More Fun in Lebanon

[scribblet]

I wonder how much you'll see of this on the news, not a lot I bet as they can't blame the civilian deaths on Israel. Wonder if Green Helmet man will be there for his propaganda movies.

http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/topstori..._140144830.html

Lebanese tanks pounded the headquarters of a group with suspected links to al Qaeda in a Palestinian refugee camp near Tripoli Sunday after the northern city's worst clashes in two decades killed 22 soldiers and 17 militants.

The clashes between troops surrounding the Nahr el-Bared camp and Fatah Islam fighters began early in the morning shortly after police raided a militant-occupied apartment on a major thoroughfare in Tripoli and a gunbattle erupted, witnesses said.

Hundreds of Lebanese applauded as army tanks shelled the camp -- a sign of the long-standing tensions between some Lebanese and the tens of thousands of Palestinians who took refuge from fighting in Israel over the past decades. (Watch civilians, soldiers scurry as the sound of gunfire fills the streets of Tripoli )

"We strongly back the Lebanese army troops and what they are doing," said Abed Attar, a resident of Tripoli who stood watching the tanks fire into the camp while others cheered.

Ten militants were killed in the building in Tripoli and seven in the refugee camp, security officials said. They said 22 soldiers had also been killed.

The violence adds one more destabilizing factor to conflict-ridden Lebanon, already in the midst of its worst political crisis between the Western-backed government and pro-Syrian opposition since the end of the 1975-90 Lebanese civil war.

It was a rare clash between the Lebanese army and militants and the first major fighting between the security forces and Palestinians since the early 90s when troops fought Palestinian guerrillas in Ein el-Hilweh refugee camp in southern Lebanon.

pictures here: http://www.lebanese-forces.org/tripoliclashes052007.htm

[Higgly]

I note you don't say which part of the Lebanese Army was involved. This is the sort of thing that happens when you have large numbers of refugees driven into neighbouring countries by wars of displacement. Sort of gives you an idea of what the next 50 years will be like regarding the Iraqi refugees...

But it's such fun when the Arabs kill each other, isn't it Scriblett?

[B. Max]

I wonder how much you'll see of this on the news, not a lot I bet as they can't blame the civilian deaths on Israel.

I believe it was fox news that was covering it today, and the launching of rockets into Israel from Gaza.

[buffycat]

I find the timing of this very suspect - right at the time the full Winograd report is due, just in time to divert eyes from the genocide continuing in Occupied Palestine - and to top it off - these never before heard of militants are linked to Al'Queda!!

VERY convenient indeed!

Follow the money and ask WHO benefits from all this - HINT: it is NOT the Palestinians NOR the Lebanese.

Though, I imagine that Scribblet is just wetting her pants with delight!

[scribblet]

I find the timing of this very suspect - right at the time the full Winograd report is due, just in time to divert eyes from the genocide continuing in Occupied Palestine - and to top it off - these never before heard of militants are linked to Al'Queda!!

VERY convenient indeed!

Follow the money and ask WHO benefits from all this - HINT: it is NOT the Palestinians NOR the Lebanese.

Though, I imagine that Scribblet is just wetting her pants with delight!

Gee, don't let your imagination run wild, but then, you havn't graduated from Creative Thinking 101 yet-

that's a personal attack by the way and you might want to take a look at your posts castigating other people for exactly what you are doing now. LOL

[scribblet]

Gee, still havn't blamed Israel yet..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6675163.stm

Lebanese troops and Islamist militants have clashed in the city of Tripoli for a second day, after earlier violence left about 50 people dead.

Troops shelled Fatah al-Islam positions around the Nahr al-Bared refugee camp, the focus of much of Sunday's fighting.

More than 20 soldiers and 20 militants were killed in Sunday's clashes, and an unconfirmed number of civilians.

It was Lebanon's bloodiest internal fighting since the country's civil war ended 17 years ago.

The information minister said troops would hunt down the Islamist group. cont....

[buffycat]

No one here has blamed Israel either - only you bring that up! Typical - no surprise there.

