The Left & Morality

[Black Dog]

Drea: your history is wromng. The Soviet initially supported the socialist government of the time, but intervened to overthrow its leadership and preserve the regime as a whole. The insurgency was a truibal/rural response to political repression but also to the efforts of the socialists to institute social reforms, including education and women's rights.

Then Russia pulled out and the Taliban took over. Taking away women's rights, slaughtering people, etc

"Taking away" implies that Afghan women had rights to begin with. Outside some of the more cosmopolitin urban areas, the situation for women wasn't much better pre-Taliban and it ain't much better today.

Now *we are there fighting against the Taliban, but on the side of the gov't, unlike the Russians who simply wanted to take over the country.

I doubt the distinction matters much. I'm sure most Afghans don't really give a rat's ass about who's in charge, provided whoever it is allows them to live their lives as they have for the past 500 years. The more we try to change that, the more pushback we'll get.

[marcinmoka]

No. But morality is seldom at the top of the list of factors in play.

Right. Self preservation is. Thus why I wrote:

Certainly an amount we can afford. Do you ever donate to charity? Not to mention, if it prevents the rise of another Talliban, and lowers the risk of terrorism, we can even call it an "insurance" of sorts

But clearly have done little to blunt their ability to come back when we decide we've had enough.

How do you know so much about the shape of the Talliban? What do their finances look like? What are their resources? What shape is their leadership in?

Ho wlong do you want to be there?

Change dosen’t come over night. We will leave once the Afghani security forces are capable of defending their own homeland.

In Canada, we may never fully eliminate organized crime groups. But devoting a few more policing resources in hopes of stemming their activity is better then letting them function without impunity.

In modern times, no foreign army has ever defeted a local insurgency.

This is true….when the insurgency has the support of the majority.

But the Talliban lacks required the popular support? The key problem here is that the Talliban, although they have minimal support, have the majority of guns. And in a power of vacuum, guns talk.

No. but supporting and believing that it's within our power to change things are two different animals

Good job. But what about the will of the majority of Afghani people? Past attempts to shape Afghanistan failed, but because the people resisted the change. This time, the people are embracing the change. They want it more then we do.

[Black Dog]

Right. Self preservation is. Thus why I wrote:

See I was mostly confused by when you wrote:

The Left & Morality, Kissing up to fascism...

How do you know so much about the shape of the Talliban? What do their finances look like? What are their resources? What shape is their leadership in?

Well, I'm just going by what you're telling me here. According to you, they're just tickity-boo.

Change dosen’t come over night. We will leave once the Afghani security forces are capable of defending their own homeland.

I think history has shown that the Afghan people are quite capable of defending their homeland if they so choose.

In Canada, we may never fully eliminate organized crime groups. But devoting a few more policing resources in hopes of stemming their activity is better then letting them function without impunity.

Weak analogy.

This is true….when the insurgency has the support of the majority. But the Talliban lacks required the popular support? The key problem here is that the Talliban, although they have minimal support, have the majority of guns. And in a power of vacuum, guns talk.

I'm not sure what level of popular support the Taliban have. I'm sure many of the people helping us against the Taliban were front and centre cheering them on when they took power. I'd wager more than a few even counted themselves as Taliban members in good standing. I don't trust public opinion polls and I don't know if there's a way to actively guage it. It might be small, but I don't think it's non-existent. The fact that they are proving to be so durable would indicate they are getting some help from the populace.

Good job. But what about the will of the majority of Afghani people? Past attempts to shape Afghanistan failed, but because the people resisted the change. This time, the people are embracing the change. They want it more then we do.

I for one would love to know how this dramatic shift came about and why, if the people want it soooo bad, it's provinmg so blasted hard to get them to actually swallow the democracy pill.

I don't buy it. If this job was about driving out a tiny group of foreign invaders to the cheers of the apparently helpless Afghan population (who are so over the whole rural/tribal thing already) it'd be cake.

[marcinmoka]

I for one would love to know how this dramatic shift came about and why, if the people want it soooo bad, it's provinmg so blasted hard to get them to actually swallow the democracy pill.

I don't buy it. If this job was about driving out a tiny group of foreign invaders to the cheers of the apparently helpless Afghan population (who are so over the whole rural/tribal thing already) it'd be cake.

Right. That's how democracy works. One day we decide "hey, let's try something else for a change", and the big, mean men with the guns in the corner wanting to make us their subservients will just bow down.

Well, I'm just going by what you're telling me here. According to you, they're just tickity-boo.

No. You claim:

The problem with fighting the Taliban is that the Taliban are Pashtun. The Pashtun are Afghanistan. They have home field advantage. The question is: how much money are you willing tos pend and how many lives are you willing to lay down for an enterprise that has very little probability of meeting it's stated goals?

P.S. Can you clear up "tickity-boo"? I'm ESL, you must forgive me.

P.S.S.

Weak analogy.

Why?