Private Healthcare? Why Not?

[Drea]

Do you believe we should stop rich folks from going to the states for treatment?

Do you think we should implement user fees (for doctor visits and er visits)?

[ScottSA]

Open your eyes and READ! Did I say anywhere in ANY of my posts that we have the best system?

No.

I said that paying the states for treatment is NOT the same as having a two tier system in Canada.

The fact that we can go to the states IS a two tier system in canada. Someone who lives in canada and has access to the US has access to a two tier system; they can wait in endless lines here, or go to the states. The availability of the states depends on their pocketbook. We already have a two-tier system.

I agree with user fees, although I don't think they will solve the problem.

[Canuck E Stan]

do you believe we should stop rich folks from going to the states for treatment?

Define rich, and why can't all of them or anyone else for that matter, stay home and be in private hospitals and clinics, like those already in BC, Toronto or Quebec?

[Drea]

One could also go to Britain or India (or anywhere else) for treatment.

That does not mean we have a two tier system here at home.

I think user fees would go along way to alleviating the backlog. Too many people go to doctors, er, the hospital for no reason whatsoever.

[Renegade]

Do you believe we should stop rich folks from going to the states for treatment?

No I don't think we should stop anyone from going anywhere they wish for treatment.

Do you think we should stop US medical staff from coming here to treat Canadians (on a paying basis)?

Do you think we should implement user fees (for doctor visits and er visits)?

Of course. User should pay some of the cost of the medical care they consume.

[margrace]

Open your eyes and READ! Did I say anywhere in ANY of my posts that we have the best system?

No.

I said that paying the states for treatment is NOT the same as having a two tier system in Canada.

The fact that we can go to the states IS a two tier system in canada. Someone who lives in canada and has access to the US has access to a two tier system; they can wait in endless lines here, or go to the states. The availability of the states depends on their pocketbook. We already have a two-tier system.

I agree with user fees, although I don't think they will solve the problem.

You see, we hear double talk and straw arguments. That is what this poster is assigned to do. Just read him

[ScottSA]

Open your eyes and READ! Did I say anywhere in ANY of my posts that we have the best system?

No.

I said that paying the states for treatment is NOT the same as having a two tier system in Canada.

The fact that we can go to the states IS a two tier system in canada. Someone who lives in canada and has access to the US has access to a two tier system; they can wait in endless lines here, or go to the states. The availability of the states depends on their pocketbook. We already have a two-tier system.

I agree with user fees, although I don't think they will solve the problem.

You see, we hear double talk and straw arguments. That is what this poster is assigned to do. Just read him

You're making less and less sense every day. Who is "assigning" me instructions? I assume I'm being paid by this nefarious mastermind, who how much am I sposed to be making? How old did you say you were again?

[margrace]

Silly!

Treatment is not denied close to home -- it's paid for by taxes and premiums.

IF you want to go to the states no one is stopping you. Don't you get it at all? The treatment here is COVERED by medical... you are not being denied treatment.

If you have money you want to burn on a pimple extraction -- you can a.) go to the states and pay or b.) get it done here and save your money.

Nothing denied.

You are denying me the right to be close to my home and with my family during these agonizing times.

You are denying me the right to dispense with my pain. Or to not have to wait for a surgery that will take two years before it happens.

Thanks for nothing.

Oh don't give us that, you are ready to deny millions the same rights.

[margrace]

Open your eyes and READ! Did I say anywhere in ANY of my posts that we have the best system?

No.

I said that paying the states for treatment is NOT the same as having a two tier system in Canada.

The fact that we can go to the states IS a two tier system in canada. Someone who lives in canada and has access to the US has access to a two tier system; they can wait in endless lines here, or go to the states. The availability of the states depends on their pocketbook. We already have a two-tier system.

I agree with user fees, although I don't think they will solve the problem.

You see, we hear double talk and straw arguments. That is what this poster is assigned to do. Just read him

You're making less and less sense every day. Who is "assigning" me instructions? I assume I'm being paid by this nefarious mastermind, who how much am I sposed to be making? How old did you say you were again?