Though - hey since you do - where is this all taking place Scribblet? In a Palestinian REFUGEE Camp!!

From your BBC link:

"Lebanon is home to more than 350,000 Palestinian refugees, many of whom fled or left their homes when Israel was created in 1948."

So as you do see it is certainly ALL connected.

Here is another piece from the Turkish Press:

Palestinian Factions in Talks to End Lebanon Violence

excerpt:

Ziki said the Fatah al-Islam, which is accused of links to Al-Qaeda, was a "strange phenomenon" and that many of its members were not Palestinian.

***

This seems to be an odd group - and its also uncertain exactly where they came from and who is funding this. Lots of speculation and very little real facts. I would not rule out black ops by various groups or states.

All of that aside, I do hope that this can be settled without harm to those who are forced to live in these squalid camps and are truly innocent of any kind of wrongdoing.

Still though, I stand by the convenience of this occuring at the same time as other actions, such as the Gaza situation among others.

CUI BONO??

[Argus]

I note you don't say which part of the Lebanese Army was involved. This is the sort of thing that happens when you have large numbers of refugees driven into neighbouring countries by wars of displacement. Sort of gives you an idea of what the next 50 years will be like regarding the Iraqi refugees...

But it's such fun when the Arabs kill each other, isn't it Scriblett?

If the Arabs had done things right, had any decency, then or now, those "Palestinian refugees" would be Lebanese citizens. Calling it a "refugee camp" is a ludicrous misnomer. They are large towns and cities in almost every respect. Virtually everyone there was born in Lebanon to parents born in Lebanon. They are ethnically, linguistically, culturally, religiously and historically identical to the people of that region.

[Argus]

I find the timing of this very suspect - right at the time the full Winograd report is due, just in time to divert eyes from the genocide continuing in Occupied Palestine -

Genocide? What an absurd statement, what an ignorant comparison to the horrors which have taken place in actual genocide and ethnic cleansing. If what is going on in Palestine is "genocide" it appears to be singularly poorly run, for their numbers continue to grow every year.

You might go to Germany some time and look at the empty, musty halls of Jewish temples some time to see what genocide looks like.

[scribblet]

If the Arabs had done things right, had any decency, then or now, those "Palestinian refugees" would be Lebanese citizens. Calling it a "refugee camp" is a ludicrous misnomer. They are large towns and cities in almost every respect. Virtually everyone there was born in Lebanon to parents born in Lebanon. They are ethnically, linguistically, culturally, religiously and historically identical to the people of that region.

It must be pretty hard on the average Lebanese who only want peace and to go about their business without having their lives hijacked by radicals. Now all it needs is for Hezbollah to get in on this, wonder who they will support - the gov't or the radicals. Maybe they would be happy to contribute to a little bit of destabilization.

[Guest chilipeppers]

I find the timing of this very suspect - right at the time the full Winograd report is due, just in time to divert eyes from the genocide continuing in Occupied Palestine -

Genocide? What an absurd statement, what an ignorant comparison to the horrors which have taken place in actual genocide and ethnic cleansing. If what is going on in Palestine is "genocide" it appears to be singularly poorly run, for their numbers continue to grow every year.

You might go to Germany some time and look at the empty, musty halls of Jewish temples some time to see what genocide looks like.

Thanks for that reply. Her definition of genocide is strange isn't it but no mention of Hamas government genocidal policy towards Israel. So now this is somehow Israel's fault to deflect from Olmert, oh my, didn't take long for that to come out did it.

I guess killing one another isn't enough now these radical elements have go out to rob banks and kill Lebanese who are housing them. They started the last Lebanese civil war and now seem on the brink of starting another. Israel should sit this one out and let Lebanon, the Palestinians and Hezbollah tear each other apart and maybe kill off some radical scum.

