Should shooting beggars be allowed?

[buffycat]

jbg, not meaning to hijack the thread, but you might recall this as I have thought about it often since hearing the interview at least 15 years ago!

It was a very interesting CBC interview with a British woman, who was autistic - though quite highly functioning. It ran for at least an hour. What I found amazing was her ability to so eloquantly express herself and relate her own experience with autism. She described in detail how colours and textures would affect her - getting lost in the varied shades and shapes of greens she viewed around her in the trees. Fascinating. I remarked to my business partner that she sounded like she was describing what is was like to be an artist. (As both of us were).

I wish I could recall her name - but as I said it was years ago although I do find myself thinking of her rich descriptions often (especially when I am engrossed in my own artisitc (or should that be autistic) endeavours).

Do you know who I mean?

Anyway - pardon the hjack be your post vividly reminded me of that day listening to her once again! She was truly amazing - told by all her docs that she would never ever lead a 'normal' life! (She showed them!)

I would agree with you that autism is certainly a 'spectrum' disease.

[stignasty]

for mildly impaired children, mainstreaming is better for [] the "normal" children.

Why?

I can only speak for my son and his friends. Since he is normal much of the time, his contributions to the class and his playmates, both academically and recreationally, are almost the equivalent of those of other children.

When I went to school there was a special "opportunity class." The kids in the class were singled out and picked on. It's probably not difficult to think of the names given to that group of kids.

I have worked as a substitute teacher in schools that stress inclusion. What I have seen is that the so called handicapped students become accepted by the other kids. It's nice to see that they're not standing alone at recess, they're not shunned in the hallways. The misconception here is that the "normal" kids will be weighed down by the others. Typically, during classes like math these kids go off and do their own thing.

A book that you may want to look up is Children with Exceptionalities in Canadian Classrooms by Margret Winzer.

[jbg]

A book that you may want to look up is Children with Exceptionalities in Canadian Classrooms by Margret Winzer.

Thank you, and I just might.

Remember, though, I'm not Canadian. I can barely find Canada on a map.

[Argus]

Would you have institutionalized him at age four?

I'm not talking about giving up on people who can be helped. And I'm not talking about people with mild forms of autism or behavioural disorders who's behaviour can be improved and helped through integration with the classroom without unduly disturbing the others. I'm speaking about children who are highly disruptive to the classroom who ought to be in a special class. That does not mean institutionalizing them, but it means providing them with the help they need without harming other children. I've seen plenty of lawsuits from parents of highly disruptive children who insist their little tyke ought to be in a regular class with "regular" kids despite the judgement of educators.

I think, and this is a side track into education from what the theme of this thread is but anyway - that we cater too much to the minority in education at the risk of severely impacting the education of the majority. This is not just with integrating kids with behavioural and other problems but swamping schools with ESL type students with a very poor grasp of the language, not disciplining or expelling problem students, and catering to 'esteem" issues instead of educating kids. I'm sure that some small numbers of students are helped by this but I'm equally certain the majority are harmed.

[Argus]

Totally disagree. When I was student teaching, my teacher taught me the diagnostic prescriptive method, where classes are divided, in her case, into three distinct levels of learning. She was aptly able to manage all levels, but it required a little extra effort. No one suffered. She spent much of her time with those with learning disabilities and expected the smarter students to work independently. She was available at all times for any problems that came up. She taught ALL her classes this way and was very successful. She proved and measured her success with outake and intake assessments. Again, every student got their academic needs met in her classroom.

Good for her. Unfortunately, the public school system as a whole fails in its principal duty - to educate. Children graduate with virtually no knowledge of geography or history, an often limited ability to express themselves in writing, or to understand anything more basic than a prescription label (and sometimes not even that) and incapable of dealing with math except through the use of a calculator.

[Argus]

Let's check the score card:

Leftists: Bleeding hearts who want to include handicapped students in the classroom.

Conservatives: Realists who threw the mentally ill out of facilities and now want to shoot them for being an eyesore.

Damn Leftists!!

I don't hear any Canadian politicians, right or left, demanding that we reinstitutionalize the mentally ill beggars that are on our streets. Getting beggars off the streets is a vote-getter but building new mental institutions is not.

And getting back to the theme of this thread:

Whatever its charms, this city has an overwhelming problem. It is street crime and disorder, the in-your-face variety that no one, however careful, can avoid. Open drug use, prostitution, street fighting and aggressive panhandling: for decades, these have frightened and vexed residents, community leaders and visitors.