Scottsa most of my children are older than you. And it seems like they have seen a lot more of life than you have. My daughter, who teaches nurses, took 17 of them over to Ghana for a month. Sounds like you should have gone along, you might have learned a little of the milk of Human Kindness.

[Moxie]

A two tier system in CANADA would involve paying CANADIAN health providers. Get it yet?

Do you think our govt should stop people from going to the states for treatment?

I don't.

I would not deny you the choice to leave the country for treatment if you so choose.

BUT if you CANNOT leave the country for treatment I would NOT deny you full service (paid by taxes and premiums) here at home.

It is NOT a two tier system when it involves going to a foreign country for treatment. Do you get it yet? I am getting tired of trying to explain the difference between PAYING in CANADA and PAYING in the states.

oy yoy yoy....

I get your point Drea and I agree, one can suffer and wait for the Canadian system to work eventually or head to another country to receive speedy treatment. At least we have a choice, Cubians don't. Personally if I need medical treatment I won't wait, I'm off to the states to pay for my treatment.

For the record our system of Medical Care is not FREE, we pay some of the highest taxes in the world for our third world medical system. It's broken and bloated with paper pushers while the true heros slog it out daily trying to get job done while the paper pushers ply on stupid rules daily by the dozen. Give the health care providers back the Hospital Systems and disband the disfunctioning Hospital Admin Boards with their BAs and no working knowledge of the Medical System. They have ruined what use to be a great system.

[White Doors]

No its not.

If you PERSONALLY can afford to travel to the US for treatment good on you.

But those who cannot afford to do so will get their treatment here -- paid by taxes and insurance premiums.

No one is saying you cannot go and get treatment. At the same time you cannot deny treatment to those who cannot afford it.

This is not a two tiered system. This is one person deciding to pay for treatment in a foreign country.

Wow. you have never met an illogical argument that you love to be on the wrong side of have you?

You are in business? haha

[margrace]

A two tier system in CANADA would involve paying CANADIAN health providers. Get it yet?

Do you think our govt should stop people from going to the states for treatment?

I don't.

I would not deny you the choice to leave the country for treatment if you so choose.

BUT if you CANNOT leave the country for treatment I would NOT deny you full service (paid by taxes and premiums) here at home.

It is NOT a two tier system when it involves going to a foreign country for treatment. Do you get it yet? I am getting tired of trying to explain the difference between PAYING in CANADA and PAYING in the states.

oy yoy yoy....

I get your point Drea and I agree, one can suffer and wait for the Canadian system to work eventually or head to another country to receive speedy treatment. At least we have a choice, Cubians don't. Personally if I need medical treatment I won't wait, I'm off to the states to pay for my treatment.

For the record our system of Medical Care is not FREE, we pay some of the highest taxes in the world for our third world medical system. It's broken and bloated with paper pushers while the true heros slog it out daily trying to get job done while the paper pushers ply on stupid rules daily by the dozen. Give the health care providers back the Hospital Systems and disband the disfunctioning Hospital Admin Boards with their BAs and no working knowledge of the Medical System. They have ruined what use to be a great system.

I agree there are two area problems in our system, Hospital Boards who create huge problems and the people who keep the applications for being a doctor out of reach of ordinary people.

[margrace]

They can purcahse group health plans, combine home auto and health insurance into a packages.

I've never heard of a comparision of auto and home insurance between the US and Canada,is there a big difference in those two?

My point was about private health insurance. Where I lived in Oklahoma you could purcahse your auto, home and health insurance from the same company and get reduced rates....

[margrace]

They can purcahse group health plans, combine home auto and health insurance into a packages.

I've never heard of a comparision of auto and home insurance between the US and Canada,is there a big difference in those two?

My point was about private health insurance. Where I lived in Oklahoma you could purcahse your auto, home and health insurance from the same company and get reduced rates....

My point is that this is the type of Mole we do not need on this board. Has it ever been in North Bay hospitals or was this just a straw argument, disappeared in a hurry when challenged.

