9/11

Riverwind · February 17, 2007

The US gov had to be involved to get the military to stand down
On that point you are correct.

On that point he is full of it. The incompetence and confusion is the most plausible explanation for the lack of an air response on 9/11. Poly loves to rehash the testimony of one witness at the 9/11 commission who claimed their was a stand down order but he ignores the fact that confusion in the command chain would also explain such an order - if it was actually given.

BayLee · February 17, 2007

On that point he is full of it. The incompetence and confusion is the most plausible explanation for the lack of an air response on 9/11. Poly loves to rehash the testimony of one witness at the 9/11 commission who claimed their was a stand down order but he ignores the fact that confusion in the command chain would also explain such an order - if it was actually given.

All those planes being allowed to fly across America air space for so long shows he has a point.

Riverwind · February 17, 2007

All those planes being allowed to fly across America air space for so long shows he has a point.

What are you talking about?

PolyNewbie · February 17, 2007

Riverwind:What are you talking about?

I think BayLee is refering to those hijacked jets that they never intercepted after the first attack in NY.

I guess the military missing those is another one of those 911 coincidences. It doesn't have anything to do with the congressional testimony regarding Cheneys orders to stand down...

PolyNewbie · February 17, 2007

Riverwind:Poly loves to rehash the testimony of one witness at the 9/11 commission who claimed their was a stand down order but he ignores the fact that confusion in the command chain would also explain such an order - if it was actually given.

Two - and it was congressional testimony. Are you suggesting that those guys just lied ? Perhaps they were working for Osama and part of the conspiracy to make 911 look like an inside job ?

PolyNewbie · February 17, 2007

Baylee, do you know anything about physics ? If so ask Riverwind to explain 911 physics for you 8-)

Riverwind · February 17, 2007

Two - and it was congressional testimony. Are you suggesting that those guys just lied?

Even if they were telling the truth there is nothing in their testimony that explains why such an order was given. My feeling is that if such an order was given then the most likely explaination is that their was a lot of confusion in the command chain and people did not know what to do.

BayLee · February 17, 2007

Riverwind:What are you talking about?

I think BayLee is refering to those hijacked jets that they never intercepted after the first attack in NY.

imony regarding Cheneys orders to stand down...

Thats exactly what I meant

Riverwind · February 17, 2007

I think BayLee is refering to those hijacked jets that they never intercepted after the first attack in NY.
Thats exactly what I meant

As I said, the jets were not shot down because of the total confusion in the air force command chain. This confusion is well documented but ignored by truthies.

jbg · February 17, 2007

I think BayLee is refering to those hijacked jets that they never intercepted after the first attack in NY.
Thats exactly what I meant
As I said, the jets were not shot down because of the total confusion in the air force command chain. This confusion is well documented but ignored by truthies.

Yet another conspiracy theorist says that Flight 93 was in fact shot down. I guess psychotics can't agree on anything.

PolyNewbie · February 17, 2007

Riverwind:As I said, the jets were not shot down because of the total confusion in the air force command chain. This confusion is well documented but ignored by truthies.

Confusion is well documented in confusing explanations. I don't think confusion can be blamed on three buildings collapsing straight down in one day without any controlled demolition.

Do you think Cheneys stand down order was a product of this confusion ?

What about the "annonymous" put options. One would have to be confused to believe you can buy stock annonymously.

jbg:Yet another conspiracy theorist says that Flight 93 was in fact shot down. I guess psychotics can't agree on anything.

I think lawyers are generally confused people who have a job that involves robbing people and making things administratively difficult rather than dealing with facts.

If you think this is a stupid thread then why not either (1) go elsewhere (2) show off some of that wonderful intelligence and integrity that lawyers always bragging about. It just seems stupid to me to continuously participate in something that you believe is stupid.

I think 911 is the event of our century and not only has the event caused the deaths of 3000 people directly, but around 10,000 - 12,000 American soldiers + 500,000 or so Iraqui deaths, countless Afgan deaths, the police state, the declining real economy, and many future wars that Bush has planned against other nations that do not have private central banks such as Iran & Syria.

I think maybe its time for jbg to grow up and realize the seriousness of the matter, the stupidity of automatically believing everything the government says, and the fact that if you are in favour of war then you should sign up because Canada & USA are short of people willing to lay their lives on the line for imperial ambitions. Or are you just in favour of having other people fight and die for your stock portfolio jbg ?

So when are you going to sign up jbg ? Protect us from those terrorists in these wars that you speak so fondly of. Its called "putting your money where your mouth is". Try it sometime. Weasel.

Riverwind · February 17, 2007

Do you think Cheneys stand down order was a product of this confusion ?

