better when comparing this period to the conquering kingdoms of Europe(Carolingian, Merovingian, the Reconquista period and Spanish Inquisition) which had little tolerance to any religions except Christianity.

[ScottSA]

Pardon me, but this filtered Google U version is a crock of arseware. Such "cross cultural networks" as existed were relevant because the Arabs had conquered them. If the Zulus or the Hottentot had conquered them they'd be "cross cultural networks" too...it's not a function of Islam that people didn't stop trading. And this idiotic myth of "religious freedom" that keeps popping up is ridiculous. It's easy to allow subgroups to exist and pay tribute once you've culled them down to powerlessness...just ask the european Jews. Or the Iranian ones for that matter.

If people were allowed to keep there religious beliefs and worship openly, then isn't that religious freedom? It wasn't perfect harmony, but then again religious freedom in the Islamic world looks better when comparing this period to the conquering kingdoms of Europe(Carolingian, Merovingian, the Reconquista period and Spanish Inquisition) which had little tolerance to any religions except Christianity.

I'm not claiming Christianity was all peaches and cream for other religions either; that has nothing to do with it. I'm simply pointing out that this sterilized Edward Siadist description of Islam is sheer nonsense. No, it's not religious freedom when other religions can't go to court against a Muslim, or where a non-Muslim has to pay special taxes for not being Muslim, or where there is an entirely seperate and harsher set of laws for non-Muslims. Nor is it religious freedom to frequently pogrom on non-Muslims. No, that's not religious freedom.

And not only that, but the alleged "inventions" of Islam weren't Islamic at all. In fact, Islam has given the world nothing but backwardness and grief.

[jazzer]

And not only that, but the alleged "inventions" of Islam weren't Islamic at all. In fact, Islam has given the world nothing but backwardness and grief.

So is it your contention that the Islamic world has not contributed to the human experience, and has only provided grief, suicide bombers and oil?

[ScottSA]

And not only that, but the alleged "inventions" of Islam weren't Islamic at all. In fact, Islam has given the world nothing but backwardness and grief.

So is it your contention that the Islamic world has not contributed to the human experience, and has only provided grief, suicide bombers and oil?

Absolutely not. It has also contributed female genital mutilation; 6th century legal systems; the African slave trade; lots of geometric designs; several attempted invasions of Europe; the destruction and enslavement of two Jewish tribes; the deification of rape, beheading, lying, Jew killing and caravan sacking; harems; the comprehensive subjugation of women; and the Taj Mahal, built by slaves. Probably a few other things too, but my gorge is rising, so that'll do for now.

[jbg]

It's easy to allow subgroups to exist and pay tribute once you've culled them down to powerlessness...just ask the european Jews. Or the Iranian ones for that matter.

Good point. The Europeans certainly weren't prepared to tolerate Jews too well during the pre-WW II period when Poland alone had 2,000,000 Jews.

[jbg]

Absolutely not. It has also contributed....the destruction and enslavement of two Jewish tribes

Which ones?

And they gave us the root of the word "assassin".

[Remiel]

And Slavs gave us the root of the word " slave " . So, is that supposed to be some sort of description of the worth and character of all Slavs for all time? Get a grip.

[ScottSA]

Absolutely not. It has also contributed....the destruction and enslavement of two Jewish tribes

Which ones?

And they gave us the root of the word "assassin".

According to the Koran and the Sunnas, the Banu Nadir and Banu Quraiza...the two Jewish tribes who had originally settled Medina. I shouldn't say he killed them. In fact, according to the Koran, he only killed the men. The women he raped and enslaved, saving the most beautiful ones for himself. Way to go Mohammed!

[ScottSA]

And Slavs gave us the root of the word " slave " . So, is that supposed to be some sort of description of the worth and character of all Slavs for all time? Get a grip.

No doubt you'll be able to supply numerous wonderful things Islam has given us.

[jbg]

And Slavs gave us the root of the word " slave " . So, is that supposed to be some sort of description of the worth and character of all Slavs for all time? Get a grip.

No doubt you'll be able to supply numerous wonderful things Islam has given us.