[Drea]

No its not.

If you PERSONALLY can afford to travel to the US for treatment good on you.

But those who cannot afford to do so will get their treatment here -- paid by taxes and insurance premiums.

No one is saying you cannot go and get treatment. At the same time you cannot deny treatment to those who cannot afford it.

This is not a two tiered system. This is one person deciding to pay for treatment in a foreign country.

Wow. you have never met an illogical argument that you love to be on the wrong side of have you?

You are in business? haha

Then from your logic we have a 245 tier system! (there are 245 countries in the world).

If you go to New Guinea for treatment does that mean Canada has a two-tier system?

Come on now -- surely you understand... er, maybe not -- with your grade 8 education it must be difficult to wrap your brain around this very convoluted subject.

con-vo-lu-ted -- a big word. Sorry Scott -- it means complex. No, no. not a building complex like your grandma's condo! Complex as in complicated.

[ScottSA]

No its not.

If you PERSONALLY can afford to travel to the US for treatment good on you.

But those who cannot afford to do so will get their treatment here -- paid by taxes and insurance premiums.

No one is saying you cannot go and get treatment. At the same time you cannot deny treatment to those who cannot afford it.

This is not a two tiered system. This is one person deciding to pay for treatment in a foreign country.

Wow. you have never met an illogical argument that you love to be on the wrong side of have you?

You are in business? haha

Then from your logic we have a 245 tier system! (there are 245 countries in the world).

If you go to New Guinea for treatment does that mean Canada has a two-tier system?

Come on now -- surely you understand... er, maybe not -- with your grade 8 education it must be difficult to wrap your brain around this very convoluted subject.

con-vo-lu-ted -- a big word. Sorry Scott -- it means complex. No, no. not a building complex like your grandma's condo! Complex as in complicated.

How did I get involved with this? But now that I'm here, "complex" doesn't quite capture the full meaning of convoluted, really, because convoluted connotes a sort of twisting, or multicoiled complexity, while the term "complex" simply means multifaceted or difficult to understand. But thanks for the education. Next?

[weaponeer]

Yes, if my 16 old son seriously hurt someone while being stupid he should pay, and be saddled with a debt. The person he hurt may be saddled with no legs!! There are consequences for our actions.

What if he is the one who ends up with no legs? How is he ever going to pay off his medical debt? What will he do for a living? He is only 16, not been to university yet or learned a trade... where will the money come from? Do you expect that he (legless) will get a student loan (who would loan money to someone in debt to the tune of $250,000?) and go on to university, earn a degree and get out making big bucks. Poor kid would probably end up committing suicide and you would be to blame. One mistake. You are a nasty father -- your kid makes one mistake and not only does he have no legs but he will never be debt free again. There will be ongoing treatment which will only add to his debt.

I am not a nasty father, but I am not a pussy assed wimp either. Responsibility is what I have tought them, you screw up you have to take the consequences. In the USA if MY son in this scenario lost his legs, my insurance company wouls sue the person whom injured my boys company for the medical costs. As well, I could sue him for injuries/damages.

In Canada, if this person hurt my son like this I am powerless, I cannot sue for damages, no fault insurance.

[Drea]

You can sue even if the boy is at fault?

Of course people should take responsibility for themselves. I am sure my coworker who had breast cancer (never smoked or was near smoke her entire life, so can't blame that) would feel differently. All of her treatments were covered by BC Medical.

So it is NOT simply a matter of "take responsibilty" -- bad things do happen to good people.

[White Doors]

No its not.

If you PERSONALLY can afford to travel to the US for treatment good on you.

But those who cannot afford to do so will get their treatment here -- paid by taxes and insurance premiums.

No one is saying you cannot go and get treatment. At the same time you cannot deny treatment to those who cannot afford it.

This is not a two tiered system. This is one person deciding to pay for treatment in a foreign country.

Wow. you have never met an illogical argument that you love to be on the wrong side of have you?

