9/11

[Riverwind]

But you still think three buildings can collapse at near freefall speed straight down into their own footprints. Thats the key right there

Let's pick on this statement. You claim that the buildings fell at near freefall speed. How was that that measured? What are the sources of error in the measurement? When I was in engineering school they beat it into my head that any measurement reported without its accuracy is not a valid measurement. So what is the accuracy of the measurement for the collapse time?

From what I see on truthie websites this claim is based on video evidence. However, video evidence is very inaccurate because a human observer must decide when the fall started and ended. This is very difficult to do for even the most objective observer because of the cloud of dust obsurs so much. However, the video measurements also depend on the preconceptions of the person doing the measurements. If the person doing the measurements believes that an explosion caused the collapse then that person starts measuring after the first cloud of dust appears. If the person believes a progressive collapse occurred then that person starts measuring when they detect motion before the first cloud of dust appears. So the biases of the observer introduce at least +/-1 second error into any measurement based on video evidence.

I could go on with this analysis but I believe I have made my point. Truthies are drawing conclusions from data which is not necessarily accurate. That means their conclusions are suspect and cannot be taken seriously unless there is other information that corroborates their data (i.e. statements from the people who actually planted the bombs).

So please stop claiming that the buildings collapsed at free fall speed. The only thing that you can claim is the buildings might have fallen at free fall speed but we can't know for certain because it is impossible to measure the collapse precisely enough to make that claim.

[PolyNewbie]

Riverwind:Let's pick on this statement. You claim that the buildings fell at near freefall speed. How was that that measured? What are the sources of error in the measurement? When I was in engineering school they beat it into my head that any measurement reported without its accuracy is not a valid measurement. So what is the accuracy of the measurement for the collapse time?

Wtc7 was easy to time. The initial collapse rate of wtc1 & wtc2 was easy to time. Even the collapse rate aside, where do you think the energy came from those projectiles comming out of the wtc1 & wtc2 while it was exploding collapsing ? - only possible explanation is explosives because things only fall down. Unless the video camera was speeded up while filming the collapse it seems pretty obvious. Multiple independent videos, some broadcast on mainstream show the rapid collapses.

You didn't graduate engineering, don't tell me that. Your free body analysis contained to many errors. A graduate of an engineering class ould not have said I was using non Newtonian physics when I introduced moments into your free body diagram. I was surprised you got a solution to that DE.

Riverwind:So the biases of the observer introduce at least +/-1 second error into any measurement based on video evidence.

I did the calcualtions for pulverizing concrete with some very generous assumptions and came up with that energy alone adding a few seconds to the collapse time. That doesn't count the breaking steel or the projected dust. Judy Wood, a professor of civil engineering and meterial science says it would have taken much longer if it was a pancaked collapse so does Stephen Jones, who has excellent credentials. Hoffman also says the same thing- the speed of collapse shows an energy deficit of a factor of ten according to Hoffman. People like Hoffman and Jones are more than qualified to teach undergrad engineers.

Riverwind:That means their conclusions are suspect and cannot be taken seriously unless there is other information that corroborates their data (i.e. statements from the people who actually planted the bombs).

The people that actually planeted the bombs would be foreign nationals or dead foreign nationals. There is no way the Bush admin would take a chance on that getting out.

[PolyNewbie]

BTW: I've done coursework on deformations and dynamics as well as mechanics.

[PolyNewbie]

I've seen a video of Bush saying there may have been explosives in wtc7 and I saw it the other day. When I find it I will post a link here (but that won't mean anything either). I guess Osama could have sneaked in at night and put them in or something.

I'm really looking forward to the NIST investigation of wtc7. I guess they will say Al_CIA_Da had some insiders sneaking explosives into wtc7.

A BBC documentary called "The Power Of Nightmares" talks about neocon philosophy. Interesting & lots to do with 911 in subject matter (terrorism).

[jbg]

Your black robe will not protect you from the rules of logic and what some people conveniently refer to as common sense.

If a lawyer goes into Court dressed in a black robe, he'd be held in contempt (at least in my country) for imitating a judge. I suppose you don't learn that in your asylum's educational program.

Arguing with lawyers on these forums always reinforces my already low opinion of lawyers, that is that the level of moral corruption that exists in the law profession actually causes you to be intellectually deficient. I have yet to meet a lawyer that can form a logical arguement - likely because courts are all about complex procedures and draining peoples bank accounts rather than logical arguement.

I wish I had more clients that were willing to have their "bank accounts drained". I get stellar results for mine, often. Convincing them to pay is harder than getting results.

On the topic of the (alleged) hijackers:

(1) Its well known that immediately after the attacks the hijackers names were on none of the flight manifests. The stated reasons for this was that "we don't put terrorists on these lists". If they do not put terrorists on flight manifests why do they let them on planes anyway ? Flight manifest are prepared before boarding. The fact that the terrorists were not on the flight manifest after the accidents is well known and well reported in mainstream immediately after the attacks. Hijacker original flight manifests (see about halfway down this page)

I don't know enough to comment. All that I know is that one of my friends' parents tripped over a body and had a miscarriage from the stress. Another was almost hit by flying debris, and if he'd been another meter the wrong way his two children would lack a father.

(2) None of the alleged hijackers could actually fly planes. There is plenty of video interviews with the hijacker instructors explaining that these guys that were receiving flight instruction could barely fly a single engine Cessna.

The hard part is getting the plane to take off (already done) and landing it (not necessary, landed at mid-levels of WTC).

(3) As reported by multiple mainstream sources, many of the hijackers were found alive after the terrorist attacks.

Waleed M. Alshehri

WhatReallyHappened / Hijackers, More mainstream reports

Which ones? That BBC article refers to a mistaken identity problem. It does not say that 19 hijackers didn't power 3 planes into targets, the fourth into the ground.

"Us or them" is the thinking of a simpleton.