In the construction business, they specialize in the demolition phase of the project. The commercial advantage is that they will demolish a structure with the people inside.

[ScottSA]

And Slavs gave us the root of the word " slave " . So, is that supposed to be some sort of description of the worth and character of all Slavs for all time? Get a grip.

No doubt you'll be able to supply numerous wonderful things Islam has given us.

In the construction business, they specialize in the demolition phase of the project. The commercial advantage is that they will demolish a structure with the people inside.

Excellent boon to society. The trouble is that all that asbestos in the air afterwards is troublesome for any of the Ummah who might be nearby hatching plots planning new and wonderful Islamic inventions to bring us. Rumor has it that Mohammed developed the first space program, firing himself into space on the back of a white horse in the miraj. Rumor fails to tell us under what motive power, although we can assume his horse Buraq was well stocked with oats, leading Nasa scientists to surmise that gastrointestinal methane was probably involved.

[ScottSA]

Apparently it contributed Marge Simpson as well.

http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archi..._fatima_ali.jpg

[Remiel]

No doubt you'll be able to supply numerous wonderful things Islam has given us.

I suppose I shall relieve you of your ignorance in this one matter. You should look up a man by the name of Abu Musa Jabir ibn Hayyan, also known as Geber.

[ScottSA]

No doubt you'll be able to supply numerous wonderful things Islam has given us.

I suppose I shall relieve you of your ignorance in this one matter. You should look up a man by the name of Abu Musa Jabir ibn Hayyan, also known as Geber.

Well hot damn, there actually is something that a Musselman contributed. Unfortunately it has nothing to do with Islam, and it rather appears that he did it in spite of Islam, since Islam killed his father and imprisoned him for a good chunk of his life. Not to mention the fact that the only reason his discoveries actually went anywhere is because the christian west picked it up and developed it. But nice try.

[NovaScotian]

Well hot damn, there actually is something that a Musselman contributed. Unfortunately it has nothing to do with Islam, and it rather appears that he did it in spite of Islam, since Islam killed his father and imprisoned him for a good chunk of his life.

What did Christianity have to do with any scientific discoveries? Most early scientists were persecuted and rejected by the church.

Not to mention the fact that the only reason his discoveries actually went anywhere is because the christian west picked it up and developed it. But nice try.

But Islamic scholars did contribute much.

Ibn al-Haytham - "Among his other achievements, Ibn al-Haytham described the pinhole camera and invented the camera obscura (a precursor to the modern camera),[13] discovered Fermat's principle of least time and Newton's first law of motion,[14] described the attraction between masses and was aware of the magnitude ofacceleration due to gravity,[15] presented the earliest critique and reform of the Ptolemaic model, first stated Wilson's theorem in number theory, pioneered analytic geometry, formulated and solved Alhazen's problem geometrically, developed and proved the earliest general formula for infinitesimal and integral calculus using mathematical induction,[16] and in his optical research, laid the foundations for the later development of telescopic astronomy,[17] as well as the microscope and the use of optical aids in Renaissance art."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haitham

Ibn al-Nafis - was an Arab physician who is mostly famous for being the first to describe the pulmonary circulation of the blood.

He was born in 1213 in Damascus. He attended the Medical College Hospital (Bimaristan Al-Noori) in Damascus. Apart from medicine, Ibn al-Nafis learned jurisprudence, literature and theology. He became an expert on the Shafi'i school of jurisprudence and an expert physician.

In 1236, Al-Nafis moved to Egypt. He worked at the Al-Nassri Hospital, and subsequently at the Al-Mansouri Hospital, where he became chief of physicians and the Sultan’s personal physician. When he died in 1288, he donated his house, library and clinic to the Mansuriya Hospital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Nafis#Dis...ary_circulation

Abbas Ibn Firnas - (810 – 887 A.D.) (Arabic: العباس بن فرناس) was a Berber[1] polymath: a chemist, humanitarian, inventor, musician, physician, poet, and technologist.[2] He lived in the Umayyad Caliphate of Córdoba in Al-Andalus, together with the Iraqi contemporary musician Ziryab. 'Abbas ibn Firnas' name was later Latinized as Armen Firman.

