Harper Accuses Liberals

[stignasty]

That language is uncalled for, but is Harper doing any worse than the many spurious malicious smear jobs against Harper on here - I don't think so.

The difference being, of course, that the posters on this forum are not the Prime Minister of Canada.

[Figleaf]

But how do you know that there was no proof in the report?

No sources were name. No evidence was provided when Newman made his presentation.

How do you know?

Does that fuel your anger?

What are you on about?

[Figleaf]

Who cares what Don Newman says? He makes things up as he goes along anyway.

Prove it.

[Figleaf]

Bullshit. There are limits of decency and Harper is too often on the wrong side of them.

Yes, well, of course he is. He's a conservative, and you're a rabid leftist who despises conservatives.

Do you honestly think that it's AOK for one parliamentarian to make absolutely fabricated smears of other parliamentarians? Do you really think that partisanship is the only reason someone might object to vicious slurs coming from our leader of government? What kind of person would you have to be to honestly believe that?

Oh wait, you're a centrist. I keep forgetting, for some reason.

I think I know the reason, but if I shared it with you I'd violate the rules of the forum.

[Figleaf]

Maybe it has something to do with answering insulting, self-serving questions from dishonest men and women oozing phony self-righteous concern about issues they care nothing about in hopes of striking political points?

You think Steve has that kind of disdain for his caucus!?

[madmax]

Harper was rude and ignorant. Simply trying to score cheap political points for his observers. Typical Harper. O Conner is caught in a lie with his pants down. But somehow this is good for our country and troops according to the apologists here.

Keep on cheering the scoring of political points while the incompetence is rewarded.

There is nothing good about any of this. It always seems that when the subject comes up that can affect our country the Liberals and Conservatives are more concerned about each other then the problem.

Prisoners are missing in typical Afghan fashion. Other countries have controls in place. The best answer the CPC have is to blame the Liberals.

Get the controls in place. Is that too much to ask?

[Figleaf]

What the fuck do you mean 'called to account'??? They have nothing to account for. They weren't called to account, they were the target of a false, filthy Harper smearjob.

False? I don't think so. I think Harper was accurate.

Total crap. Give me one shred of geniune reason to believe that the Liberals would care more about Talibans than Canadians. You can't. It's scurrilous. It's an attack that's beneath even a tory.

As he said, they never ask questions about the well-being of Canadian soldiers.

Prove it.

They only ask questions about the well-being of Taliban prisoners.

They ask questions about whatever the issues are.

That is an accurate statement.

It's a lie.

And their continues sniveling and whining and demands for O'Connor to resign(?!)

'Cause he lied to Parliament!

[Figleaf]

Nobody gives two shits about Taliban prisoners except people who want to use this to attack Harper.

I care about Canada's international reputation as a reasonable, human rights respecting country. I also care about the institution of Parliament and object when ministers of the crown mislead it. I know that Conservatives don't give a shit about our institutions, but some of the rest of us do.

O'Connor said that he knew where they were and what their condition was. He doesn't know either.

Are you suggesting Canada should take control of Afghan prisoners in Afghanistan?

I would suggest that ministers who don't know something shouldn't make up a fake answer. I would suggest that if Canada can't run a war properly, it should get out of there.

[Figleaf]

Time for the Liberals to take our soldiers lives and well-being seriously.

What possible reason would you think that they don't already???

Because they never have before.

Lie.

[Figleaf]

I see, your partisan-mind-lock leaves you thinking that Don Newman, dean of Canadian political reporters, makes up stories. Yeah, that seems likely.

ROFL! If Newman could get a job doing the Weather on a local American television station he'd be down south so fast his collection of phony hair pieces would leave a hundred mile trail to the border.

Does it ever bother you that nothing you say has the remotest shred of truth or value?

[Figleaf]

Starving the Canadian Forces ...

Let's try to remember the facts, shall we? Serious money had started to flow into the forces already under Chretien, and accelerated under Martin. Steve has continued this.

Bullshit. ...

It's not bullshit, its a historical fact.

[Figleaf]

What the fuck do you mean 'called to account'??? They have nothing to account for. They weren't called to account, they were the target of a false, filthy Harper smearjob.

That language is uncalled for, but is Harper doing any worse than the many spurious malicious smear jobs against Harper on here - I don't think so.

How about YOU watch YOUR language and I'LL watch mine?

And since you can't seem to discern any difference between the expatiations of posters on a web board and the statements of the Prime Minister in the House of Commons, I think that's about all anyone can ask of you.

[Leafless]

How about YOU watch YOUR language and I'LL watch mine?

Are you still here?

