Canadian Wheat Board

[jdobbin]

jdobbin, methinks you are picking at the model and ignoring the point.

Fine, you can't have a dual system within one province. Then make a question for a referendum that says :"Would you like the right to sell your wheat to anyone the same as Eastern farmers OR do you want to continue with the CWB?"

Then we could implement the result.

I have no problem with a fair set of questions as posed by Parliament. We know Harper can reach out from time to time on important issues. What he has done is try to use the backdoor three times when there is legislation in place that the courts tell him he must follow.

Harper keeps thinking he can do it unilaterally without calling a Parliamentary vote. He can't.

[CoachCartman]

According to the latest poll from the CWB, Farmers want dual market or open market for their Malt Barley....63%

[jdobbin]

According to the latest poll from the CWB, Farmers want dual market or open market for their Malt Barley....63%

Once the market opens up, the option of using the Wheat Board ends just as it has for other grains that have been dropped.

It is why many say the dual market really means the open market.

It may be that this is the chosen option for farmers but it should be clear that under WTO rules, the Wheat Board won't be able to business in barley without penalties. I'm not sure all farmers know this.

[Alta4ever]

That's because the Act has changed since then.

Sounds like you don't meet a lot of farmers.

Really you think so huh? I managed a farm book of business when I worked for the local insurance agency of more then 1000 farms. I live in a major farming community, both my in laws and my whole family farm. So you were saying?

Edited June 26, 2008 by Alta4ever

[Alta4ever]

I have no problem if farmers want to market their own grain. However, there is no dual marketing. If western Canada opens up to the market, the Wheat Board will be subject to trade retaliation.

People here keep saying that there is dual marketing but willfully ignore the fact that the Wheat Board cannot operate outside of western Canada selling Ontario or Quebec grains without running counter to WTO guidelines.

Once the monopoly is gone, it is legal for the U.S. to hit Canada with trade sanctions for keeping the Board. In other words, no dual market. It will be a single market.

Any debate has to make that clear. Given the confusion here, it seems many people don't know this.

In Harper wants to make the change, he can do by changing the act through Parliament. The federal court has said this is the method to achieve his aims. So far they have tried to change things through other ways and been unsuccessful.

Given the debate I doubt many care.

[madmax]

According to the latest poll from the CWB, Farmers want dual market or open market for their Malt Barley....63%

You can't have a "dual" market.

[Alta4ever]

According to the latest poll from the CWB, Farmers want dual market or open market for their Malt Barley....63%

Isn't that number rather close to the pleblisite?

[Alta4ever]

You can't have a "dual" market.

Yes you can, even if dobbin is right about NAFTA and WTO, they are just wrinkles that will have to be ironed out. If it is the will of the people it will be done.

[jdobbin]

Really you think so huh? I managed a farm book of business when I worked for the local insurance agency of more then 1000 farms. I live in a major farming community, both my in laws and my whole family farm. So you were saying?

I have no reason to believe anything you say. It isn't like someone will know based on your anonymity here.

If someone really knew the Wheat Board Act, they would know that it was changed in 1998 to stop unilateral changes. Harper keeps trying to do this through the back door when the act states it has to be an act of Parliament.

Edited June 26, 2008 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

Yes you can, even if dobbin is right about NAFTA and WTO, they are just wrinkles that will have to be ironed out. If it is the will of the people it will be done.

Please show me where you can. It isn't a wrinkle to be ironed out. It is a simple fact.

Please look up state trading enterprises under WTO guidelines. They are only allowed to operate where they have a monopoly. Once the monopoly is gone, they would be subject to substantial penalties. There is no allowance of a dual market for a state enterprise where penalties don't arise.

And those doing the penalizing just don't pick grain. They go after multiple areas of the economy.

Think it won't work? Ask the Americans who got hammed by the Europeans when they tried to support their steel industry. The penalties made Congress and Bush back off because it would have hurt multiple levels of the U.S. economy.

[Alta4ever]

Please show me where you can. It isn't a wrinkle to be ironed out. It is a simple fact.

Please look up state trading enterprises under WTO guidelines. They are only allowed to operate where they have a monopoly. Once the monopoly is gone, they would be subject to substantial penalties. There is no allowance of a dual market for a state enterprise where penalties don't arise.

And those doing the penalizing just don't pick grain. They go after multiple areas of the economy.

Think it won't work? Ask the Americans who got hammed by the Europeans when they tried to support their steel industry. The penalties made Congress and Bush back off because it would have hurt multiple levels of the U.S. economy.

A substantial penalty? It would just mean a little negociation and restructure of the CWB.

[Alta4ever]

I have no reason to believe anything you say. It isn't like someone will know based on your anonymity here.

If someone really knew the Wheat Board Act, they would know that it was changed in 1998 to stop unilateral changes. Harper keeps trying to do this through the back door when the act states it has to be an act of Parliament.

Fine that must be why we know everything you spew is crap.

