Eastern prosperity

[geoffrey]

Alberta is only a recent recruit to the club. They are welcome, but not if all they can do is bitch about it. Very unCanadian that is.

Recent as in last 60 or 70 years yup. Even through the darkest days of Trudeau's attack on our wealth, we still pay in more than we took out.

[sideshow]

Maybe what is needed is to get rid of all these artificial provincial boundaries and just have one country. One set of rules, one government, one set of taxes, etc.

I can hear the crying and whining already......

[[email protected]]

Even assuming it is pop distribution, why should Ontario receive incentives at all?

1. Because Ontario taxpayers pay for them.

2. Because Ontario is home to the largest number of self-employed entrepreneurs that such programs are designed to give incentives to.

The lack of such incentives going to the Atlantic provinces has NOTHING to do with politics and EVERYTHING to do with the complete lack of self-employed Atlantic region entrepeneurs applying for such funds.

P.S. I'm still waiting for a data source for your assertions above.

Sources:

The Provincial distribution of Total R&D expenditures in natural sciences, engineering, social sciences, and humanities - Statistics Canada, table 358-0001

The provincial distribution of business subsidies - Atlantic Provinces Economic Council, report titled 'Subsidized to the Hill' September 2004

[[email protected]]

Should business subsidies be used to help under developed regions or go to those regions which are already prosperous?

[Mad_Michael]

Sources:

The Provincial distribution of Total R&D expenditures in natural sciences, engineering, social sciences, and humanities - Statistics Canada, table 358-0001

The provincial distribution of business subsidies - Atlantic Provinces Economic Council, report titled 'Subsidized to the Hill' September 2004

Interesting how the original statement claimed ALL subsidies/expenditures in natural sciences, engineering, social sciences and humanities.

Now we see it is only the "R&D" portion of those subjects that you previously claimed as "all". A carefully cherry-picked statistic is mis-represented as the whole of the pie in order to convey a false impression of the issue for politically partisan purposes. No surprise there.

[[email protected]]

Sources:

The Provincial distribution of Total R&D expenditures in natural sciences, engineering, social sciences, and humanities - Statistics Canada, table 358-0001

The provincial distribution of business subsidies - Atlantic Provinces Economic Council, report titled 'Subsidized to the Hill' September 2004

Interesting how the original statement claimed ALL subsidies/expenditures in natural sciences, engineering, social sciences and humanities.

Now we see it is only the "R&D" portion of those subjects that you previously claimed as "all". A carefully cherry-picked statistic is mis-represented as the whole of the pie in order to convey a false impression of the issue for politically partisan purposes. No surprise there.

My mistake, but R&D or not it doesn't alter the fact that Atlantic Canada is an afterthought in the national scheme of things.

[Wilber]

They should change the name of this country to the Confederation of Whining Regions.

[Mad_Michael]

My mistake, but R&D or not it doesn't alter the fact that Atlantic Canada is an afterthought in the national scheme of things.

Refreshing to see such an acknowledgement.

That being said, after Quebec, the Atlantic provinces suck up more subsidies from Ottawa than anywhere else (per capita basis). Quebec is the number one federal tax subsidy sucker in the country. Newfoundland is number two. NS and NB fight it out for the number three spot.

Taxpayers in Ontario and Alberta have the honour and privilege of paying for these tax subsidies.

Solution: Ween yourselves off this subsidy addiction. A subsidised economy will never prosper.

[[email protected]]

My mistake, but R&D or not it doesn't alter the fact that Atlantic Canada is an afterthought in the national scheme of things.

Refreshing to see such an acknowledgement.

That being said, after Quebec, the Atlantic provinces suck up more subsidies from Ottawa than anywhere else (per capita basis). Quebec is the number one federal tax subsidy sucker in the country. Newfoundland is number two. NS and NB fight it out for the number three spot.

Taxpayers in Ontario and Alberta have the honour and privilege of paying for these tax subsidies.

Solution: Ween yourselves off this subsidy addiction. A subsidised economy will never prosper.

Agreed. Should the national government create or help to create a prosperous regional economy in Atlantic Canada?

[Charles Anthony]

Agreed. Should the national government create or help to create a prosperous regional economy in Atlantic Canada?

