Was Katrina A GOP-Created Stom?

[jdobbin]

Government was there....just not very effective, from flood stage predictions to flood plain management over many years. Neighbors filled sandbags in the Red River Valley. National Guard came to watch.

Isn't the National Guard the responsibility of the the Governor?

The National Weather Service should have done better but I seem to recall a massive federal effort in North Dakota and Minnesota.

[bush_cheney2004]

Isn't the National Guard the responsibility of the the Governor?

The National Weather Service should have done better but I seem to recall a massive federal effort in North Dakota and Minnesota.

Bingo! Blanco!

State and federal aid trickled in incrementally, but the economic disaster included farming. Neighbors and locals were more important than Uncle Sam or National Guard. FEMA, low interest loans, yada, yada, yada....California got more for obvious political reasons. Louisiana has to compete with the same interests and pork barrel politics.

1997 was worse than the big 1993 floods for our area, and aggressive flood plain buyouts started to happen. But New Orleans wants us to pay to rebuild stupidity?

[jbg]

1997 was worse than the big 1993 floods for our area, and aggressive flood plain buyouts started to happen. But New Orleans wants us to pay to rebuild stupidity?

Can someone explain how it could be coincidence that a largely black city, New Orleans, was struck by Katrina? Katrina must have been planned and the flooding was certainly planned.

[PolyNewbie]

BC:But New Orleans wants us to pay to rebuild stupidity?

The banks want you too and therefore you will.

[jdobbin]

Bingo! Blanco!

State and federal aid trickled in incrementally, but the economic disaster included farming. Neighbors and locals were more important than Uncle Sam or National Guard. FEMA, low interest loans, yada, yada, yada....California got more for obvious political reasons. Louisiana has to compete with the same interests and pork barrel politics.

1997 was worse than the big 1993 floods for our area, and aggressive flood plain buyouts started to happen. But New Orleans wants us to pay to rebuild stupidity?

Sorry, you lost me.

A quick visit to Grand Forks will show a re-building and this year...10 years after the disaster the engineers have finally completed a diversion to save the city from flooding that has hit them in 1950 and 1975, etc, etc.

I'm sure there are people pissed that things were not even faster but I remember there being federal aid there and it wasn't days and days after the disaster.

[bush_cheney2004]

Sorry, you lost me.

A quick visit to Grand Forks will show a re-building and this year...10 years after the disaster the engineers have finally completed a diversion to save the city from flooding that has hit them in 1950 and 1975, etc, etc.

I'm sure there are people pissed that things were not even faster but I remember there being federal aid there and it wasn't days and days after the disaster.

The point is that local and state responses in the MidWest to the '93 and '97 flood events were far more competent than with Katrina, if only because it was physically possible. Still, woeful local incompetence (e.g. preparedness) abounded in New Orleans, regardless of the presumed role of the federal government after the fact. Politicising the early aid response, or lack thereof, has become far more important.

"Pissed" in Iowa, South Dakota, North Dakota, Minnesota or even Manitoba? Maybe, but we also watched aid delivery to California after wild fires, earthquakes, and flooding with equally mixed success. New Orleans seems to have a much higher political whine quotient and less patience than Grand Forks.

[jdobbin]

The point is that local and state responses in the MidWest to the '93 and '97 flood events were far more competent than with Katrina, if only because it was physically possible. Still, woeful local incompetence (e.g. preparedness) abounded in New Orleans, regardless of the presumed role of the federal government after the fact. Politicising the early aid response, or lack thereof, has become far more important.

"Pissed" in Iowa, South Dakota, North Dakota, Minnesota or even Manitoba? Maybe, but we also watched aid delivery to California after wild fires, earthquakes, and flooding with equally mixed success. New Orleans seems to have a much higher political whine quotient and less patience than Grand Forks.

I don't know what you mean physically possible. Canadian rescue teams were able to get on the ground to help in Katrina rescue before local, state and federal people could get there. How is it that Canada can get people on U.S. soil faster to help than American? You can imagine the surprise of the U.S. Coast Guard to see a Canadian flag flying down there and know that Canadians had rendered aid for two or more days before they or anyone else arrived. By the way, it was locals down there that hoisted the flag, not us.

As far as the flood goes in 1997, the Canadian military was on the ground before the waters had crossed the border in preparation. The provincial government along with the city of Winnipeg went into emergency readiness and built the Brunkild dike day and night to save the city. Flares went up every few minutes to reveal hundreds of pieces of equipment preparing earthen dikes.

In truth, Manitoba prepared for this from the 1950s on and lost only one town in the whole event.