[buffycat]

Here is something interesting in this whole murky pot:

"To undermine Iran, which is predominantly Shiite, the Bush Administration has decided, in effect, to reconfigure its priorities in the Middle East. In Lebanon, the Administration has coöperated with Saudi Arabia’s government, which is Sunni, in clandestine operations that are intended to weaken Hezbollah, the Shiite organization that is backed by Iran. The U.S. has also taken part in clandestine operations aimed at Iran and its ally Syria. A by-product of these activities has been the bolstering of Sunni extremist groups that espouse a militant vision of Islam and are hostile to America and sympathetic to Al Qaeda."

Snip

"The policy shift has brought Saudi Arabia and Israel into a new strategic embrace, largely because both countries see Iran as an existential threat. They have been involved in direct talks, and the Saudis, who believe that greater stability in Israel and Palestine will give Iran less leverage in the region, have become more involved in Arab-Israeli negotiations."

snip

"Alastair Crooke, who spent nearly thirty years in MI6, the British intelligence service, and now works for Conflicts Forum, a think tank in Beirut, told me, “The Lebanese government is opening space for these people to come in. It could be very dangerous.” Crooke said that one Sunni extremist group, Fatah al-Islam, had splintered from its pro-Syrian parent group, Fatah al-Intifada, in the Nahr al-Bared refugee camp, in northern Lebanon. Its membership at the time was less than two hundred. “I was told that within twenty-four hours they were being offered weapons and money by people presenting themselves as representatives of the Lebanese government’s interests—presumably to take on Hezbollah,” Crooke said."

from:

The Redirection

by Seymour M. Hersh

The NewYorker

Pretty good article wrt all the nasty players in these dangerous game they play with others' lives.

And don't kid yourselves - Israel is involved - as much as the US, Saudis, Syria and the whole darn lot.

Can anyone say 'Blowback'!?

(edited for url title )

[buffycat]

You might go to Germany some time and look at the empty, musty halls of Jewish temples some time to see what genocide looks like.

Uh, I lived there. Had many friends quite active in their own temples. Not too many musty halls, most quite active places I would say. In fact, emigration out of Israel to Germany has been climbing recently! I know many of my friends there who hold Israeli citizenship as well have no intention of moving. Some have flirted with spending a year of two, but all have returned.

When were you last there?

[buffycat]

Thanks for that reply. Her definition of genocide is strange isn't it but no mention of Hamas government genocidal policy towards Israel. So now this is somehow Israel's fault to deflect from Olmert, oh my, didn't take long for that to come out did it.

I guess killing one another isn't enough now these radical elements have go out to rob banks and kill Lebanese who are housing them. They started the last Lebanese civil war and now seem on the brink of starting another. Israel should sit this one out and let Lebanon, the Palestinians and Hezbollah tear each other apart and maybe kill off some radical scum.

Did you read any of the posted articles? Do you know who is fighting who and where?

Do you know anything chilipeppers?

Some things that happen are rather convenient - and often not as random as you might want to think.

Oh and this has little to do with Hamas as we are talking about a 'new' radical group whose affiliations are questionable at best, admittedly also not related to 'Hamas'.

It would do you justice if you actually stuck to the topic at hand - it know it's hard - but you could try reading all the posted material!

[Guest chilipeppers]

Thanks for that reply. Her definition of genocide is strange isn't it but no mention of Hamas government genocidal policy towards Israel. So now this is somehow Israel's fault to deflect from Olmert, oh my, didn't take long for that to come out did it.

I guess killing one another isn't enough now these radical elements have go out to rob banks and kill Lebanese who are housing them. They started the last Lebanese civil war and now seem on the brink of starting another. Israel should sit this one out and let Lebanon, the Palestinians and Hezbollah tear each other apart and maybe kill off some radical scum.

Did you read any of the posted articles? Do you know who is fighting who and where?

Do you know anything chilipeppers?

Some things that happen are rather convenient - and often not as random as you might want to think.

Oh and this has little to do with Hamas as we are talking about a 'new' radical group whose affiliations are questionable at best, admittedly also not related to 'Hamas'.