No, it's realistic thinking, when you're dealing with people whose idea of constructive activity is to blow up greenhouses that have just been purchased for them for $14 milllion.

[Riverwind]

Wtc7 was easy to time. The initial collapse rate of wtc1 & wtc2 was easy to time.

Measurements with video evidence are _not_ accurate because it is virtually impossible to pinpoint the exact moment when the collapses started and ended.

where do you think the energy came from those projectiles comming out of the wtc1 & wtc2 while it was collapsing?

Gravity. The potential energy in each tower is equivalent to about 200000kg of TNT. Let's put it another way. Assume that the WTC towers had each 1000kg of TNT equivalent in them. This means that these explosives would add a mere 0.5% to the total energy of the system. IOW - the energy added by explosives is insignificant compared to the energy of the entire system. If you claim that explosives would have enough energy to pulverise the concrete slabs then you must also acknowledge that a tiny fraction of the potential energy from the falling building would also have enough energy to pulverize the slabs.

In any case, this is yet another example that demonstrates why the scientific claims of the truthies are inconclusive at best. Why don't you get back to us when 20 or so published experts in structural engineering agree with the truthie analysis and conclusions. Until then your claims of 'proof' are grossly exaggerated and deserve to be dismissed as quackery.

[PolyNewbie]

Riverwind:Let's put it another way. Assume that the WTC towers had each 1000kg of TNT equivalent in them. This means that these explosives would add a mere 0.5% to the total energy of the system. IOW - the energy added by explosives is insignificant compared to the energy of the entire system. If you claim that explosives would have enough energy to pulverise the concrete slabs then you must also acknowledge that a tiny fraction of the potential energy from the falling building would also have enough energy to pulverize the slabs.

Another faulty analysis. You would put the TNT in places to critically damage certain points to cause an orderly and expedient collapse. It was thermate that was used not dynamite.

The pulverization of concrete would add enough time to the collapse as to exceed an expectation uncertainty of measurement of collapse time.

Also nukes were developed by the US in the 50's with the purpose of building demolition in mind so its entirely likely that they were used. There is a lot of physical evidence elluding to nukes being used with the thermate - things like balls of mixed and melted concrete and steel (the "meteor" in 911 Mysteries) and another big slab of melted steel. The physical evidence is very strange and sure doesn't look like pancaking was the cause..

We haven't discussed the physical evidence resulting from the attacks. The evidence is very strange and doesn't suggest a mechanical collapse or overheating due to fires. The physical evidence is stranger that anything else about 911.

The only "quackery" is the NIST report and the official version of 911 which the physical evidence alone shows is all a lie. You do not need a mathemetician to confirm that 2+2 doesn't equal 5.

[Riverwind]

Another faulty analysis. You would put the TNT in places to critically damage certain points to cause an orderly and expedient collapse. It was thermate that was used not dynamite.

Another contradiction - you are the one who tried to claim that the energy to pulverize the slabs had to come from explosives. Furthermore, thermite does not explode - it simply slices metal by overheating it quickly and therefore it could not pulverize the concrete. That implies that the energy to pulverize the concrete must have come from the collapsing building even if explosives were used.

The pulverization of concrete would add enough time to the collapse as to exceed an expectation uncertainty of measurement of collapse time.

Again - that is your opinion that is backed up only by guesses and assumptions that may or may not be correct. You cannot claim it that it has been proven. It clear that you really have no idea what a proof is.

[Canadian Blue]

JBG, Polynewbie believes that all lawyer worship Lucifer, I think Polynewbie needs to go see a therapist pronto before he starts bombing government buildings!!!

[stignasty]

Beating a dead horse

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Flogging a dead horse" is an idiom which means a particular request or line of conversation is already foreclosed, mooted, or otherwise resolved, and any attempt to continue it is futile. In American English, the phrase is more usually rendered as "beating a dead horse"

The phrase originates in 17th century slang, where a "dead horse" was work that was paid for in advance. Flogging, either literally or figuratively, the dead horse was an attempt to coax enthusiasm out of workers who had already been paid and thus were not going to gain any further profit by hard work.

The current use of the phrase to describe futile exhortation is likely due to the fact that most people are unaware of the origins of the idiom, and imagine someone attacking a literal dead horse. This is indeed a pointless activity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beating_a_dead_horse

Idiom: Flogging a dead horse

Idiom Definition

British English

Meaning:

* If someone is trying to convince people to do or feel something without any hope of succeeding, they're flogging a dead horse. This is used when someone is trying to raise interest in an issue that no-one supports anymore; beating a dead horse will not make it do any more work.

http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idio...dead+horse.html

[Riverwind]

Beating a dead horse

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Train wreck

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The term "train wreck" is also used metaphorically to describe something distasteful or disastrous, yet inevitable, or something distasteful yet compelling in some form ("You don't want to stare, but you just can't look away").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_wreck

[PolyNewbie]

Riverwind:Another contradiction - you are the one who tried to claim that the energy to pulverize the slabs had to come from explosives. Furthermore, thermite does not explode - it simply slices metal by overheating it quickly and therefore it could not pulverize the concrete. That implies that the energy to pulverize the concrete must have come from the collapsing building even if explosives were used.

Thermate can be made to explode if the particles are small enough. I don't think it was only thermate that was used. The fact that evidence of thermate was found along with perfectly cut beams (as in a CD) shows that it was sued and this is another way of showing that 911 was an inside job.

Nothing conventional explained the melted mass of concrete and metal mixed togather - thermate doesn't explain that and it doesn't explain a lot of other very strange physical evidence - such as the complete dissapearance of the heavy steel core. No great big pile of twisted metal after the accidents - cars far away exploding from heat radiated, radiation in concrete dust, etc.

Riverwind:Again - that is your opinion that is backed up only by guesses and assumptions that may or may not be correct. You cannot claim it that it has been proven. It clear that you really have no idea what a proof is.