You have no idea who actually issued any stand down order if there actually was a one issued. You yourself switch between claiming it was Cheney or Rumsfeld depending on who is your bete noir for the day.

What about the "anonymous" put options. One would have to be confused to believe you can buy stock anonymously.

The stock market activity was not that unusual. Several other times during the year the same stocks had even higher numbers of options being traded. Furthermore, American had just issued a profit warning 2 day before which means it would be extremely unusual if no one was shorting that stock on 9/11.

Catchme · February 17, 2007

There was stand downs orders a google search will provide plenty of evidence. It seems some forget info is but a serach engine away when they are making false claims there was no stand down order.

Yet air defense units that were READY AND WAITING on 9.11 at DOZENS of nearby installations were ordered NOT to scramble interceptors: they were ordered to stand down from carrying out even the FIRST STAGE of STANDARD INTERCEPT PROCEDURES.
These orders came from the executive office of the president as well as from complicit individuals in the aforementioned NMCC.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/air_defenses_s...lerts_given.htm

There is a text document of cheney's standown order in fact his standdown order was at first confused with a shoot down order.

NATIONAL COMMISSION ON TERRORIST ATTACKS UPON THE UNITED STATES
Public Hearing

Friday, May 23, 2003

Hart Senate Office Building

Room 216

Washington, DC

[the following Cheney stand down order is confused for a shoot down order]

NewsMine : 9 11 : norad faa response : cheney stand down order.txt

http://newsmine.org/archive/9-11/norad-faa...-down-order.txt

Then more here at Standdown, in fact there is a huge amount of info there.

http://standdown.net/

PN I would suggest you go there and start mining all the documentation, intead of getting so frustrated with those who are trying to deny it.

PolyNewbie · February 17, 2007

Riverwind:You yourself switch between claiming it was Cheney or Rumsfeld depending on who is your bete noir for the day.

You got me there. I usually refer to them as the "WMD Twins". They have been playing the "WMD / secret intelligence/ don't ask questions" gig now since Russia wanted to stop the cold war.

PolyNewbie · February 17, 2007

Riverwind:The stock market activity was not that unusual.

CatchMe: I will put references up for this - lets see if it will make a difference.

See Graphic Put Options. I suppose that this is normal statistically ? Tell me what you think.

PolyNewbie · February 17, 2007

CatchMe:PN I would suggest you go there and start mining all the documentation, intead of getting so frustrated with those who are trying to deny it.

No one will ever convince these gentle folk that there government may be culpable in some wrong doing. The only available strategy is to expose them for fools.

Maybe these guys are working for the bankers and the bankers have agreed to fly them to the UK and take their pictures of them kneeling before the queen in return for their web conspiracy debunking efforts.

Catchme · February 17, 2007

No, its not normal statiscally, PolyN. A good many people, know what happened on 911 was not the way it seems. Those who are trying to insist all was normal, in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary, have their own agenda. Ignore them and keep on putting facts up do not let it get personal it defeats the purpose.

From your link.

Morgan Stanley, which saw an average of 27 put options on its stock bought per day before September 6, saw 2,157 put options bought in the three trading days before the attack. Merrill Lynch, which saw an average of 252 put options on its stock bought per day before September 5, saw 12,215 put options bought in the four trading days before the attack. Morgan Stanley's stock dropped 13% and Merrill Lynch's stock dropped 11.5% when the market reopened. 11
Bank of America showed a fivefold increase in put option trading on the Thursday and Friday before the attack.

Riverwind · February 17, 2007

See Graphic Put Options. I suppose that this is normal statistically ? Tell me what you think.

More BS from the truthies. If they were honest they would show chart of the total number of 'put' options and compare it to the number of put options that were present at other times of the year. Any who looks at the raw data can see that the number of put options for UAL was 8,212 on April 6 and 8,212 on March 13. On Sept 6-11 there were only 3150 puts. Only an idiot would claim that what the number of puts on UAL before 9/11 was statistically unusual.

If you look a American you would see that the number of put options on American was actually the highest in the year (4516 puts on Sep 6-11 vs. 2,951 puts on June 19). However, there was a string of bad news coming from AMR at the time:

12:48pm 09/07/01 [AMR] AMR NOTES 'POOR' ECONOMIC CONDITIONS, 'FALLING' DEMAND
12:49pm 09/07/01 [AMR] AMR SAYS DEFERRING JET PURCHASES BEYOND FIRM ORDERS