Dobbin I know the farming community here a lot better then someone who gauges their support for a program based on the few protesters they see out their window in Downtown Winnipeg.

Unlike you I actually network with people outside of my area, my job (which is in insurance services now) takes me across this county on a regular basis. If fact I was in Winnipeg for the Brokers Convention in May. You may not beleive a think I write, but I guess that is just you not wanting to face what the political reality of this subject is here in Alberta.

[Fortunata]

Fine that must be why we know everything you spew is crap.

Dobbin I know the farming community here a lot better then someone who gauges their support for a program based on the few protesters they see out their window in Downtown Winnipeg.

Unlike you I actually network with people outside of my area, my job (which is in insurance services now) takes me across this county on a regular basis. If fact I was in Winnipeg for the Brokers Convention in May. You may not beleive a think I write, but I guess that is just you not wanting to face what the political reality of this subject is here in Alberta.

My parents and brothers are actual Alberta farmers and they all support the CWB. Maybe you don't want to face that there are Albertans that don't share your opinion.

[Alta4ever]

My parents and brothers are actual Alberta farmers and they all support the CWB. Maybe you don't want to face that there are Albertans that don't share your opinion.

They may not there are few that exist out here, but the vast majority is against it.

[jdobbin]

Fine that must be why we know everything you spew is crap.

I assume by "we", you must man the right wing. I'm hurt.

Dobbin I know the farming community here a lot better then someone who gauges their support for a program based on the few protesters they see out their window in Downtown Winnipeg.

Unlike you I actually network with people outside of my area, my job (which is in insurance services now) takes me across this county on a regular basis. If fact I was in Winnipeg for the Brokers Convention in May. You may not beleive a think I write, but I guess that is just you not wanting to face what the political reality of this subject is here in Alberta.

As I said, I have no reason to believe a word about your personal life. It is like someone regaling me with how many Phds they have as evidence of their vast knowledge.

I keep hearing about how the vast majority want the Board gone but see poll tracking suggesting that Board still has popular support. I also witness how the Conservatives try to make changes using illegal and bullying tactics all the while misleading people with "having their cake and eating it too" questions posed on polls that other pollsters called confusing and leading.

And somehow I am being to told to believe the anecdotal evidence of an anonymous poster or says dual marketing wanted is possible and that it is only a wrinkle to figure out? Perhaps Conservatives can honestly explain how that wrinkle is going to be ironed out. I'm sure there might be some very surprised farmers who find out the Board closes the day it loses its monopoly.

[jdobbin]

They may not there are few that exist out here, but the vast majority is against it.

And you have the anonymous anecdotal evidence to prove it.

[blueblood]

But not in the same jurisdiction.

We don't face countervailing duties in Ontario because the Canadian Wheat Board does not buy Ontario wheat to market it. The Ontario Wheat Board is a marketing board which is similar to things like the egg marketing board.

Then you are proposing that the Canadian Wheat Board simply become a marketing board. Under WTO rules, marketing boards are only allowed in each province. It couldn't operate for all of western Canada.

Quite simply, the WTO rules don't allow for a state trading enterprise to run unless it has a monopoly.

Then why does the Ontario wheat board exist, the CWB does not have a monopoly over all Canadian grain, therefore Canadian grain is in a dual market situation.

Hypothetically a person could own land in Western Canada and be in cahoots with a family member in Thunder Bay. He can figure out the best price either open market or CWB. If it's economically feasible to truck grain to T Bay, there is little stopping the farmer from doing so.

[jdobbin]

Then why does the Ontario wheat board exist, the CWB does not have a monopoly over all Canadian grain, therefore Canadian grain is in a dual market situation.

The Ontario Wheat Board is a volunteer marketing board. Those are allowed under WTO guidelines only if they are provincially run although the last WTO talks were aimed at ending marketing boards for things like eggs and dairy as well as wheat.

Federal state trading enterprises are only allowed if they have a monopoly in the jurisdiction they are operating in. In this case: western Canada is the Canadian Wheat Board's monopoly territory.

Hypothetically a person could own land in Western Canada and be in cahoots with a family member in Thunder Bay. He can figure out the best price either open market or CWB. If it's economically feasible to truck grain to T Bay, there is little stopping the farmer from doing so.

Except the law.

[blueblood]

The Ontario Wheat Board is a volunteer marketing board. Those are allowed under WTO guidelines only if they are provincially run although the last WTO talks were aimed at ending marketing boards for things like eggs and dairy as well as wheat.

Federal state trading enterprises are only allowed if they have a monopoly in the jurisdiction they are operating in. In this case: western Canada is the Canadian Wheat Board's monopoly territory.

Except the law.

That situation would be next to impossible to prove in court. A person can sell grain and barley without the board to livestock producers. The livestock producers can do whatever they like with the grain.

Your last point touches on another issue. The tories are pressing very hard to keep those marketing boards at the WTO talks, which is surprising in your case. I'm now starting to believe that the tories will turn the CWB into some puppet organization with provincial marketing boards filling in the voids like you suggested. Of course that is pure speculation.