Nope. I did a calculation and assumes the concrete got converted into little spheres that were max size for pyrocrastic flow. The energy required to do this with concrete would add about two seconds to the collapse time. These are very generous assumptions based on what actually happened.

[PolyNewbie]

If you read the quality of debate that I get from CanadianBlue its hard to deny that I have convinced him. All he can do is try and label me an anti semite or a terrorist.

[PolyNewbie]

jbg:Which ones? That BBC article refers to a mistaken identity problem. It does not say that 19 hijackers didn't power 3 planes into targets, the fourth into the ground.

The terrists found alive after 911 are the same terrorists still pictured in the most wanted list. Since their faces are the same the ID arguement is irrelevant unless people that looked just like them stole their ID.

Many mainstream sources have reported the same guys as in the FBI pictures have been found alive afterwards.

This is not surprising, given the nature of the 911 evidence in every other aspect of 911- its always that rediculous. Any way you look at it the official story falls apart. 911 was a psyc op on the American people to pit the classes that think they will benefit from 911 vs the classes that think they will be drafted. Then there is the terminally stupid that will believe the 911 story even though the ones supporting it are either war criminals, intellectuals that study how to propogate propoganada, or people that have just been paid off - such as demolition experts that change their initial opinions from "absolutely CD" to supporting the official version and get big promotions and grants.

As in Oklahoma, Corely and his gang were charged with creating an official investigation. In both cases the FAA and firemarshall were prevented from investigating and in both cases the evidence overwhelmingly points to explosives planted in the building. In Oklahoma some didn't go off and police, fire and mainstream media reports show additional bombs were in the building that didn't go off. In both cases you have experts saying it was CD. What possible motive could these people have in proving CD ?

What you don't realize is that the CFR is now calling for 100 % eradication internally by its members for people over 12 years old (Alex Jones on air). The New World Order isn't going to need lawyers. We have hundreds of concentration camps . Jones has been talking about the camps this week quite a bit.

Alex Jones welcomes any attempts to discredit him on air. You can call his show and your call will not be screened- if you say you dissagree with him you get to the front of the line. I invite any of you to call in and make Jones look like a fool - live and on air with millions of listeners from his web site alone, then there is the radio syndication which gives millions of other listeners.

[jbg]

The terrists found alive after 911 are the same terrorists still pictured in the most wanted list.

What is a "terrist"? Is it perhaps someone found alive, and thus perhaps not a "terrorist"?

[White Doors]

I've seen a video of Bush saying there may have been explosives in wtc7 and I saw it the other day. When I find it I will post a link here (but that won't mean anything either). I guess Osama could have sneaked in at night and put them in or something.

I'm really looking forward to the NIST investigation of wtc7. I guess they will say Al_CIA_Da had some insiders sneaking explosives into wtc7.

A BBC documentary called "The Power Of Nightmares" talks about neocon philosophy. Interesting & lots to do with 911 in subject matter (terrorism).

uhhh.. explosions do not necessarily means 'explosives'. Just one of many many fallacies in the logic of your 'arguments'.

[Canadian Blue]

If you read the quality of debate that I get from CanadianBlue its hard to deny that I have convinced him. All he can do is try and label me an anti semite or a terrorist.

That's funny, considering I called you out on alot of your claim's and asked you why your such an avid supporter of Lyndon Larouche. Besides, I haven't labelled you a terrorist, your definitely an anti-semite since you even said yourself you would be charged with a hate crime.

Listen, I remember providing you a huge list of people who supported the official event's, and you said you would provide two for each one person I got. Yet you weren't able to do that, and I think their's a reason why.

If you read the quality of debate that I get from CanadianBlue its hard to deny that I have convinced him. All he can do is try and label me an anti semite or a terrorist.

You also said you have a degree in engineering, which you do not since your an ELECTRICAL engineer.

You haven't convinced a single person on here.

Let's find some of your common posts on this site:

QUOTE

CanadianBlue:It's really interesting when he gives you a link to a white nationalist website.

Its interesting when you say that because that is a straight out lie. I never gave you such thing. Thats why I don't debate you any more. You are just a scum bag that will say anything. I didn't give you the link and the link was to an article by Paul Craig Roberts but it wasn't for you to read because I don't care what you think.

Here is the site given to us by polynewbie which is VDare.

http://www.vdare.com/roberts/061228_tey.htm

Here is what the Southern Poverty Law Center has to say about VDare:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport...cle.jsp?pid=285

Another link about Vdare from wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VDARE

QUOTE

When you consider your use of the term "anti semetic" is incorrect and molds your thinking you may begin to realize how much of a thought controlled person you are. The Semetic peoples are Arabic not Israeli, but your thinking has been purposely warped to give "Jews" a new name.

QUOTE

I do believe that Israel has an unreasonable amount of control over the USA. I have not yet been convinced that Israel had something to do with 911 - more than Canada and other countries anyway. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that Israel was behind the attacks on 911.

QUOTE

I'm not dodging any of your questions but I will not answer any questions having to do with Jews or the ADL. Someone could misinterpret what I am saying and I could be arrested and thrown in jail just based on the fact that someone chose to misinterpret what I am saying - like you often do on this forum.

QUOTE

The fact is that truth is no defense in a Canadian court room. Its Canadian lawyers that scare me. As far as I am concerned the legal system in Canada is corrupt and I don't want to end up in a court room in front of a judge that changes court transcipts after the hearing is over. I do not want to be threatened and extorted by a gang of Canadian lawyers that worship Lucifer in their spare time and laugh and joke about how corrupt they are.

QUOTE

I'm just a guy with a bachelors degree in engineering

Electrical engineering, not engineering, now you are trying to mislead everyone on here about your qualifications.

Here is a question which didn't even get a response.