In 852, under the new Caliph 'Abd al-Rahman II, Ibn Firnas decided to fly off the minaret of the Mezquita in Córdoba using a huge winglike cloak to break his fall. He survived with minor injuries. This was considered to be the first parachute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbas_Ibn_Firnas

Zeng He - (1371–1433), was a muslim Chinese mariner, explorer, diplomat and fleet admiral, who made the voyages collectively referred to as the travels of "Eunuch Sanbao to the Western Ocean"

Between 1405 and 1433, the Ming government sponsored a series of seven naval expeditions. Emperor Yongle designed them to establish a Chinese presence, impose imperial control over trade, and impress foreign peoples in the Indian Ocean basin. He also might have wanted to extend the tributary system, by which Chinese dynasties traditionally recognized foreign peoples.

Zheng He was placed as the admiral in control of the huge fleet and armed forces that undertook these expeditions. Zheng He's first voyage consisted of a fleet of 317 ships holding almost twenty-eight thousand armed troops. Many of these ships were mammoth nine-masted "treasure ships" which were by far the largest marine craft the world had ever seen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī - His Algebra was the first book on the systematic solution of linear and quadratic equations. Consequently he is considered to be the father of algebra,[3] a title he shares with Diophantus. Latin translations of his Arithmetic, on the Indian numerals, introduced the decimal positional number system to the Western world in the 12th century.[4] He revised and updated Ptolemy's Geography as well as writing several works on astronomy and astrology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_...C4%AB#Geography

Al-Jazari - (1136-1206) was an important Arab Muslim scholar, inventor, and mechanical engineer during the Islamic Golden Age (Middle Ages).

He documented fifty[1] inventions in his book Al-Jami Bain Al-Ilm Wal-Amal Al-Nafi Fi Sinat'at Al-Hiyal (The Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Mechanical Devices). These included: the crank mechanism, connecting rod, humanoid robot, programmable robot, reciprocating piston engine, suction pump, valve, combination lock, cam, camshaft, segmental gear, the first mechanical clocks driven by water and weights, and especially the crankshaft, which is considered the most important mechanical invention in history after the wheel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Jazari

Wow, thats a whole lotta nothin. Umm... Did you even look Scott?

Edited July 21, 2007 by NovaScotian

[ScottSA]

I think you're missing an important distinction here. Any civilization will have thinkers who operate regardless of their surroundings. But in each of the cases you mentioned, it was left to the western world to make something of these discoveries. These people are famous for the most part because they are famous in the west, not becuse the Muslim world did anything noteworthy with their discoveries.

[NovaScotian]

I think you're missing an important distinction here. Any civilization will have thinkers who operate regardless of their surroundings. But in each of the cases you mentioned, it was left to the western world to make something of these discoveries. These people are famous for the most part because they are famous in the west, not becuse the Muslim world did anything noteworthy with their discoveries.

Certainly, that is true. But that is common throughout history. People at one time discover engineering, mathematical and scientific principles and may or may not be used at the time. This was true with the Greeks, Chinese, Arabic, Indian and others. Who knows what discoveries made today which have seemingly no value but good lead to good things in the future.

[ScottSA]

I think you're missing an important distinction here. Any civilization will have thinkers who operate regardless of their surroundings. But in each of the cases you mentioned, it was left to the western world to make something of these discoveries. These people are famous for the most part because they are famous in the west, not becuse the Muslim world did anything noteworthy with their discoveries.

Certainly, that is true. But that is common throughout history. People at one time discover engineering, mathematical and scientific principles and may or may not be used at the time. This was true with the Greeks, Chinese, Arabic, Indian and others. Who knows what discoveries made today which have seemingly no value but good lead to good things in the future.

You're still missing the point. Whatever discoveries managed to squeeze out of islam in between beheadings were siezed upon by the west and transformed into science by the west. Not one western discovery was siezed upon by Islam, and in fact western discoveries were explicitely excluded as the work of the infidel and thus tainted. The western world, in spite of or as a result of Christianity (I suspect both in about equal parts), supplied a medium in which scientific enquiry could grow, so that after the reformation the west shot ahead technologically. Islam, by contrast, remained insular and backwards in thought even as it tried repeatedly to expand into Europe through conquest. Islam today, 14 centuries after its birth, is virtually unchanged and even regressive, and the Islamic world's main export is gnashing of teeth and "seething."