[Keepitsimple]

What a smug little bunch of posters we have, sitting in their comfortable little homes and talking about Human Rights for the Taliban. Yes, we should make efforts to ensure that prisoners are treated fairly but let's be honest with ourselves. Imagine if here in Canada, we had terrorists running around cutting people's heads off, conducting suicide missions that killed innocents, blew up schools, and killed teachers. Now imagine this was going on every day and we managed to capture hundreds of them and put them in jail. Do you think that some of our own prison guards wouldn't be taking liberties where these prisoners might have an "accident" every now and then? I'll bet many of them wouldn't make it to jail. War is dirty - it's not pretty and it's not perfect. So let's get off of our high horses and understand what a difficult job this is - not only for our own soldiers but for the Afghans as well. Many of these prisoners have killed scores of families. We'll all human and we all have failings...it would even happen in Canada - believe it.

[jdobbin]

What a smug little bunch of posters we have, sitting in their comfortable little homes and talking about Human Rights for the Taliban. Yes, we should make efforts to ensure that prisoners are treated fairly but let's be honest with ourselves. Imagine if here in Canada, we had terrorists running around cutting people's heads off, conducting suicide missions that killed innocents, blew up schools, and killed teachers. Now imagine this was going on every day and we managed to capture hundreds of them and put them in jail. Do you think that some of our own prison guards wouldn't be taking liberties where these prisoners might have an "accident" every now and then? I'll bet many of them wouldn't make it to jail. War is dirty - it's not pretty and it's not perfect. So let's get off of our high horses and understand what a difficult job this is - not only for our own soldiers but for the Afghans as well. Many of these prisoners have killed scores of families. We'll all human and we all have failings...it would even happen in Canada - believe it.

Get things straight. This is about O'Connor saying that Canada wouldn't use torture to extract information nor rendition prisoners to get that sort of information. Why? Because of the tendency to get false positive statements.

Don't believe that? Ask the Generals what they think of 24 and its instant torture scenes that routinely get the right information at the right time.

O'Connor smugly stated he knew the condition of prisoners and he knew where they were. He doesn't. That's a danger to Canada.

If some of the super Harper supporters here really thought about it, they would see this undermines whatever support Canadians soldiers have in the towns and villages they go to. They would also see the not knowing where prisoners are poses a danger to Canadian lives.

[Figleaf]

The sad thing is the missing prisoners might end up killing Canadian soldiers.

We're at war. It's part of the risk.

Speaking as a citizen and a liberal (small 'l'), I feel it is the duty of the government to protect it's soldiers from unnecessary dangers.

But I suppose conservatives are more likely to take the view of WWI generals or Rumsfeldian deadly-debacle-planners.

[Figleaf]

How about YOU watch YOUR language and I'LL watch mine?

Are you still here?

No, I'm back. Went, ate some delicious Roganjosh, now I'm enjoying a nice single malt.

[Figleaf]

What a smug little bunch of posters we have, sitting in their comfortable little homes and talking about Human Rights for the Taliban. Yes, we should make efforts to ensure that prisoners are treated fairly but let's be honest with ourselves. Imagine if here in Canada, we had terrorists running around cutting people's heads off, conducting suicide missions that killed innocents, blew up schools, and killed teachers. Now imagine this was going on every day and we managed to capture hundreds of them and put them in jail. Do you think that some of our own prison guards wouldn't be taking liberties where these prisoners might have an "accident" every now and then?

So what are you saying then? DON'T put proper protocols in place?? DON'T at least do what the Dutch are doing already??? DON'T speak the truth in the House???? What are you saying?????

I'll bet many of them wouldn't make it to jail. War is dirty - it's not pretty and it's not perfect. So let's get off of our high horses and understand what a difficult job this is - not only for our own soldiers but for the Afghans as well.

I don't hear anyone saying heads should roll over the lost detainees -- just get the proper methods in place.

Don't bitch that the opposition raised the point, just do the job. Don't have ministers spew statements of convenience in Parliament regardless of the facts. Don't accuse the opposition of disloyalty and worse. Just do the job, Steve.

[madmax]

What a smug little bunch of posters we have, sitting in their comfortable little homes and talking about Human Rights for the Taliban. Yes, we should make efforts to ensure that prisoners are treated fairly but let's be honest with ourselves. Imagine if here in Canada, we had terrorists running around cutting people's heads off, conducting suicide missions that killed innocents, blew up schools, and killed teachers. Now imagine this was going on every day and we managed to capture hundreds of them and put them in jail. Do you think that some of our own prison guards wouldn't be taking liberties where these prisoners might have an "accident" every now and then? I'll bet many of them wouldn't make it to jail. War is dirty - it's not pretty and it's not perfect. So let's get off of our high horses and understand what a difficult job this is - not only for our own soldiers but for the Afghans as well. Many of these prisoners have killed scores of families. We'll all human and we all have failings...it would even happen in Canada - believe it.

Nazi Germany did horrific acts to 10s of millions of people.

Don't act so smug yourself.

Incompetence should not be applauded but corrected.

[PolyNewbie]

I'm a small c citizen, lets talk about Harper and see if Harper and his little group of thugs is actually worse than the Taliban.

- Harper is implementing the North American Union by "stealth" - his own word. They want to privatize everything including police and prisons.