No. I do not believe the rest of Canadians are obligated to do so. Whether it is to their advantage to do so is a different question but it is superceded by the question of obligation.

If Atlantica was force to survive financially as an independent sovereign nation, how would its economy look?

[[email protected]]

No. I do not believe the rest of Canadians are obligated to do so. Whether it is to their advantage to do so is a different question but it is superceded by the question of obligation.

Only one problem, Confederation was entered into by the provinces of Atlantic Canada with promises that it would be prosperous for Atlantic Canada.

Should Atlantic Canada stop contributing to help develop the rest of Canada?

[Mad_Michael]

Agreed. Should the national government create or help to create a prosperous regional economy in Atlantic Canada?

Sure, I'm all for assisting in regional development. Indeed, I should like to see a portion of the money wasted on subsidies used more productively or beneficially. Mailing cheques to non-fishing fishermen seems very silly.

Unfortunately, this is a generally tough issue. Cutting off subsidies is really, really difficult. Just look at that Bathurst Steel company or the Cape Breton coal mines. Those were outrageous wastes of subsidies that did nothing but delay the inevitable. Newfoundland (for example) has more heavy equipment operators and hair dressers than they know what to do with. Why? Because these are job categories for which government subsidies for training are available. Similarly, Newfoundland has the highest concentration of public swimming pools in the country - again, more wasted subsidies on make-work projects are the cause of this.

Do you have any suggestions about how the rest of Canada can assist Altantic Canada to increase their economic efficiency? I certainly don't, though I admit, I've never given the topic much thought. I should certainly like to do so.

[Mad_Michael]

Only one problem, Confederation was entered into by the provinces of Atlantic Canada with promises that it would be prosperous for Atlantic Canada.

Compare Atlantic Canada 2007 to Atlantic Canada mid 19th century. I'm sure you will find that prosperity has generally increased overall (though admittedly, such comparisons are very difficult to make).

The only valid point here might be to assert that the prosperity of Atlantic Canada hasn't increased over this time period as much as the prosperity of other parts of Canada.

[Wilber]

Only one problem, Confederation was entered into by the provinces of Atlantic Canada with promises that it would be prosperous for Atlantic Canada.

Should Atlantic Canada stop contributing to help develop the rest of Canada?

What if the whole country goes in the dumpster, will you still feel you are owed prosperity by the rest of the country? What is your definition of prosperity, someone else paying your way?

[[email protected]]

Agreed. Should the national government create or help to create a prosperous regional economy in Atlantic Canada?

Sure, I'm all for assisting in regional development. Indeed, I should like to see a portion of the money wasted on subsidies used more productively or beneficially. Mailing cheques to non-fishing fishermen seems very silly.

Unfortunately, this is a generally tough issue. Cutting off subsidies is really, really difficult. Just look at that Bathurst Steel company or the Cape Breton coal mines. Those were outrageous wastes of subsidies that did nothing but delay the inevitable. Newfoundland (for example) has more heavy equipment operators and hair dressers than they know what to do with. Why? Because these are job categories for which government subsidies for training are available. Similarly, Newfoundland has the highest concentration of public swimming pools in the country - again, more wasted subsidies on make-work projects are the cause of this.

Do you have any suggestions about how the rest of Canada can assist Altantic Canada to increase their economic efficiency? I certainly don't, though I admit, I've never given the topic much thought. I should certainly like to do so.

Here are a few quick ideas,

It would be telling if the central government would undertake steps to show that the National Policy is truly a thing of the past, that is take substantive steps that favour this region OVER the central region. That would go a long way to demonstrate that Atlantic Canada does have a future in Canada. Here are some interesting ideas in that area:

1) Move the National Capital (with all the attendant industries) to Charlottetown, the cradle of Confederation.

2) Move three intended high-tech ‘nodes’ from Ontario/Quebec to NS, NB, and NFLD

3) Have Ottawa take over the provincial debt of the region and make Atlantic Canada a special industrial development zone with zero taxes and allow Atlantic Canada a moratorium on contributions to Canada.

4) Initiate a long term program to encourage industries to relocate from Southern Ontario to the region.