QUOTE

HR6166 and The Military Commissions Act means that the government can grab you off the street - its even a crime for anyone to say that they saw you grabbed off the street, and then take you away torture you and kill you. Did you not hear about John Yoo saying that they can torture little kids in front of their parents using genital manipulation ?

Once again, find the actual statute that says the US can kill any person they find on the street, you have not shown me the statute. I'm not going to go looking for it when you made that rediculous claim.

Once again his claim's about Prescott Bush also proved to be false.

QUOTE

This is a thread about 911. I do not care to answer your questions or have a debate about Prescott Bush. The fact that he was arrested during ww2 for supporting Hitler is a matter of public record. It was in the NY Times - there is a clip of it lying around the web somewhere. I don't care what wikipedia says about anything political.

This thread is about 911.

Once again this has everything to do with Lyndon Larouche since I'm talking about motive, and you can't substantiate any of your facts. I use wikipedia due to the fact that at the bottom of the page you will find links and footnotes which can add to the articles unbiased opinion which was based on facts. Larouche has made this claim about Prescott Bush, once again this has everything to do with 9/11.

Polynewbie on Lyndon Larouche:

QUOTE

Sharkman,

I don't actually need your permission to listen to what he says. What he says does make a lot of sense.

The people that put him in jail are probably at least as corrupt as he is and he may have been standing up to them.

As far as him saying there is a great big conspiracy goeing on, he is not alone, but many who have spoken up about it mysteriously die or get locked up on trumped charges, harassed by the FBI, etc. The same sorts of things happened in Germany in the 30's, many honest people were discredited of locked up - its nothing new.

Its about the most interesting thing I have ever heard on the web. LaRouche has real wisdom because he has been around for a long time.

This is an excellent presentation on the USA place in the world and the internal workings of the USA on a macro level.

It ties in the Crusades and why Rumsfeld & the gang are doing evrything they can to destroy the USA (Harper in Canada too) to re ignite the Crusades so that the world population can live under an oligarchy.

The Greatest Crisis In Modern History

Once again Polynewbie has described Lyndon Larouche as a man of wisdom, and made a topic dedicated to him, here is some more info on Lyndon Larouche:

LaRouche has many connections to the racist political right in this country. Richard Lobenthal, Midwest Regional Director for the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith, observes that LaRouche security advisor Roy Frankhauser "has been identified as present with other white supremacists at meetings held at the farm of Pastor Bob Miles in Michigan." Leaders of the notoriously racist and anti-Semitic Aryan Nations have attended the same meetings. "Frankhauser's background and connections are myriad, he is obviously a LaRouchite, he is a professed racist and anti-Semite and was a close associate of neo-Nazi leader George Lincoln Rockwell," says Lobenthal.

LaRouche not only works in coalitions with bigots, he has also propounded ideas which are widely perceived to represent outright racism.

LaRouche, for instance, offended the Hispanic community in a November, 1973 essay (published in both English and Spanish) titled "The Male Impotence of the Puerto-Rican Socialist Party." An internal memo by LaRouche asked "Can we imagine anything more viciously sadistic than the Black Ghetto mother?" He described the majority of the Chinese people as "approximating the lower animal species" by manifesting a "paranoid personality. . . .a parallel general form of fundamental distinction from actual human personalities."

LaRouche's use of hysterical Jewish conspiracy theories for ulterior political motives has lead him to be branded an anti-Semite by several major Jewish groups.

One ADL spokesperson, Irwin Suall, was once sued for defamation by LaRouche for calling him a "small time Hitler." The jury ruled against LaRouche. According to LaRouche, only a million and a half Jews perished in the concentration camps, and they died primarily from overwork, disease, and starvation. This denial of the Holocaust is coupled with pronouncements saying there is nothing left of Jewish culture except what couldn't be sold to Gentiles, or claiming British Jews brought Hitler into power.

While many of the ringleaders of the global conspiracy, according to the LaRouche philosophy, are Jewish, members of the LaRouche group rebut charges of anti-Semitism by pointing out that a number of them--including Janice Hart, former Democratic nominee for the Illinois Secretary of State--are Jewish. The Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith, which has successfully beat back several costly LaRouche lawsuits, rejects this explanation and insists the group is a paranoid, anti-Semitic political cult.

For his part, LaRouche claims to be merely anti-Zionist, not anti-Semitic. Jewish groups and political scientists acknowledge the important distinction, but LaRouche rhetoric--such as leaflets distributed in California bearing the offensive headline "Smash the Kosher Nostra!" and naming a number of Jewish figures as part of a global conspiracy, leaves little doubt.

Since 1976, the NCLC's ties to anti-Semitic, ultra-right groups and individuals have been well documented. LaRouche associates have cultivated ties to Willis Carto, a notorious racist and anti-Semite who helped found Liberty Lobby and the pseudo-scholarly Institute for Historical Review. This latter group publishes "historical revisionist" literature deriding the Nazi Holocaust as a Jewish hoax.

Former staffers at both the Liberty Lobby and LaRouche's NCLC claim the two groups cooperated closely on several projects. In the March 2, 1981 issue of its newspaper Spotlight, Liberty Lobby cynically defended the relationship this way: "It is mystifying why so many anti-communists and `conservatives' oppose the USLP [u.S. Labor Party --the NCLC's original electoral arm]. No group has done so much to confuse, disorient, and disunify the Left as they have. . .the USLP should be encouraged, as should all similar breakaway groups from the Left, for this is the only way that the Left can be weakened and broken."

Linda Ray, the outspoken former member of the LaRouche group, recently published a first-person account of her experiences in the Chicago-based national weekly In These Times. She recalls that after leaving the group, someone showed her a LaRouche organization pamphlet she had once sold on the street. "In it the Jewish symbol, the Star of David, was used as a centerpiece to point to six different aspects of the illegal drug trade. In this context, the Star of David was a symbol of evil." She was shocked when she realized she had not recognized this while still working with LaRouche.