Sadly, North Dakota and Minnesota along with the feds down south weren't as prepared despite decades of warning.

Still, despite your grumpiness over the whole thing, federal assistance was on the ground the day that the water came. It might not have been there fast enough but it did prevent everyone (save for one person) from losing their lives. And ten years later, Grand Forks, destroyed in the flood, is better prepared and looks great.

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't know what you mean physically possible. Canadian rescue teams were able to get on the ground to help in Katrina rescue before local, state and federal people could get there. How is it that Canada can get people on U.S. soil faster to help than American? You can imagine the surprise of the U.S. Coast Guard to see a Canadian flag flying down there and know that Canadians had rendered aid for two or more days before they or anyone else arrived. By the way, it was locals down there that hoisted the flag, not us.

Do you really believe that only Canadians were delivering aid for days before the USCG or anyone else arrived? Landfall in Louisiana was August 29. As an aside, that's in stark contrast to getting DART deployed after the tsunami disaster, eh?

Here is a summary of Canadian relief efforts from the US Ambassador's Office from a thank you letter:

Canada's extensive support for Katrina relief includes (but is not limited to) the following:

- Canada flew 27 Canadian Red Cross and 5 other disaster relief personnel to Houston on September 3, to help with Katrina relief. Canada has also provided air transport services to FEMA, to help move supplies and personnel.

- The Public Health Agency of Canada airlifted supplies of antibiotics and other medicines, beds, blankets, and other supplies from its emergency stocks.

- Over 1,000 Canadian military personnel were deployed to the US on September 6, including a 40-member diving team that has been helping the US Navy restore water navigation and inspect levees.

-A 4-ship task group carrying emergency supplies, small boats, helicopters, communication experts, divers, and Army engineers was sent to the affected area on September 7.

-The Canadian Air Force provided two CH-146 Griffin helicopters to cover the US Coast Guard's Boston area search and rescue needs, to free USCG helicopters for Katrina operations.

-The Embassy of Canada in Washington, DC held an all-day fundraiser on September 7 that collected over $20,000 for Red Cross Katrina relief work.

[jbg]

Canadians did wonderful things, but remember, they didn't have to coordinate the whole relief effort. The combination of relative inaccessability (under sea level and I-10 being the only real access from higher ground) and state and local incompetence and fraud created unique challenges to people whose responsibility was comprehensive and not voluntary.

[jdobbin]

Do you really believe that only Canadians were delivering aid for days before the USCG or anyone else arrived? Landfall in Louisiana was August 29. As an aside, that's in stark contrast to getting DART deployed after the tsunami disaster, eh?

We've gone over this material that was well linked and dated in these forums. RCMP arrived on the ground from B.C. in August days before any U.S. help arrived.

Granted, it was was in one place and one time but it was common in the many days after the hurricane for areas not to have seen a soul.

As for the DART incident, it is quite obvious that the disaster was not even on the radar of a vacationing Liberal government. It is one of the things that made Canadians lose faith in the government's ability to help others in a disaster. Trying to get a Canadian minister to answer his phone while in his home in France left a sour taste in people's mouths.

[jdobbin]

Canadians did wonderful things, but remember, they didn't have to coordinate the whole relief effort. The combination of relative inaccessability (under sea level and I-10 being the only real access from higher ground) and state and local incompetence and fraud created unique challenges to people whose responsibility was comprehensive and not voluntary.

One wonders how things might have gone if Canada actually did coordinate the effort. Given the poor effort of all three levels of government in the U.S., an outside government probably would have been a boon to getting things done.

[bush_cheney2004]

We've gone over this material that was well linked and dated in these forums. RCMP arrived on the ground from B.C. in August days before any U.S. help arrived.

Granted, it was was in one place and one time but it was common in the many days after the hurricane for areas not to have seen a soul.

As for the DART incident, it is quite obvious that the disaster was not even on the radar of a vacationing Liberal government. It is one of the things that made Canadians lose faith in the government's ability to help others in a disaster. Trying to get a Canadian minister to answer his phone while in his home in France left a sour taste in people's mouths.

In other words, it was really no better than anyone else, save for those who need political ammo. The Canadians working in St. Benard Parish did so in conjunction with local first responders.

[bush_cheney2004]

One wonders how things might have gone if Canada actually did coordinate the effort. Given the poor effort of all three levels of government in the U.S., an outside government probably would have been a boon to getting things done.

Sure....look how well Canada helped to coordinate efforts in Rwanda...or potable water for First Nations!

[jbg]

One wonders how things might have gone if Canada actually did coordinate the effort. Given the poor effort of all three levels of government in the U.S., an outside government probably would have been a boon to getting things done.