You are in business? haha

Then from your logic we have a 245 tier system! (there are 245 countries in the world).

If you go to New Guinea for treatment does that mean Canada has a two-tier system?

Come on now -- surely you understand... er, maybe not -- with your grade 8 education it must be difficult to wrap your brain around this very convoluted subject.

con-vo-lu-ted -- a big word. Sorry Scott -- it means complex. No, no. not a building complex like your grandma's condo! Complex as in complicated.

You can't even keep track of who you are talking to!

LOL.

I think I may work with you.. Are you in sales?

Why can't we have private health care parallel with the public one if you have no problems with someone going to another country to pay for health care. Why not have all those tax dollars stay here?

Can you have just ONE consistency in yoru debating? just once?

[Keepitsimple]

The term “two-tier medicine” is very misleading and is usually used as a pretext to demonizing any attempt to introduce "private" medical treatment. "Two-tier" is used to imply that there is one level of service for the rich and another one for everyone else. As wait times have increased over the past 20 years, our provision of healthare has deteriorated into equal misery for everyone - with no alternative other than to go out of the country. It's very possible however - with the help of the Private Sector - to have a good and fair system for everyone along with the ability for the rich to pay out of their own pocket for priority service.

First, we have to acknowledge that a good portion of Public Healthcare is already provided by the private sector. Many, if not most blood tests, EKG’s, ECG’s and X-rays are already contracted out to private facilities like MDS Laboratories. The Shouldice Hospital in Toronto has been doing hip and knee replacements for over 20 years. Ontario introduced private MRI clinics 3 or 4 years ago in response to lengthy delays. Although successful and cost-effective, McGuinty’s Liberals bought out the private operators, thereby adhering to their public-only ideology.

Secondly, Healthcare is a Provincial responsibility – that means that we have the luxury of having ten different “test labs” to try out new approaches. Should one province be successful in one particular area, others may choose to follow. What a great environment for competition.

So let’s get on with it. Let’s completely forget about anything resembling US healthcare and simply focus on doing things the Canadian way. Similar to the Shouldice Hip & Knee facility, other areas of specialty might be appropriate to “contract out” to private facilities. Certainly MRI’s fall into that category – but how about heart bypasses and related conditions. I’m sure there are 3 or 4 other areas that might apply. Any area that has a regular “demand” could potentially be contracted out. I wouldn’t call them hospitals – I’d rather use the term clinics or Medical Facilities. Sure, it’s assembly-line surgery but that’s where surgeons get really good at what they do – and it becomes very cost-effective. They can also fund research to get better at their specialty. Having said that, here are the rules:

1) Each province authorizes what areas are eligible for contracting-out services and asks the Private Sector to bid on creating the first facility.

2) The specialized clinics MUST accept all patients - no "skimming" where "difficult" patients are refused.

3) The clinic must accept “ownership” of the patient after initial diagnosis by a Hospital or GP. This includes further tests and diagnoses, any subsequent treatment or surgery – including recovery.

4) There is a flat fee for services - some times they'll make a profit - sometimes it will cost a bit more (the "difficult ones). This fee is negotiated between the Provincial Health Authority (PHA) and the Private Clinic and must be no greater than the cost of using the Public system

5) The service must be provided within a specified period of time; 15 days, 30 days etc. This is part of the Service Level Agreement between the PHA and the Private Clinic.

6) All payments are made with the user's Health card.

7) The Private Clinic can provide “priority” service to Canadians or non-Canadians as long as they pay for the services themselves. Priority services can only be offered if the Clinic is meeting the Service Levels established by the PHA for regular public users.

One might ask why this can’t all be done within the Public System. Well it hasn’t been – that’s the first clue that there are inherent difficulties. Hospitals are built to use a limited number of resources to treat every conceivable illness and condition. They are not built for efficient, assembly-line treatment for all conditions. So let’s keep an open mind – private healthcare does not have to be the “evil” that some would have you believe.

[weaponeer]

You can sue even if the boy is at fault?