"Many people find it difficult to understand how Jews--such as I--could have worked for an anti-Semitic group. Perhaps the answer is that the members get so hypnotized by the simplistic `good guys and bad guys' approach to history that they do not hear what LaRouche is really saying."

Ray recalls how LaRouche claimed the British were a different "subhuman species" and how his Campaigner magazine concocted the charge that the British created the Nazi movement."Since the blasts were overtly directed against the British, Jewish members often did not recognize the subliminal anti-Semitism of the attacks. LaRouche, like the Ku Klux Klan, Hitler and Goebbels, was attacking the Rothschilds and other British-Jewish banking interests. In the wake of these anti-Semitic writings, many of us were confused. But we continued to defend LaRouche by lamely saying, `We're not anti-Semitic. So many of our members are Jews. We always say in our publications that we are against the Nazis.'

"I remember reading in detail about the `subhuman species' concept. Although I knew it did not make scientific sense, I presumed that it was a deep intellectual metaphor that was over my head." When Ray left the group and finally came to grips with her role as a Jew working in an anti-Semitic organization, she says "It was as if I was waking from a nig htmlare."

LaRouche's relationship with Blacks--including his own Black NCLC members--is similarly confusing and complex. While LaRouche's writings are replete with racialist assertions extolling white Northern European values at the expense of other ethnic values, he has in some cases succeeded in forging alliances with rightist or opportunist black politicians and civil rights leaders, such as Roy Innis of the Congress of Racial Equality (CORE) and Hulan Jack, a former Borough president and powerhouse in the New York

Democratic Party. Articles from LaRouche's Executive Intelligence Review have appeared in publications of Rev. Louis Farrakhan's Nation of Islam. At the same time they are recruiting Blacks, LaRouche publications praise the wisdom of the Botha government in South Africa, and attack those who protest the system of apartheid.

LaRouchian rhetoric can often offend numerous constituencies simultaneously. The July 7, 1986 issue of the Illinois Tribunal, an insert tucked into LaRouche's New Solidarity (now New Federalist) newspaper, covered the Ku Klux Klan counter rally against Chicago's annual Gay Pride parade by charging: "The idea behind the KKK outburst was--amid heavy media coverage of a mere two dozen Klan demonstrators--to make citizens think anyone who wants to take serious measures against AIDS is a cross-burner and a Nazi. . . .In fact, the Klan does not exist--except as a special dirty-tricks operation of the FBI and the B'nai B'rith's Anti-Defamation League. "

The article went on to say the founders of B'nai B'rith were "about as Jewish as Josef Goebbels."When Illinois Congressman Sidney Yates faced LaRouche-backed challenger Sheila Jones, LaRouche supporters distributed leaflets titled "So, What's A Nice Jewish Boy Doing Supporting Sodomy?" Former Chicago mayor Jane Byrne was targetted in one mayoral race with a LaRouche candidate's campaign slogan of "Byrne the Witch."

In attacking political enemies, LaRouche propoganda often utilizes racist, anti-Jewish, sexist or homophobic stereotypes.

Another statement which once again was made that was completely outrageous:

QUOTE

CanadianBlue:Canadian lawyers worship Lucifer [satan]?

Some do. They all wear the robes of Saturn in court which is Satan in their context.

Once again, some basic info on court customs:

In superior courts, lawyers wear black robes and white neck tabs, like barristers in the United Kingdom, but they do not wear wigs. Business attire is appropriate when the lawyer is appearing in a simple bail hearing before a Provincial Court judge or Justice of the Peace oFr advocating at a small claims court.

Judges dress in barrister's robes like the lawyers, however some certain courts have adorned robes with coloured sashes. For example, Federal Court Judges' robes are adorned with a gold sash, and Tax Court of Canada Judges' robes with a purple sash.

[PolyNewbie]

jbg:What is a "terrist"? Is it perhaps someone found alive, and thus perhaps not a "terrorist"?

I just love how you are able to pick apart my arguements with such precision. You must be a highly paid lawyer to be able to do that.

WhiteDoors:uhhh.. explosions do not necessarily means 'explosives'. Just one of many many fallacies in the logic of your 'arguments'.

If something isn't explosive than it can't explode. But maybe those massive explosions are caused by electrical short circuits

[Riverwind]

Nope. I did a calculation and assumes the concrete got converted into little spheres that were max size for pyrocrastic flow. The energy required to do this with concrete would add about two seconds to the collapse time. These are very generous assumptions based on what actually happened.

Right, so how many assumptions did you have to make? How many numbers did you just make up because it is impossible to get the real data? Whatever calculations you used there is a large degree of uncertainty which means your results are inconclusive at best.

For example, your calculations claim that the additional energy required would add 2s seconds to the collapse time. However, any measurement of the collapse time with the data available (seismic or video) has an error of at least 2 seconds. These guys have done a calculation that show the collapse time is closer to 15s. You could nitpick on their methology but it won't eliminate the uncertainity your calculation. Bottom line: you cannot prove that the towers collapsed in 10s so any conclusions you draw based on that data are wrong.

In fact, every piece of scientific analysis done by the truthies has similar flaws - every piece of data they use has a large degree of uncertainty because it can't be measured at all or the measurement techniques available do not allow for much accuracy. This means the truthie anaylsis is inconclusive at best and is not proof of anything.

I should not have to explain this stuff to someone who claims to be an engineer - you should have learned in school.

[PolyNewbie]

Riverwind:In fact, every piece of scientific analysis done by the truthies has similar flaws - every piece of data they use has a large degree of uncertainty because it can't be measured at all or the measurement techniques available do not allow for much accuracy. This means the truthie anaylsis is inconclusive at best and is not proof of anything.

I should not have to explain this stuff to someone who claims to be an engineer - you should have learned in school.