- We are at war in Afghanistan to restore and maintain the heroine trade (see UN stats on this) and to put a gas pipeline in place so that we can hoard it from the Russians and Europeans. Anyone who still believes 911 wasn't an inside job needs to get their head out of the sand. Don't be the last one to come to the realization that the US government did 911. The physical evidence alone proves it. We are not in Afghanistan to protect us from terrorists.

- The industrial base can build wealth for citizens of this country is being taken off shore. Once we lose the machines that build the machines that build the machines there will be no chance of rebuilding that wealth. Haprper is working hard to make this happen.

- The people we are joining (USA) are involved in the child sex trade. Lobbyists in Washington are trying to prevent US citizens from being prosecuted in the US for participating in the sex trade abroad. This has been reported in many main stream sources.

- Trillions of dollars have dissapeared from the US treasury. One trillion is enough to buy 166 fully equiped Nimitz class nuclear aircraft carriers so this isn't normal transaction losses. Its enough for 1000 nuclear powered Los Angeles submarines.

- The USA invaded Iraq to break it up into three countries. The Iraq war is going perfectly despite what Wolf Blitzer says. Its all in the Clash Of Civilizations. Its got nothing to do with terrorism or oil - its about control and forming world government. Iraq was the only country in the middle east where Jews, Muslims and Christians sat down at the same table to govern. Education was free. Iraq was nationalist. These are the reasons why Iraq was destroyed.

- RFID chips were not invented for dogs and cats. They were invented for us.

- Haper wants to open our borders like they are in the USA. We will become a continent of cheap labour as they destroy the middle class.

The name of the game is fear and increduluity.

With a privatitized police and prison system, how long will be be before the police drive patrol looking for attractive kids to send them off to Haliburton ? When this happens will anyone say anything ? If you think I am being foolish look at what you already accept as reality without question.

[Argus]

"...you're a rabid leftist who despises conservatives.

Oh wait, you're a centrist. I keep forgetting, for some reason. LOL

And your allegience doesn't rest at Harper's feet?

No. I'm no great fan of Stephen Harper. He's simply the best of a bad lot as far as I'm concerned. Real leadership has been a scarce commodity in this country for decades.

But at least I don't pretend I'm a centrist.

[Argus]

Well, the guy who started this all off, a University of Ottawa lawyer named Amir Attaran, has popped his head up again. He was the fellow who "uncovered" the three Afghans who appeared to have been mistreated while in Canadian hands but they could no longer find them. At the time, he claimed that he had no political axe to grind and in fact, there was no proof that anything wrong had happened. In an article from Tuesday's Toronto Star - that bastion of objectivity - here's what he had to say:

University of Ottawa lawyer Amir Attaran, who first raised questions about the treatment of detainees handed over by Canadian soldiers, said both O'Connor and Hillier should resign – O'Connor for misleading the House and Hillier for having signed the detainee agreement without monitoring ability.

Now....does that sound like someone who wants to be seen as politically neutral?

Link: http://www.thestar.com/News/article/193830

I think what we need in Afghanistan is more dedicated lawyers willing to risk their lives for the well-being of the Afghan people. I vote we draft a few, like this guy, and send them to Afghanistan to work on human rights issues.

[Argus]

We're at war. It's part of the risk.

That's like telling cops that it is part of the risk when someone is released from jail mistakenly.

Risk comes from doing a dangerous job. It shouldn't come because your boss can't keep track of the people removed from the battlefield.

Let me get this straight. You're suggesting we keep track of everyone we turn over to the Afghan's indefinitely? How are we supposed to do that? Do you want teams of swat guys, maybe JTF2 to continually tracel the country to check out every prison and to visit with every individual we've turned over to THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT to ensure they're being treated with kindess and respect?

[Argus]

Should canada not be taking any prisoners of war then?

O'Connor was quite clear that Canada would not turn over prisoners if they were subject to torture or if there was no way to keep track of them.

That isn't an answer to the question. Should we take no prisoners, then? Or should be start our own prison and keep them there? If so do we have to treat them according to the Charter? Do we have to send over teams of lawyers and health care workers and prison guards? And how long do we keep them? Can we ever turn them over to their own government or, when we leave, presumably in a few years, do we have to bring them back to Canada?

I don't expect an answer to any of this, btw. You guys are just snivelling for no reason. You haven't thought things through and you don't really give a crap about these missing prisoners anyway.

[Argus]

Bullshit. There are limits of decency and Harper is too often on the wrong side of them.

Yes, well, of course he is. He's a conservative, and you're a rabid leftist who despises conservatives.

Do you honestly think that it's AOK for one parliamentarian to make absolutely fabricated smears of other parliamentarians?

I don't think it was a smear.

Do you really think that partisanship is the only reason someone might object to vicious slurs coming from our leader of government?

When those slurs were coming from the last Liberal government and directed towards the opposition you and the rest of the self-righteous crowd here were entirely silent.