Understaffed and overwhelmed, police say things are only getting worse.

Vancouver's street crime problem

And what is Vancouver going to do about it all?

The last thing he wants is to be considered a law-and-order mayor, the Rudy Giuliani of the North. "I am caricatured as a guy who just wants to clean up the place," he complains. "That, I reject."

After all, Vancouver prides itself on "sensitivity and progressiveness," no matter how misplaced or myopic. "We need to do things in a compassionate and inclusive way," says the Mayor.

"Let's talk about where to focus our efforts," says Mr. Plant. "We may find it's more useful to spend more money on root cause issues," such as mental illness, he adds, "rather than on the criminal justice system, which is a dumping ground" for offenders.

It's that "sensitivity" thing again. Mr. Plant wasn't hired to frustrate troublemakers; his approach, like the one advance by the mayor, is to try and find ways to help them out.

Right. That's gonna work. Just be sensitive to the needs of aggressive panhandlers urinating on your foot, and homosexuals having orgies in the parks. Because, like, we wouldn't want to be insensitive.

[geoffrey]

Good for her. Unfortunately, the public school system as a whole fails in its principal duty - to educate. Children graduate with virtually no knowledge of geography or history, an often limited ability to express themselves in writing, or to understand anything more basic than a prescription label (and sometimes not even that) and incapable of dealing with math except through the use of a calculator.

I went to public school, and I was fortunte to finish with more than that... though I wouldn't credit the system. Most people that graduated with me couldn't write at the same level, don't know a thing about geography, all that stuff you mentioned. The public school system is an ugly place. I was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time and got some great teachers that did make a differnece in pushing the ciriculum beyond is ridiculous level.

One of the major underlying reasons behind the dumbing down of education is because we 'think' everyone in society needs it. This is relatively a new thing. So it's become a matter of policy to make everything so dumbed down that anyone could get it.

A quick look at your average social sciences or humanities 4-year bachelors grad will tell the same story. Don't get me wrong, there are alot of smart ones that took their education seriously and are quite gifted with what they've done. What these individuals don't understand is that after your first job, no one will ever ask what your GPA is again (I was never asked on any job), and you'll be stuck, grouped in with a bunch of dumbasses.

Lowing the bar on the education side has made things ridiculously easy and devalued everyone's education in the process. It's rather simple, average entrance grades have increased, but so has % of people with university degrees. It's no secret amongst my parents and teachers that did pretty much nothing all high school (150 absenses in grade 12 alone) but graduated with a 89% average in all university level classes.

I'm only a few years out of high school and just finishing up university. I know first hand of what you speak.

I'd never send my kids to a public school.

Another factor in all of this is parents, you can't neglect the fact that parents expect teachers to do it all, any instead just put the TV on and load their kids with junkfood.

[jbg]

I'm not talking about giving up on people who can be helped. And I'm not talking about people with mild forms of autism or behavioural disorders who's behaviour can be improved and helped through integration with the classroom without unduly disturbing the others. I'm speaking about children who are highly disruptive to the classroom who ought to be in a special class. That does not mean institutionalizing them, but it means providing them with the help they need without harming other children. I've seen plenty of lawsuits from parents of highly disruptive children who insist their little tyke ought to be in a regular class with "regular" kids despite the judgement of educators.

I think, and this is a side track into education from what the theme of this thread is but anyway - that we cater too much to the minority in education at the risk of severely impacting the education of the majority.

In one of my intermediate posts, I mentioned that my area has a "BOCES"program for the students whose antics would be disruptive to others.

This is not just with integrating kids with behavioural and other problems but swamping schools with ESL type students with a very poor grasp of the language, not disciplining or expelling problem students, and catering to 'esteem" issues instead of educating kids. I'm sure that some small numbers of students are helped by this but I'm equally certain the majority are harmed.

Don't you mean "CSL" (Canadian as a second language)? I think that people who immigrate should learn the language of the new country, not take instruction in the language "as a second language". I speak with my Jewish friends and colleagues (yes, I have non-Jewish friends and colleagues also) in English, the US's working language, not Yiddish. I think it should be expected that Columbian and Mexican immigrants also talk to each other in English if in the US, not Spanish. Just as I thought your language issues should have been considered settled at Plains of Abraham.