There is always uncertainty to any arguement stating that 911 was an inside job, but there are so many ways of showing this with very high certainty that it is likely to be true.

Here are some

(1) 3 buildings collapseing straight down at near freefall speed.

(2) Cheneys stad down orders

(3) Evidence at base of towers after collapse

(4) Incomplete & delayed investigation (guilty behaviour)

(5) Unusual destruction of evidence

(6) Key people involved in US government being Machevellians/Straussians, of which Carl Schmitt was as well. This philosophy says that its OK to lie to the public, the public are there to serve the needs of the oligarchy and as Kissinger described the army in Vietnam - "...just a bunch of dumb animals". The guys in US government are actually NAZI's because they follow the same philosophers as NAZI's. The are direct philosophical ties to the NAZI's as well as blood/financial (Bushes)

(7) Suspicious crash in Pennyslivania

(8) Suspicious crash in Pentagon

(9) Past behaviour, Oklahoma, wtc93, Kennedy, Iraq war, Haiti war, Afgan war.

(10) Clear & deliberate destructiuon of US economy underway.

(11) Who is getting rich off the wars started by 911 ?

Now, tell me, why do you think Osama did it ?

[PolyNewbie]

Riverwind:In fact, every piece of scientific analysis done by the truthies has similar flaws - every piece of data they use has a large degree of uncertainty because it can't be measured at all or the measurement techniques available do not allow for much accuracy.

I accounted for that. BTW my business is measurement.

[Riverwind]

There is always uncertainty to any argument stating that 911 was an inside job, but there are so many ways of showing this with very high certainty that it is likely to be true.

You provided a list of assertions that are either:

1) Unprovable given the evidence available

2) Have reasonable alternative explanations that do not include an 'inside job'

3) Have absolutely nothing to do with question at hand.

You also ignore much stronger evidence which invalidates your theories. For example, not one collaborator has come forward and explained their part in the cover up. This is not proof in itself but it definitely renders most of your assertions irrelevant. Your counter explaination that they must have been murdered pure is speculation that has no basis in fact.

I accounted for that. BTW my business is measurement.

Then you are obviously not that good at it. The sources of error in measurements by video evidence are painfully obvious yet you have ignored them in your calculations.

[Canadian Blue]

(6) Key people involved in US government being Machevellians/Straussians, of which Carl Schmitt was as well. This philosophy says that its OK to lie to the public, the public are there to serve the needs of the oligarchy and as Kissinger described the army in Vietnam - "...just a bunch of dumb animals". The guys in US government are actually NAZI's because they follow the same philosophers as NAZI's. The are direct philosophical ties to the NAZI's as well as blood/financial (Bushes)

Are you talking about neo-conservatives?

Which philosophers, I thought nazism was started by Adolf Hitler?

Neo-conservatism basically is defined as:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Conservatism

According to Irving Kristol, the founder and "god-father" of Neoconservatism, there are three basic pillars of Neoconservatism:

1. Economics: Cutting tax rates in order to stimulate steady, wide-spread economic growth and acceptance of the necessity of the risks inherent in that growth, such as budget deficits, as well as the potential benefits, such as budget surpluses.

2. Domestic Affairs: Preferring strong government but not intrusive government, slight acceptance of the welfare state, adherence to social conservatism, and disapproval of counterculture

3. Foreign Policy: Patriotism is a necessity, world government is a terrible idea, the ability to distinguish friend from foe, protecting national interest both at home and abroad, and the necessity of a strong military.

Once again stop spreading hatred. The only real NAZI is Lyndon Larouche, and you are a known supporter.

(9) Past behaviour, Oklahoma, wtc93, Kennedy, Iraq war, Haiti war, Afgan war.

With regards to Oklahoma, I'm sure that you were 110% supportive of white supremacist Timothy McVeigh.

(10) Clear & deliberate destructiuon of US economy underway.

What's the point of doing that?

The are direct philosophical ties to the NAZI's as well as blood/financial (Bushes)

How so, the ADL has often said their is no evidence to show any of the Bush's were nazi sympathizers. Once again attempt to back up your statements before spewing your tripe.

There are unsubstantiated rumors concerning Prescott Bush's associations with the Nazi party. The Anti-Defamation League has stated, "Rumors about the alleged Nazi 'ties' of the late Prescott Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush, have circulated widely through the Internet in recent years. These charges are untenable and politically motivated." [2] The rumors began with extreme right-wing attacks on George H.W. Bush during his 1980 presidential run and were renewed during his 1988 run.

BTW: The person who has constantly made the claim that Bush is a Nazi is Lyndon Larouche, how does Larouche feel about minorities.

The parallel between LaRouche's thinking and that of the classical fascist model is striking. LaRouche, like Mussolini and Hitler before him, borrowed from Marx yet changed his theories fundamentally. Most important, Marx's internationalist outlook was abandoned in favor of a narrow nation-state perspective. Marx's goal of abolishing capitalism was replaced by the model of a totalitarian state that directs an economy where ownership of the means of production is still largely in public hands. The corporations and their owners remain in place but have to take their orders from LaRouche. Hitler called the schema "national socialism". LaRouche hopes the term "the American System" will be more acceptable.

(2) Cheneys stad down orders

Once again unsubstantiated, and the link didn't show that stand down orders were given.

(4) Incomplete & delayed investigation (guilty behaviour)

To pacify the people stupid enough to believe the government did it by flying a plane into a field, and taking another plane, making it dissapear, and then firing a missile at the pentagon for some stupid reason.

[Canadian Blue]

Here's the funny thing though, Polynewbie is accusing us of being sycophants, nazis, fascists, retards, etc. But look at his post's and compare them to a certain philosophy.