5) Move a number of Crown Corporations (Atomic Canada, National Film Board etc etc) from Ontario-Quebec to the region

[[email protected]]

Only one problem, Confederation was entered into by the provinces of Atlantic Canada with promises that it would be prosperous for Atlantic Canada.

Compare Atlantic Canada 2007 to Atlantic Canada mid 19th century. I'm sure you will find that prosperity has generally increased overall (though admittedly, such comparisons are very difficult to make).

The only valid point here might be to assert that the prosperity of Atlantic Canada hasn't increased over this time period as much as the prosperity of other parts of Canada.

To be fair, we have no idea how prosperous Atlantic Canada would be today had it not joined Canada. It probably is fair to say that it would be better off.

Yes, Atlantic Canada in absolute terms is much better off than it was in 1867, but still it is an impoverished region, with a no-growth or decline future, dependent on the rest of Canada for its standards through handouts. There is something wrong here.

[[email protected]]

Only one problem, Confederation was entered into by the provinces of Atlantic Canada with promises that it would be prosperous for Atlantic Canada.

Should Atlantic Canada stop contributing to help develop the rest of Canada?

What if the whole country goes in the dumpster, will you still feel you are owed prosperity by the rest of the country?

Yes, because it was promised as terms of Confederation.

[Wilber]

Only one problem, Confederation was entered into by the provinces of Atlantic Canada with promises that it would be prosperous for Atlantic Canada.

Should Atlantic Canada stop contributing to help develop the rest of Canada?

What if the whole country goes in the dumpster, will you still feel you are owed prosperity by the rest of the country?

Yes, because it was promised as terms of Confederation.

Figures. That attitude is much of your problem.

[Wilber]

To be fair, we have no idea how prosperous Atlantic Canada would be today had it not joined Canada. It probably is fair to say that it would be better off.

Why is it fair to say that?

[Charles Anthony]

Yes, because it was promised as terms of Confederation.

What exactly were those terms?

Can you provide a specific link or a reference?

[[email protected]]

Only one problem, Confederation was entered into by the provinces of Atlantic Canada with promises that it would be prosperous for Atlantic Canada.

Should Atlantic Canada stop contributing to help develop the rest of Canada?

What if the whole country goes in the dumpster, will you still feel you are owed prosperity by the rest of the country?

Yes, because it was promised as terms of Confederation.

Figures. That attitude is much of your problem.

We both want a prosperous Atlantic Canada. Joining Confederation was (probably) a raw deal, but we have stuck with it and that has benefited the rest of the country. If, as you say, waiting for the national government to reverse the negative impact that national economic policy is having is a 'bad attitude', then maybe the solution is to start seeking prosperity outside of Confederation?

[[email protected]]

To be fair, we have no idea how prosperous Atlantic Canada would be today had it not joined Canada. It probably is fair to say that it would be better off.

Why is it fair to say that?

Atlantic Canada was booming before Confederation, doing better than Central Canada.

[Wilber]

We both want a prosperous Atlantic Canada. Joining Confederation was (probably) a raw deal, but we have stuck with it and that has benefited the rest of the country. If, as you say, waiting for the national government to reverse the negative impact that national economic policy is having is a 'bad attitude', then maybe the solution is to start seeking prosperity outside of Confederation?

That's your problem, you figure the rest of the country owes you. I'll ask you again, how do you figure Atlantic Canada would be better off if it hadn't joined Confederation? Just saying it was probably a raw deal isn't good enough. Anyone can say that.

[Mad_Michael]

To be fair, we have no idea how prosperous Atlantic Canada would be today had it not joined Canada. It probably is fair to say that it would be better off.

Why is it fair to say that?

Atlantic Canada was booming before Confederation, doing better than Central Canada.

And then the Brits banned slavery and Canada adopted principles of free trade. Bad luck for Nova Scotia who's 19th century prosperity was dependent upon slavery and extremely high tarriffs.

[Wilber]

Atlantic Canada was booming before Confederation, doing better than Central Canada.

So, do you think you live in a vacuum, that the rest of the world should stand still? Booms come and go, the trick is being part of the next one. How did the rest of Canada destroy your prosperity? What could you have done outside of Confederation that would have given you more opportunities than being in it?