It would do you justice if you actually stuck to the topic at hand - it know it's hard - but you could try reading all the posted material!

whooo nice rant foaming at the mouth a tad are we ROTFL I was going to put you on ignore but you are quite entertaining really you do show your bigotry and don't let the foam get on your screen

so its okay for you to divert the topic to your version of "genocide in occupied palestine"

I find the timing of this very suspect - right at the time the full Winograd report is due, just in time to divert eyes from the genocide continuing in Occupied Palestine

[M.Dancer]

Well, this certainly illustrates why so many Arab nations want the Palestinians to go home.......and what happens to nations that allow people to form their own shadow govts and security (AKA Militias and kangaroo courts)

[Rue]

To suggest Saudi Arabia and Israel are in cahoots is past the point of absurdity. Saudi Arabia funds the vast majority of Palestinian Sunni terrorist cells. That is a substantiated fact and Saudi Arabia admits it and does not hide that fact.

Get real. Saudi Arabia is not and has never been Israel's ally. To try twist what is going in in Lebanon to suggest this is nonsensical.

The conflict within Lebanon has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with France and Britain artificially imposing colonial borders and forcing different ethnic groups into unrealistic living conditions. Israel is as much a victim of France and Britain's decision to slice up Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Jordan as any Arab country.

As for the decision of the Arab League to deliberately create Palestinian refugee camps and instruct its member nations not to grant citizenship to Palestinians, is something the anti-Israel constellation, i.e., Figleaf and Higgly and Buffy can discuss amongst themselves at a kosher delicatessan but may I suggest to blame the Lebanse conflict on Israel is nonsense, it is in fact a Muslim on Muslim policy.

The current conflict in Lebanon is in fact between a Syrian controlled militant terrorist cell and the current Lebanese government. Syria has lost colonial control over Lebanon and had tried to restrore it through Hezbollah but Hezbollah has made it clear they have no need for Syria unless its to fight Israel other then that Hezbollah can not be manipulated by Syria, so the Syrians now are looking for other allies within Lebanon to try destabalize and overthrow the current Lebanese government which is anti-Syrian.

You want to point fingers stop creating ridiculous fantasies about Saudi Arabia and Israel and look to Syria fueling the latest tension to try topple the Lebanese government.

You also may want to ask yourselves what the French are doing. They pride themselves on being the Western power with the most influence in Lebanon but they allied themselves with Hezbollah even after 55 French soldiers were killed by Hezbollah. You may ask them what they are doing these days because it would appear they are actively allied with bith Syria and Hezbollah and will look the other way and not support their once French speaking Phelangiste Christian allies in Lebanon.

If you think Israel has any vested interest in what is going on in Lebanon other then preventing Hezbollah or other Palestinian terrorists from attacking it, you are dead wrong.

As for what Argus said about these refugee camps in fact being cities, go find out for yourself. He is dead on. Take a look at their size and the logistics involved and how they are in fact autnomous political zones which the Lebanese army and government has not been allowed to enter.

This notion where peopl born in Lebanon will remain "Palestinian" until the magic day they will destroy Israel and "return" there is a fiction used to exploit and control these people by Syria, Hezbollah, Iran and Muslim terrorists who seek to establish Muslim theocractic empires and could care less about Palestinians.

But of course what would a discussion on anything in the Middle East be without someone blaming Israel for something. The alliance with Saudi Arabia though that is almost as good as the one about Paris Hilton being smart.

[Guest chilipeppers]

Not only absurd but is now in moonbat realm, also shows the underlying bigotry towards Israel. There are 31,000 civilians trapped in the Palestinian city, guess its Israel's fault now that civilians are being killed.

If anyone listened to BBC world news last night they would have heard them reporting that Lebanon believes that Syria is behind it. This is a radical group not supported by the Palestinians whom they are hiding amongst.

The militants attacked an aid convey http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6678941.stm civilians are now being killed and injured.

Lebanese Trade Minister Sami Haddad told the BBC his government suspected Syria of masterminding the violence in an attempt to destabilise the government

[buffycat]

Just thought I would add another piece wrt who exactly this Fatah Al'Islam group are:

"In an interview on CNN International's Your World Today, veteran journalist Seymour Hersh explains that the current violence in Lebanon is the result of an attempt by the Lebanese government to crack down on a militant Sunni group, Fatah al-Islam, that it formerly supported.