They have to let some things out to keep some semblance of credibility in the media to make some people think the media is honest. The important stuff never really comes out. An example of this is the Kennedy Assasination - the media reported it but gave no mention of the possible primary motive which was Kennedys orders to print off 4 billion dollars worth of debt free currency. The bankers did not like that which was why he was killed and the banker controlled media that reports conspiracy theories isn't going to tell you about that motive. That is much bigger than any war with Cuba.

Do you think getting to vote means democracy when both parties in the USA and all four out of five main parties in Canada are controlled by private central bankers that print our money for nothing, lend it at face value and use profits to control our society in every way from media to publishing to education and medacine through focus groups, tax free foundations and think tanks ?

The central bankers want a world government and for that to happen the USA and its constitution and manufactering capability must be destroyed.

Its in the interview with the law professor I posted. As far as my theories around 911, lots of people share the same ideas and know that the central bankers actually run the country. Its not a new or original idea shared only by myself and Lyndon LaRouche.

These two things are strongly against the Bush doctrine which is too destroy the manufactering capability of the USA and to let private bankers take over. So Bush and his gang do everything they can to discredit LaRouche. LaRouche is not in the pockets of the international bankers.

You need to learn about banking. Only then can you understand how the USA works. Everything depends on money and runs on money. Rockefeller owns the USA. They vote and choose between the Rockefeller Democrats and the Rockefeller Republicans. Your idea of democracy is an illusion and if you and people like you do not wake up, one morning to will awaken to NAZI Germany hell on earth and you will and should blame yourself for it. Read books like Money by John Kenneth Galbraith to confirm what is in this video: http://www.themoneymasters.com/ read quotes from this site of presidents and head bankers. You can see that video on Google.

It would be good if they chose A Man's a Man for a' That, song by Robert Burns extolling the common man.

Our society has lost all respect for common people. They are daily victims of the graft and corruption used by politicians, central bankers and the courts to further their own twisted views of superiority.

They want to remove protections from farmers - its part of their overall effort to destroy the country from the inside to convert to fascism and sell the country and its public asstets to the corporations and bankers.

They want corporate farms and slave labour.

Many people say there is a great big conspiracy for world government that has been going on for a very long time. Many people have said something to this affect like Kennedy and Larry MacDonald. The current Ron Paul certainly believes there is a grand conspiracy for world takeover by the banks. The banks have even spoken of such a conspiracy and basically admitted it. We have been warned about it be other bankers in the 30's.

Allright so their is a huge conspiracy involving an international banking cabal. But hold on, has any government in the past tried to deal with this cabal and offer a FINAL SOLUTION to these people who are trying to take over the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Economic_practice

Internationally, the Nazi Party believed that an international banking cabal was behind the global depression of the 1930s. Control of this cabal, which had grown to a position where it controlled both Europe and the United States, was identified with an elite and powerful group of Jews. However, a number of people believed that this was part of an ongoing plot by the Jewish people, as a whole, to achieve global domination. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which began its circulation in Russia at the beginning of the 20th century, were said to have confirmed this, already showing "evidence" that the Bolshevik takeover in Russia was in accordance with one of the protocols. Broadly speaking, the existence of large international banking or merchant banking organizations was well known at this time. Many of these banking organizations were able to exert influence upon nation states by extension or withholding of credit. This influence is not limited to the small states that preceded the creation of the German Empire as a nation state in the 1870s, but is noted in most major histories of all European powers from the 16th century onward. Nevertheless, after the Great Depression, this libelous and unverified manuscript took on an important role in Nazi Germany, thus providing another link in the Nazis ideological motivation for the destruction of that group in the Holocaust.

Polynewbie, the only person here who can be accused of holding NAZI view's is yourself, as I have just shown you.

As well what would your final solution be to these bankers, Lucifarian's, and any other enemies of the people you have identified?

[Canadian Blue]

Once again people remember that Polynewbie is targeting a group of people who we don't even know. He has made comments about Lucifarian's. Bankers, etc. All of these people have no name, and he considers them evil.

Whenever something tragic happen's people will always feel inclined to find a scapegoat to blame. Let's look at some event's in history for a second.

As the Black Death epidemics devastated Europe in the mid-14th century, annihilating more than a half of the population, Jews were taken as scapegoats. Rumors spread that they caused the disease by deliberately poisoning wells. Hundreds of Jewish communities were destroyed by violence, in particular in the Iberian peninsula and in the Germanic Empire. In Provence, 40 Jews were burnt in Toulon as soon as April 1348.[22] "Never mind that Jews were not immune from the ravages of the plague ; they were tortured until they "confessed" to crimes that they could not possibly have committed. In one such case, a man named Agimet was ... coerced to say that Rabbi Peyret of Chambery (near Geneva) had ordered him to poison the wells in Venice, Toulouse, and elsewhere. In the aftermath of Agimet’s "confession," the Jews of Strasbourg were burned alive on February 14, 1349.[23]

Although the Pope Clement VI tried to protect them by the July 6, 1348 papal bull and another 1348 bull, several months later, 900 Jews were burnt in Strasbourg, where the plague hadn't yet affected the city.[22] Clement VI condemned the violence and said those who blamed the plague on the Jews (among whom were the flagellants) had been "seduced by that liar, the Devil."

