Private Healthcare? Why Not?

Mad_Michael · July 3, 2007

Recently over this holiday weekend one of the local smaller hospitals was invaded in their emerg by holiday people returning south and dropping into their emerg here because the could get faster service for childrens colds, earaches and such minor problems. The local doctors were not very happy.
Perhaps this is what you experienced. I took my son to emerg twice in North Bay with broken arms and he was looked after almost right away. I have gone to our local emerg down the highway and never had to wait more than one half hour. I find it hard to find people who would back up your charges.

We have great doctors in this area, we have a cancer program second to none in Sudbury. Perhaps if North Bay was not a Liberal riding you would not be so critical.

You omit to say that a new hospital is being built to replace the aging Catholic hospital and Civic hospital which has served the community for many years.

Many studies in Canada have identified the number one waste of healthcare resources comes from people coming to Emergency wards and demanding routine procedures.

This is particularly prevailent amongst lower income Canadians as well as new-comer immigrants.

White Doors · July 3, 2007

Hey all

just wondering how people can argue that I can spend money on my car, my kids education, my clothing, my teeth, and my house.

But if I want to spend my money on my own health in Canada, then that is illegal.

Just for fun...

You actually cannot spend your own money on your own car according to your own whims. That is illegal. You may only purchase cars that meet government regulations for safety, environment and whatnot.

You actually cannot spend your own money on your own kid's education unless the education you propose to purchase meets government regulations for educational criteria and whatnot.

You cannot spend your won money on your own houses unless the improvements you propose meet with government regulations for home renovations safety, environment, fire code, etc.

So, how or why should healthcare be any different?

Sorry, but this is a dumb comparison.

Firstly, private practices in Canada have to conform to government regulations, and they should, so there goes your analagy. The government does not own and operate a car manufacturer let alone force us to buy from only the one they operate, even if they did - which they don;t.

You get the point I presume?

You are talking about standards. No one else is.

Mad_Michael · July 3, 2007

You get the point I presume?
You are talking about standards. No one else is.

No, I'm critiquing the argument used to launch the thread.

margrace · July 3, 2007

Recently over this holiday weekend one of the local smaller hospitals was invaded in their emerg by holiday people returning south and dropping into their emerg here because the could get faster service for childrens colds, earaches and such minor problems. The local doctors were not very happy.

Perhaps this is what you experienced. I took my son to emerg twice in North Bay with broken arms and he was looked after almost right away. I have gone to our local emerg down the highway and never had to wait more than one half hour. I find it hard to find people who would back up your charges.

We have great doctors in this area, we have a cancer program second to none in Sudbury. Perhaps if North Bay was not a Liberal riding you would not be so critical.

You omit to say that a new hospital is being built to replace the aging Catholic hospital and Civic hospital which has served the community for many years.

Many studies in Canada have identified the number one waste of healthcare resources comes from people coming to Emergency wards and demanding routine procedures.

This is particularly prevailent amongst lower income Canadians as well as new-comer immigrants.

Ah but the ones tying up the emerg here were the ones who can afford $500,000 cottages.

White Doors · July 3, 2007

You get the point I presume?

You are talking about standards. No one else is.

No, I'm critiquing the argument used to launch the thread.

He wasn't talking about standards.

Hey all
just wondering how people can argue that I can spend money on my car, my kids education, my clothing, my teeth, and my house.

But if I want to spend my money on my own health in Canada, then that is illegal.

How does this make any sense?

I work hard for my money, if there is one thing I should be allowed to spend MY OWN MONEY on it is MY OWN HEALTH AND BODY.

He was talking about wanting to have the ability to pay for healthcare if he so chooses should th epublic system be found wanting. The Quebes SC agrees with him too btw.

You can't force someone to die based on ideaology.

weaponeer · July 3, 2007

Hey all

just wondering how people can argue that I can spend money on my car, my kids education, my clothing, my teeth, and my house.

But if I want to spend my money on my own health in Canada, then that is illegal.

Just for fun...

You actually cannot spend your own money on your own car according to your own whims. That is illegal. You may only purchase cars that meet government regulations for safety, environment and whatnot.

You actually cannot spend your own money on your own kid's education unless the education you propose to purchase meets government regulations for educational criteria and whatnot.

You cannot spend your won money on your own houses unless the improvements you propose meet with government regulations for home renovations safety, environment, fire code, etc.

So, how or why should healthcare be any different?

You actually can spend money on you car how you want, you can decide which vehicle you want (choice) what colour etc.. you can than customize it, after market stereo, rims, paint job etc... You don't have to buy a bland gov't made car. the gov't regulates, but does not build or service them...

Yes you can spend you own $$ on your childrens education, private schools, private tutors, home schooling etc... again the gov't regulates but does not provide the product....