The farmers will get their marketing choice with the provincial boards/open markets.

The CWB still exists, but in a new role like various federal departments setting national standards, like the CRTC.

I can't see that being too bad.

[jdobbin]

That situation would be next to impossible to prove in court. A person can sell grain and barley without the board to livestock producers. The livestock producers can do whatever they like with the grain.

So, in other words, some people are prepared to break the law because they can get away with it.

Your last point touches on another issue. The tories are pressing very hard to keep those marketing boards at the WTO talks, which is surprising in your case. I'm now starting to believe that the tories will turn the CWB into some puppet organization with provincial marketing boards filling in the voids like you suggested. Of course that is pure speculation.

It would help if they just came out and said that they would break up the Wheat Board into marketing boards for each province. I'm not entirely certain that is what farmers have said to the Tories in their poll.

The farmers will get their marketing choice with the provincial boards/open markets.

The CWB still exists, but in a new role like various federal departments setting national standards, like the CRTC.

I can't see that being too bad.

There can be no federal role once the state trading enterprise loses its monopoly.

[blueblood]

So, in other words, some people are prepared to break the law because they can get away with it.

It would help if they just came out and said that they would break up the Wheat Board into marketing boards for each province. I'm not entirely certain that is what farmers have said to the Tories in their poll.

There can be no federal role once the state trading enterprise loses its monopoly.

Yes people are prepared to break the law because they can get away with it, that's one of the pillars behind crime occuring in the first place.

I think it is a possibility that's what could happen, most farmers want dual marketing, and as you pointed out this "solution" might be the only way to pull it off.

I'm saying the CWB might not be a state trading enterprise in the first place. It would turn into the "Queen of England" powerwise so to speak. It's existence would be entirely political and powerless, with the "board power" in marketing boards and the open market.

[jdobbin]

Yes people are prepared to break the law because they can get away with it, that's one of the pillars behind crime occuring in the first place.

I doubt many farmers want to go that trouble.

I think it is a possibility that's what could happen, most farmers want dual marketing, and as you pointed out this "solution" might be the only way to pull it off.

I'm saying the CWB might not be a state trading enterprise in the first place. It would turn into the "Queen of England" powerwise so to speak. It's existence would be entirely political and powerless, with the "board power" in marketing boards and the open market.

I think the cake and eat it too is a bit of fantasy on the part of some on the right.

The Wheat Board would simply cease to exist because even as a state marketing board, it would be illegal. It might break down to provincial boards but I don't farmers have ever been asked if that is what they want in their "dual market."

Edited June 27, 2008 by jdobbin

[Wild Bill]

The Wheat Board would simply cease to exist because even as a state marketing board, it would be illegal. It might break down to provincial boards but I don't farmers have ever been asked if that is what they want in their "dual market."

Just curious. During the Chretien/Martin years, did anybody ever ask the prairie farmers how they felt?

Or did all this resentment spring up the weekend after Harper was elected?

I realize this is a silly question to ask. After all, we all know there was never a greater populist than the "petit gar from Shawinigan".

[charter.rights]

Just curious. During the Chretien/Martin years, did anybody ever ask the prairie farmers how they felt?

Or did all this resentment spring up the weekend after Harper was elected?

I realize this is a silly question to ask. After all, we all know there was never a greater populist than the "petit gar from Shawinigan".

From what I remember, the majority of farmers expressed support for the Wheat Board. The grumblings come from a few Reformers who are also farmers who, like modern Conservatives don't like the majority rule.

[jdobbin]

Just curious. During the Chretien/Martin years, did anybody ever ask the prairie farmers how they felt?

Or did all this resentment spring up the weekend after Harper was elected?

I realize this is a silly question to ask. After all, we all know there was never a greater populist than the "petit gar from Shawinigan".

Actually, they did. It was in 1998 that farmers became part of the Board directorship and changes were made to ensure that unilateral decisions could not be made by the Feds alone. It required an act of Parliament to make the changes. Essentially, the organizational was to be more farmer run.

Support for the Wheat Board was to be polled every year and it has remained about 55 to 60% throughout that time.

There has never been a time when support for the Wheat Board as an organization has slipped below 50% in the west.

Harper has been trying to make changes in defiance of the Act while shutting down the Board from responding to how those changes would affect the company. The courts have slapped the Tories down each time.

There is a lot of confusion that the Board might somehow be able to operate and farmers would have a choice about trucking their product to the States or selling to the Board. The truth is that once the market is opened, the Board will shut down.

There has not been a poll yet that indicated the farmers wanted the Board shut down or to mimic what Ontario has with its provincial wheat board.

This requires an honest debate and there can not be a gag on the Wheat Board from telling farmers the implications of any decision made. Harper has not been transparent on the issue. Idealogically, he wants the Board and all marketing boards gone but it isn't entirely clear that is what farmers want. He is selling as "choice" when there may not be any Board choice at all when he is done.

Edited June 27, 2008 by jdobbin