Can't argue with you there. But even I could have done a better job than Nagin/Bianco.

[jdobbin]

Can't argue with you there. But even I could have done a better job than Nagin/Bianco.

Too bad that Republican efforts re-elected Nagin and helped first elect Blanco.

[jdobbin]

Sure....look how well Canada helped to coordinate efforts in Rwanda...or potable water for First Nations!

I believe Canadian efforts were shut down by Britain and the U.S. in the Security Council.

As far as First Nations goes, there really is no excuse for their condition. It is unfortunate the Conservatives didn't ratify Kelowna.

[bush_cheney2004]

I believe Canadian efforts were shut down by Britain and the U.S. in the Security Council.

As far as First Nations goes, there really is no excuse for their condition. It is unfortunate the Conservatives didn't ratify Kelowna.

And I believe that is a cop out. If Gen Dallaire wanted/needed 50 APCs and airlift to Rwanda, Canada couldn't provide either because of domestic budget choices. The First Nations' potable water fiasco cannot be laid at the feet of Conservatives considering how long it has been going on. Nice try....

[jdobbin]

And I believe that is a cop out. If Gen Dallaire wanted/needed 50 APCs and airlift to Rwanda, Canada couldn't provide either because of domestic budget choices. The First Nations' potable water fiasco cannot be laid at the feet of Conservatives considering how long it has been going on. Nice try....

That was not my meaning. My meaning was that Britain and the U.S. left Canada's ass hanging in the wind. First, they offered no help. Second, they wouldn't authorize any involvement in stopping the killing. Canada could have acted unilaterally but to what end if it was not supported by the international community?

As for potable water. Nice try to say that it was only in the last 13 years that it became a problem. It has been a problem for decades of Tory and Liberal rule. The Kelowna agreement between the Feds and 10 provinces was a good start to try and deal with systemic problems.

What are the Conservatives doing about it now? What is their initiative?

At any rate, this thread has drifted way past Katrina. You want a discussion of Rwanda or First Nations, there are a few threads out there.

[jbg]

At any rate, this thread has drifted way past Katrina. You want a discussion of Rwanda or First Nations, there are a few threads out there.

To be precise this thread's purpose was to make people prove that Katrina wasn't an inside job, a planned destruction.

[bush_cheney2004]

That was not my meaning. My meaning was that Britain and the U.S. left Canada's ass hanging in the wind. First, they offered no help. Second, they wouldn't authorize any involvement in stopping the killing. Canada could have acted unilaterally but to what end if it was not supported by the international community?

Coulda, woulda, shoulda....Canada left its own ass hanging in the wind....lead, follow, or get out of the way. Same as Katrina "victims", where you claim Canada did act "unilaterally", besting the efforts of US federal, state, and local government. Right.......

Sometimes Canada's mouth writes checks it can't cash, just like the USA.

[bush_cheney2004]

To be precise this thread's purpose was to make people prove that Katrina wasn't an inside job, a planned destruction.

OK...I think it was a Canadian plot by Martin and the Libranos to get domestic attention off of Adscam. The destruction was set up long ago when racist Canada expelled Acadians, many of whom became residents of Louisiana territory. Ward 9 victims were the cover story / diversion.

[jdobbin]

Coulda, woulda, shoulda....Canada left its own ass hanging in the wind....lead, follow, or get out of the way. Same as Katrina "victims", where you claim Canada did act "unilaterally", besting the efforts of US federal, state, and local government. Right.......

Sometimes Canada's mouth writes checks it can't cash, just like the USA.

Canada did not act unilaterally on Katrina. We were invited to help. And I didn't say bested U.S. aid, I said Canadian rescuers were surprised not to see local, state or federal coordination where they were.

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada did not act unilaterally on Katrina. We were invited to help. And I didn't say bested U.S. aid, I said Canadian rescuers were surprised not to see local, state or federal coordination where they were.

They were busy arguing about jurisdiction and red tape elsewhere. I believe that the Canadian responders were there to help without political ramifications insisted by those who never step foot in the region to this day.

[jbg]

The destruction was set up long ago when racist Canada expelled Acadians, many of whom became residents of Louisiana territory. Ward 9 victims were the cover story / diversion.

Hurricane Rita was aimed at the Acadians actually, was just as deliberate, and less publicized. It was steered away from Houston if you remember.

[jbg]

They were busy arguing about jurisdiction and red tape elsewhere. I believe that the Canadian responders were there to help without political ramifications insisted by those who never step foot in the region to this day.

I tried to send you a PM and couldn't. E-mail me at my posted address if you get a chance.