As for a home, yes you can customize a home, put in a pool, make your gagrage bigger provided you meet some gov't regs. The gov't does not build it for you, does not provide a gov't approved backyard plan....

weaponeer · July 3, 2007

margrace,

not running away, bed time as it is very late here.....

margrace · July 3, 2007

margrace,
not running away, bed time as it is very late here.....

Hey I thought you lived in North Bay, its only 5:19

Mad_Michael · July 3, 2007

Sorry, but this is a dumb comparison.

Hmm... I missed this earlier.

So you want to take over for ScottSA eh?

Duly noted.

White Doors · July 3, 2007

Sorry, but this is a dumb comparison.

Hmm... I missed this earlier.

So you want to take over for ScottSA eh?

Duly noted.

I didn't call you dumb, I called your weak analogy dumb, which it was.

White Doors · July 3, 2007

margrace,

not running away, bed time as it is very late here.....

Hey I thought you lived in North Bay, its only 5:19

He's serving our country in Afghanistan.

Mad_Michael · July 3, 2007

You actually can spend money on you car how you want, you can decide which vehicle you want (choice) what colour etc.. you can than customize it, after market stereo, rims, paint job etc... You don't have to buy a bland gov't made car. the gov't regulates, but does not build or service them...
Yes you can spend you own $$ on your childrens education, private schools, private tutors, home schooling etc... again the gov't regulates but does not provide the product....

As for a home, yes you can customize a home, put in a pool, make your gagrage bigger provided you meet some gov't regs. The gov't does not build it for you, does not provide a gov't approved backyard plan....

No. All of these 'spendings' can only occur upon "approved government" permission granted. All your 'after market' products must conform to government regulation. If that product isn't government regulation approved, you can't spend money on it (legally, anyways).

In other words, the reason we have (or do not have) a free market in healthcare has NOTHING to do with your own theoretical sovereignity as a consumer. As a consumer, you are NOT sovereign. Claiming such non-existent sovereignty for healthcare, when one is non-sovereign in most other aspects is not a pursuasive argument.

There are indeed many good arguments for permitting private market healthcare options in Canada. The one given here is not one of them. Consumers are not sovereign. Almost all services and products are regulated by governments. Healthcare is no exception.

White Doors · July 3, 2007

You actually can spend money on you car how you want, you can decide which vehicle you want (choice) what colour etc.. you can than customize it, after market stereo, rims, paint job etc... You don't have to buy a bland gov't made car. the gov't regulates, but does not build or service them...

Yes you can spend you own $$ on your childrens education, private schools, private tutors, home schooling etc... again the gov't regulates but does not provide the product....

As for a home, yes you can customize a home, put in a pool, make your gagrage bigger provided you meet some gov't regs. The gov't does not build it for you, does not provide a gov't approved backyard plan....

No. All of these 'spendings' can only occur upon "approved government" permission granted. All your 'after market' products must conform to government regulation. If that product isn't government regulation approved, you can't spend money on it (legally, anyways).

In other words, the reason we have (or do not have) a free market in healthcare has NOTHING to do with your own theoretical sovereignity as a consumer. As a consumer, you are NOT sovereign. Claiming such non-existent sovereignty for healthcare, when one is non-sovereign in most other aspects is not a pursuasive argument.

There are indeed many good arguments for permitting private market healthcare options in Canada. The one given here is not one of them. Consumers are not sovereign. Almost all services and products are regulated by governments. Healthcare is no exception.

oh man..

Your analagy is SO weak.

The CSA (Canadian Standards association) says that you can sell toilets in Canada if they meet certain safety standards.

They DO NOT say you can only get the government toilet that the government manufactuted.

You are a smart guy, I KNOW you can figure out the difference here.

Regulation limits choice, it does not ELIMINATE choice.

margrace · July 3, 2007

margrace,

not running away, bed time as it is very late here.....

Hey I thought you lived in North Bay, its only 5:19

He's serving our country in Afghanistan.

Says who??? What do you mean, he said he lived in North Bay and then critized the hospital there. There are two hospitals in North Bay and a new one being built. Where do you come from, is it because as I said a liberal represents North Bay

weaponeer · July 4, 2007

margrace,

not running away, bed time as it is very late here.....

Hey I thought you lived in North Bay, its only 5:19

I do live in N Bay, just not there right now, which is not a bad thing with all the rain I hear has been happening:)

weaponeer · July 4, 2007

margrace,

not running away, bed time as it is very late here.....

Hey I thought you lived in North Bay, its only 5:19

He's serving our country in Afghanistan.

Says who??? What do you mean, he said he lived in North Bay and then critized the hospital there. There are two hospitals in North Bay and a new one being built. Where do you come from, is it because as I said a liberal represents North Bay

I do live in NB margarce, CFB NB up on Airport Hill, I am just deployed to Khandar Astan currently...