September 11th

Some conspiracy theories hold that Israel or organized Jewry played a key role in carrying out the September 11 attacks.[185] According to the Anti-Defamation League, "anti-Semitic conspiracy theories have not been accepted in mainstream circles in the U.S.," but "this is not the case in the Arab and Muslim world."[186] The Anti-Defamation League has published a paper, Unraveling Anti-Semitic 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, identifying the claims made and responding to them. Several websites of the 9/11 truth movement have also worked to debunk such claims and expose websites and individuals engaging in Anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial.[187][188][189]

A claim that 4,000 Jewish employees skipped work at the WTC on September 11 has been widely reported and widely debunked. The number of Jews who died in the attacks--typically estimated at around 400[190][191][192]--tracks closely with the percentage of Jews living in the New York area. Five Israelis died in the attack.[193]

Ariel Sharon, in 2001 Prime Minister of Israel, cancelled a planned trip to New York around the time of the attacks. Some have interpreted this as evidence he was warned to stay away. In fact the rally at which he was going to speak had been scheduled for September 23, 2001, and had been cancelled a month before September 11.[194]

On September 17, 2001,[195] the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz' reported that four hours after the attack the FBI arrested five Israelis who had been filming the smoking skyline from the roof of their company's building for "puzzling behavior". The Israelis were said to have been videotaping the disaster with cries of joy and mockery.[196] On June 21, 2002, ABC reported that the FBI has not reached a consensus on whether they were Israeli intelligence operatives but concluded they had no advance knowledge of the September 11 attacks.[197] The five were released and deported to Israel on November 20-21, 2001.[198]

According to The Daily Telegraph (September 16, 2001), Israel had sent two Mossad agents to Washington in August to warn both the FBI and CIA of an imminent large-scale attack involving a cell of up to 200 terrorists. The Telegraph quoted an unnamed senior Israeli security official as saying "They had no specific information about what was being planned but linked the plot to Osama bin Laden and told the Americans that there were strong grounds for suspecting Iraqi involvement."[199]

Once again the truthies trying to get any chance to find a new conspiracy theory to fit their claim's.

An article in the September 11 2006 edition of the United States newsweekly Time Magazine titled “Why The 9/11 Conspiracies Won't Go Away” states that the major 9/11 conspiracy theories “depend on circumstantial evidence, facts without analysis or documentation, quotes taken out of context and the scattered testimony of traumatized eyewitnesses” and the continued popularity of these theories are due to “the idea that there is a malevolent controlling force orchestrating global events is, in a perverse way, comforting”. It concludes that “conspiracy theories are part of the process by which Americans deal with traumatic public events like Sept. 11. Conspiracy theories form around them like scar tissue. In a curious way, they're an American form of national mourning.”[205]

The Daily Telegraph published an article called "The CIA couldn't have organised this..." which said "The same people who are making a mess of Iraq were never so clever or devious that they could stage a complex assault on two narrow towers of steel and glass" and "if there is a nefarious plot in all this bad planning, it is one improvised by a confederacy of dunces". This article mainly attacked Scholars for 9/11 Truth, a group of scientists which was, at the time, led by Professor Steven E. Jones. They said "most of them aren't scientists but instructors... at second-rate colleges".

Scientific American,[211] Popular Mechanics,[212] and The Skeptic's Dictionary[213] have published articles that challenge and discredit various 9/11 conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theorists have jumped on the contribution to the Popular Mechanics article by "senior researcher" Ben Chertoff, who they claim is cousin of Michael Chertoff - current head of Homeland Security.[214] However, no indication of an actual connection has been revealed and Ben Chertoff has denied the allegation.

A few fringe conspiracy theorists also consider American Airlines Flight 77 pilot Charles Burlingame as a "prime suspect" in the conspiracy.[77][78] In response to these accusations and the Loose Change video, his sister, Debra, remarked "The only thing they (the filmmakers) seem to have gotten right about the Sept. 11 attacks is the date when they occurred...They aren't truth-tellers looking to save the world. They're con artists hoping to sucker conspiracy-theory paranoids or anti-government malcontents into shelling out their hard-earned dollars."

The Pentagon "no Boeing" theory constitutes a controversial issue, even among conspiracy theorists, many of whom have pointed out that this claim is disproven by hundreds of eyewitnesses and physical evidence, suggesting it is disinformation to create a easily discredited straw man argument.[80][81][82] Several researchers have argued that the wings would cause less damage than the plane's main body, that photographs of large amounts of wreckage and debris matching a 757 have become available, that the appearance of the size of the hole is typically misrepresented; and that the actual fuselage diameter of 12 feet is a much more relevant dimension for the deepest parts of the hole than the overall 44-foot height of the 757's tail.[83][84] They also emphasize reports from numerous eyewitnesses, including commuters on nearby roads,[85] nearby apartment buildings,[86] and other surrounding locations. Many witnesses saw the aircraft close up as it approached the Pentagon and described it as an American Airlines Boeing 757.[87][88][89]

Purdue University also released a study with results that recreated the attack. In explaining the damage, the study argued that the plane was like a "sausage skin" because of the speed of impact.[90]

Leslie Robertson appealed to the difficulty of planting the necessary explosives in his radio debate with Steven Jones.[89]

NIST also rejected Jones's hypothesis using a logistical argument: "a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition."

Preparing the building and placing charges for demolition would have required performing extensive work without attracting the attention of the large number of people who worked in the building.[103]

Opponents to the controlled-demolition theory emphasize testimony provided by firefighters and EMT personnel about the severity of the damage to WTC 7. Firefighters used transits to determine whether there was any movement in the structure and were surprised to discover that it was, in fact, moving.[104] A collapse zone was set up at that time, and WTC 7 collapsed about an hour and a half later at 5:20 p.m..

New York Fire Department personnel on the scene described the damage inflicted to the south face of WTC 7. Several firefighters and other first responders emphasized the critical condition of Building Seven.[105]

Controlled-demolition experts at ImplosionWorld.com state that they have never heard the term ("pull it," see section Alleged confession above) used to describe demolition of a building by explosives.

I just solved the mystery...

Because he is an electrical engineering professor, for example, Arthur Butz at Northwestern has not been punished for his vocal Holocaust denial. The same would probably not be true of a professor of modern European history. But BYU's explanation for Jones's review cites his accusations about government involvement—which are outside his area of expertise—not the quality of his research into the collapse's physics, the discipline in which errors would suggest a lack of fitness to carry on his job.

Say Polynewbie ever teach at Northwestern?