12:47pm 09/07/01 [AMR] AMR'S AMERICAN RETIRING 5 MORE 727 AIRCRAFT EARLY

12:48pm 09/07/01 [AMR] AMR: AMERICAN TO RETIRE ENTIRE 727 FLEET BY END OF 2002

12:46pm 09/07/01 [AMR] AMR SEES Q3 LOSS 'CONSIDERABLY LARGER' THAN Q2'S

12:47pm 09/07/01 [AMR] AMR ANTICIPATES 'SIGNIFICANT' LOSS IN Q4

12:49pm 09/07/01 [AMR] AMR SAYS CUTTING 2001-02 CAPEX BY NEARLY $1.2 BLN

12:50pm 09/07/01 [AMR] AMERICAN AIR FEELS SQUEEZE OF FUEL PRICES, LABOR COSTS

1:07pm 09/07/01 AMR warns of wider losses - William Spain

2:44pm 09/07/01 Analyst: Airline Stocks Face At Least Another Bad Quarter

2:51pm 09/07/01 [AMR] AMR DOWN 3.4% AT $30.08 FOLLOWING Q3 WARNING

4:04pm 09/07/01 Boeing stock rating cut over commercial growth - August Cole

IOW, there were concerns that all airlines were going to issue profit warnings in Q3 which means that we should expect to see people short selling airline related stocks before 9/11.

The 'unusal stock market activity' claim is just another piece of fiction invented by truthies that are desperate to find support for their bizarre theories.

PolyNewbie · February 17, 2007

See Catchme, I told you it wouldn't make any difference. Even when the numbers are put right in front of them they still try to cloud the issue. Anyone can see that there was an unusually large number of put options placed just before September 11.

Also the oligarchy is happy to send thousands of young men and women to their deaths but would not invetsigate the "annonymous" stock transactions described here. The fact that they were calling the "annonymous" transactions and people didn't question that silliness really shows how truly stupid and brainwashed people are.

Riverwind · February 17, 2007

See Catchme, I told you it wouldn't make any difference. Even when the numbers are put right in front of them they still try to cloud the issue. Anyone can see that there was an unusually large number of put options placed just before September 11.

Your capacity for sell delusion is amazing (perhaps you are unable to read).

1) The number of put options for UAL was nothing unusual compared to other times of the same year.

2) There was lots of financial bad news related to AMR so a large number of put options is _not_ unusual.

Your arguments have once again been shredded yet you try to pretend otherwise. It is kind of pathetic.

PolyNewbie · February 17, 2007

There is a graph on the web somewhere showing the put option ratios on all airlines in the few days before 911. The graph is characterized by sharp spikes on United & American just before 911 in an otherwise low activity 3D graph of all airline derivatives. I can't find it now but there are lots of other links that choose to illustrate it graphically so that it can be seen as obvious.

Riverwind · February 17, 2007

There is a graph on the web somewhere showing the put option ratios on all airlines in the few days before 911. The graph is characterized by sharp spikes on United & American just before 911 in an otherwise low activity 3D graph of all airline stock options. I can't find it now.

The put ratio means nothing. If you want to make a point the only thing that is relevant is the total number of put options. When you look at the total number of put options and the finanical news that was available at the time it is clear that no unusual stock market activity occurred and that the truthies are simply making up data.

PolyNewbie · February 17, 2007

Riverwind:Your capacity for sell delusion is amazing (perhaps you are unable to read).
1) The number of put options for UAL was nothing unusual compared to other times of the same year.

2) There was lots of financial bad news related to AMR so a large number of put options is _not_ unusual.

Your arguments have once again been shredded yet you try to pretend otherwise. It is kind of pathetic

If George Bush himself said there may have been explosives planted in wtc7 would you still stick to your story about the building collapsing exactly like a perfectly executed conventional controlled demolition by accident and as a consequence of fires and damage from falling debris from wtc1 & 2 ?

Riverwind · February 17, 2007

th building collapsing exactly like a perfectly executed conventional controlled demolition by accident and as a consequence of fires and damage from falling debris from wtc1 & 2 ?

I can tell when you are backed into a corner - you try to change the topic. The evidence I posted clearly demostrates that your claims of 'unusual market activity' are baseless. Please explain to us why people would _not_ short AMR stock after seeing the news items that appeared on Sep 7? Please explain why ~3000 put options on UAL is a sign of unusual trading but 8000+ put option on two other days of the year is nothing unusual?

PolyNewbie · February 17, 2007

Riverwind:I can tell when you are backed into a corner - you try to change the topic.

I guess I will answer that on the day you actually back me into a corner. Usually I find you have not the slightest idea of what you are talking about, are poorly read on the topics you discuss and are all too willing to put your own uninformed opinion up as fact.

The evidence I posted clearly demostrates that your claims of 'unusual market activity' are baseless. Please explain to us why people would _not_ short AMR stock after seeing the news items that appeared on Sep 7?

Your list of news comments suggest an increase in derivative activity but not concentrated on those few days. I don't think the pattern is explained by your news items.