[Bonam]

The western world, in spite of or as a result of Christianity (I suspect both in about equal parts), supplied a medium in which scientific enquiry could grow, so that after the reformation the west shot ahead technologically

I think progress, especially scientific and technological progress, occured in step with the decline of religious power. When Christianity had as strong a hold on the population in Europe as Islam currently has in some middle-eastern countries, those European countries were also very stagnant and averse to scientific progress. I would argue that those aspects of Western culture that encourage progress and innovation are not particularly related to Christianity. Even today, issues stemming from Christianity continue to inhibit scientific and technological progress that could be benefit civilization, such as in the area of stem cell research.

Also, while I share your apprehension about the current violent state of Islam and the implications this has for other civilizations throughout the world, it is worth remembering that at the age of 1400 years, Christianity, too, was quite violent and intolerant.

Call me an optimist, but perhaps if humanity makes it through the next 600 years (when Islam will be as old as Christianity is now), and if religion is still around by then, then maybe Islam will have been pacified to an extent comparable to the present state of Christianity. One can only hope that some other cult doesn't grow to be a fullblown religion in the midst of its youth and virulence by then.

Edited July 23, 2007 by Bonam

[cybercoma]

Brilliant post Bonam!

[ScottSA]

The western world, in spite of or as a result of Christianity (I suspect both in about equal parts), supplied a medium in which scientific enquiry could grow, so that after the reformation the west shot ahead technologically

I think progress, especially scientific and technological progress, occured in step with the decline of religious power. When Christianity had as strong a hold on the population in Europe as Islam currently has in some middle-eastern countries, those European countries were also very stagnant and averse to scientific progress. I would argue that those aspects of Western culture that encourage progress and innovation are not particularly related to Christianity. Even today, issues stemming from Christianity continue to inhibit scientific and technological progress that could be benefit civilization, such as in the area of stem cell research.

Also, while I share your apprehension about the current violent state of Islam and the implications this has for other civilizations throughout the world, it is worth remembering that at the age of 1400 years, Christianity, too, was quite violent and intolerant.

Call me an optimist, but perhaps if humanity makes it through the next 600 years (when Islam will be as old as Christianity is now), and if religion is still around by then, then maybe Islam will have been pacified to an extent comparable to the present state of Christianity. One can only hope that some other cult doesn't grow to be a fullblown religion in the midst of its youth and virulence by then.

Well, you've got cybercoma on your side...I'm not sure that's a good thing for you, but hey...

I think it's far too simplistic to see Christianity as representative of the forces of ignorance juxtaposed against the forces of sweetness, light and the Renaissance. In fact, without the classicism inherent in the Church, and without the theological debate that by necessity took the form of classical logic within the Church, long before the Renaissance began, it's unlikely that either the Renaissance or the Reformation would have taken place. The culture that spawned classical logic, and debate, and the entire social framework the set the stage for the western leap ahead was directly attributable to the Church. It's easy to look back and scoff at the theological debates that occured from the 6th to the 14th century, but they are as responsible for the "Age of Reason" as anything else. Simply looking back on it as many do, including cybercoma, as some kind of Monty Python skit submerged in dark ignorance, drowning witches and silly flagellants is as ahistorical as it can possibly be. The west didn't suddenly come to its senses and leap ahead, and in fact we only became a truly secular society less than 100 years ago, all rhetoric about seperation between church and state notwithstanding.

And it not at all profitable to draw comparison between Christianity and Islam...the comparison simply doesn't have merit. It's incredibly simplistic to imagine that the amount of "time" passed since the founding of religion has the slightest thing to do with its actions. Islam is insular, slavishly concerned with "submission" to an extent no Christian ever dreamt of, and so immersed in society that it cannot exist apart from it. Its fixation on the afterlife and total rejection of freedom in the here and now is pathological and never had a parellel in Christianity. There will be no Reformation in Islam. There will only be victory or defeat.