Of course people should take responsibility for themselves. I am sure my coworker who had breast cancer (never smoked or was near smoke her entire life, so can't blame that) would feel differently. All of her treatments were covered by BC Medical.

So it is NOT simply a matter of "take responsibilty" -- bad things do happen to good people.

I have NEVER said, if you review my posts, that lower income people should be denied healthcare. I have NEVER said let them die, not at all. I have said we should have, and already do have, a two tiered system. Canadians pay the dentist.

A Canadian that has the financial means to travel to the USA, and it is many, already participate in a 2 tiered system. They do not wait in lines at Canadian hospitals. Canadians love our system because most have known no other, and like the fact they walk out of the hospital without a bill. If they had much lower taxes, and access to private health insurance, they would like the system.

As I stated before, if you make below a certain income level you are covered by the gov't, above that level, you buy health insurance. If you can afford a new SUV, you can afford private health insurance....

[weaponeer]

They can purcahse group health plans, combine home auto and health insurance into a packages.

I've never heard of a comparision of auto and home insurance between the US and Canada,is there a big difference in those two?

My point was about private health insurance. Where I lived in Oklahoma you could purcahse your auto, home and health insurance from the same company and get reduced rates....

My point is that this is the type of Mole we do not need on this board. Has it ever been in North Bay hospitals or was this just a straw argument, disappeared in a hurry when challenged.

I did not disappear, my break was over and I returned to work... I have sat in the N Bay hospital with my girlfreind and kids, 12 hours one day for a fractured wrist. One of my best freinds was in there for cancer recently, the place is a dungeon. He and his wife have gone down to a cancer center in Houston TX, he's going to be OK...

My entire point here is that I have lived in both Canada and the US, have experienced both systems up close and personal, and we have alot to be desired here in Canada.... Socialist medicine does not work....

[Mad_Michael]

Hey all

just wondering how people can argue that I can spend money on my car, my kids education, my clothing, my teeth, and my house.

But if I want to spend my money on my own health in Canada, then that is illegal.

Just for fun...

You actually cannot spend your own money on your own car according to your own whims. That is illegal. You may only purchase cars that meet government regulations for safety, environment and whatnot.

You actually cannot spend your own money on your own kid's education unless the education you propose to purchase meets government regulations for educational criteria and whatnot.

You cannot spend your won money on your own houses unless the improvements you propose meet with government regulations for home renovations safety, environment, fire code, etc.

So, how or why should healthcare be any different?

[margrace]

Recently over this holiday weekend one of the local smaller hospitals was invaded in their emerg by holiday people returning south and dropping into their emerg here because the could get faster service for childrens colds, earaches and such minor problems. The local doctors were not very happy.

Perhaps this is what you experienced. I took my son to emerg twice in North Bay with broken arms and he was looked after almost right away. I have gone to our local emerg down the highway and never had to wait more than one half hour. I find it hard to find people who would back up your charges.

We have great doctors in this area, we have a cancer program second to none in Sudbury. Perhaps if North Bay was not a Liberal riding you would not be so critical.

You omit to say that a new hospital is being built to replace the aging Catholic hospital and Civic hospital which has served the community for many years.

[weaponeer]

Recently over this holiday weekend one of the local smaller hospitals was invaded in their emerg by holiday people returning south and dropping into their emerg here because the could get faster service for childrens colds, earaches and such minor problems. The local doctors were not very happy.

Perhaps this is what you experienced. I took my son to emerg twice in North Bay with broken arms and he was looked after almost right away. I have gone to our local emerg down the highway and never had to wait more than one half hour. I find it hard to find people who would back up your charges.

We have great doctors in this area, we have a cancer program second to none in Sudbury. Perhaps if North Bay was not a Liberal riding you would not be so critical.

You omit to say that a new hospital is being built to replace the aging Catholic hospital and Civic hospital which has served the community for many years.

The new hospital is going to be great for N Bay, no doubt. The Sudbury cancer ceter wrote off my friend, that's why he went south and will recover. As for whose riding it is, that does not matter to me one bit...