Yes, I have critized the NB hospitals, they are not very great, there's worse, but there's better. For the record I think the new hospital will great for NB, they deserve it in a big way. I have had the opportunity to live throughout both Canada and the USA, and the current situation back home leaves alot to be desired.

margrace · July 4, 2007

Well now I understand. You are in Afghanistan, may the lord be with you but my arguments still stand. If you never experienced this country without our present health care system then you have no idea why I am so upset when people try to take it away.

I lived when one could not afford the doctor and all we had was private hospitals. The one we had was owned by one doctor and unless you went to him you had to go many miles to a bigger city with a hospital.

A neighbour had an extremely sick little child, remember this was before the 401 was even thought of, and she went to Sick kids in Toronto. She was forced to sit in the lobby of that hospital with no help while they phoned back to our area to get someone from the local coucil to okay the cost. Then hours later she was finally admitted.

One never forgets these things and that is just one example. As in the US now, one could go bankrupt and lose everything if they got sick and the council would not pay. We had warm beds, lots to eat but no cash. My father took in loads of manure for the doctors lawn to help pay medical expenses. When one had to appeal to the councils for any help whatsoever, they were made to grovel for that help and the great city fathers made sure the whole area knew who was getting that help.

Our younger citizens now are a bunch of winey spoiled brats who demand instant gratification for themselves. They have to have everything new or the world comes to an end.

White Doors · July 4, 2007

Man you are thick sometimes margrace. No one here is aguing for us to adopt the US system. We are arguing that we be given a choice, have both public and private like alot of European countries. People should not have to die waiting because of your ideological bent.

Canuck E Stan · July 4, 2007

I am so upset when people try to take it away.

What people might that be?

margrace · July 4, 2007

Man you are thick sometimes margrace. No one here is aguing for us to adopt the US system. We are arguing that we be given a choice, have both public and private like alot of European countries. People should not have to die waiting because of your ideological bent.

And if you believe that then I have some ocean front property for sale in Sask. I have lived too long and watched politics too long to believe that our system is safe.

White Doors · July 4, 2007

Man you are thick sometimes margrace. No one here is aguing for us to adopt the US system. We are arguing that we be given a choice, have both public and private like alot of European countries. People should not have to die waiting because of your ideological bent.

And if you believe that then I have some ocean front property for sale in Sask. I have lived too long and watched politics too long to believe that our system is safe.

So your argument is that if any private entry into healthcare is allowed then the public system is doomed?

Renegade · July 4, 2007

So your argument is that if any private entry into healthcare is allowed then the public system is doomed?

Since you are unlikely to get a straight answer, I will clue you into the logic of the anti-private medical care advocates:

In our current system the healthier and wealthier subsidize the weaker and poorer. If a private system was offered, then more of the healthier and wealthier would choose that as an option rather than the public system. With continued use of the private system, the healthier and wealthier would have less interest in investment of government funds in a public system. Based upon this, the government would invest less and less in a public system and with time it would degrade, thus accelerating the pace of abandonment by the healthy and wealthy, until finally the public system is simply a place of substandard care for those who can't afford private care.

Besides the pressure exerted by consumers, there would also be pressure by the healthcare staff. The best and brightest would move to the private system where they could get paid more, leading to substandard care in the public system. Further the increase wage competition from a private system would force costs up in a public system further increasing pressure to reduce service.

Or so the logic goes...

margrace · July 4, 2007

So your argument is that if any private entry into healthcare is allowed then the public system is doomed?

Since you are unlikely to get a straight answer, I will clue you into the logic of the anti-private medical care advocates:

In our current system the healthier and wealthier subsidize the weaker and poorer. If a private system was offered, then more of the healthier and wealthier would choose that as an option rather than the public system. With continued use of the private system, the healthier and wealthier would have less interest in investment of government funds in a public system. Based upon this, the government would invest less and less in a public system and with time it would degrade, thus accelerating the pace of abandonment by the healthy and wealthy, until finally the public system is simply a place of substandard care for those who can't afford private care.

Besides the pressure exerted by consumers, there would also be pressure by the healthcare staff. The best and brightest would move to the private system where they could get paid more, leading to substandard care in the public system. Further the increase wage competition from a private system would force costs up in a public system further increasing pressure to reduce service.

Or so the logic goes...

So you have just described how the American system works now. What insurance company do you work for?

Renegade · July 4, 2007

So you have just described how the American system works now. What insurance company do you work for?

Have I? I assume then I was bang on in reading your logic.

Sorry to disappoint you but I don't work for any insurance company. What group of freeloaders do you work for?

margrace · July 4, 2007

So you have just described how the American system works now. What insurance company do you work for?

Have I? I assume then I was bang on in reading your logic.

Sorry to disappoint you but I don't work for any insurance company. What group of freeloaders do you work for?

Ha Ha thats funny when you are 72 will you still be working, well I do work I grow a lot of my own food and still make a lot of my own clothes. Will you do that at my age.