Last March, Hersh reported that American policy in the Middle East had shifted to opposing Iran, Syria, and their Shia allies at any cost, even if it meant backing hardline Sunni jihadists.

A key element of this policy shift was an agreement among Vice President Dick Cheney, Deputy National Security Advisor Elliot Abrams, and Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the Saudi national security adviser, whereby the Saudis would covertly fund the Sunni Farah al-Islam in Lebanon as a counterweight to the Shia Hezbollah."

LINK

Interesting, again I ask:

CAN ANYONE SAY BLOWBACK????

I mean really what does anyone expect?

Who benefits from this? Certainly NOT the Palestinians, NOT the Lebanese PEOPLE...so who??

Nice diversion though, too bad it's backfiring.

And as for those here saying 'why don't the Palistinians just go home' Newsflash: BECAUSE Israel won't allow it!! sheesh.

[scribblet]

To suggest Saudi Arabia and Israel are in cahoots is past the point of absurdity. Saudi Arabia funds the vast majority of Palestinian Sunni terrorist cells. That is a substantiated fact and Saudi Arabia admits it and does not hide that fact.

Get real. Saudi Arabia is not and has never been Israel's ally. To try twist what is going in in Lebanon to suggest this is nonsensical.

The only people who would suggest that are those who are no friend of Israel... twisting and spinning facts are their reality.

[Argus]

I have to say I find the international attention and coverage an interesting contrast to the kind of things we'd be seeing if it was Israel surrounding and battering a Palestinian refugee camp.

From what I've seen more people have already been killed here than were killed at Jenin, yet there is no uproar, no UN demands, no accusations of genocide, no hysterical western media, no thundering howls for blood from the Arab street, no denunciations from the temples to enrage the Muslim masses.

[scribblet]

I did hear today that the terrorists are threatening to bomb schools and churches if the Lebanese army doesn't surrender.

I wonder if the U.N. will condemn the Lebanese Army for their UN convoy being hit in the Pals. refugee camp - imagine if it were Israel - I can hear it now.

[M.Dancer]

I did hear today that the terrorists are threatening to bomb schools and churches if the Lebanese army doesn't surrender.

I wonder if the U.N. will condemn the Lebanese Army for their UN convoy being hit in the Pals. refugee camp - imagine if it were Israel - I can hear it now.

They will be condemned right around the time someone claims that it is really the jews manning the labanese batteries.....

[Rue]

"This is the sort of thing that happens when you have large numbers of refugees driven into neighbouring countries by wars of displacement."

For the record the persons in the refugee camps were NOT displaced from the War of Independence. They are third generation Palestinians. The choice to not allow them citizenship in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt or any of the other Arab League nations is not the fault of Israel as Higgly of course infers.

More to the point the actual terrorist cell hiding within the refugee camp in Lebanon is not even from Lebanon. It consists of Syrian trained militants many from Egypt, Syria, Iran, Iraq and other countries.

Interesting the same Higgly who shouted volumes about how Sharon was such an evil ogre for not stopping the South Lebanese Army from entering a refugee camp and committing a massacre, but as this happens, we don't hear how the Lebanese are war criminals from Higgly do we or will we?

The point is, once again a cell of terrorists have exploited a political problem and hide behind civilians.

All that will happen is once again ithat civilians caught in the cross fire between the Lebanese Army and these terrorists will suffer and die precisely because these terrorists want civilians to die to get their political point across.

Point the finger on Syria for this one. Those militants are funded by the Syrians.

[Rue]

I have to say I find the international attention and coverage an interesting contrast to the kind of things we'd be seeing if it was Israel surrounding and battering a Palestinian refugee camp.

From what I've seen more people have already been killed here than were killed at Jenin, yet there is no uproar, no UN demands, no accusations of genocide, no hysterical western media, no thundering howls for blood from the Arab street, no denunciations from the temples to enrage the Muslim masses.

I agree Argus. The double standard is there.