Mike Harris: Thanks, But No Thanks...

[sir_springer]

Read it for yourself...

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

I'd this, short of something totally unforseen, makes Stephen Harper just about a lock for the leadership!

Exxxcellllllentttt!!!

[dnsfurlan]

What surprises me about Harris' decision to stay out of the leadership bid is not the fact that he made it, but when he made it. I thought he would wait until after ratification, so as to give the new party some added exposure and even credibility. But, alas, Harris bails out just like he did in Ontario.

Conservatives (small-c) love the guy. He had that kind of mane recognition across the country. But there was too much other baggage, including the french thing. His personal life didn't help considering he would have been running for a party with a faction of social conservatives within it, etc. etc.

Now, it does look like Stephen Harper becomes the consensus frontrunner, unless some star candidate comes out of the woodwork somewhere. Can you say "Tony Clement"? Or perhaps some other Ontario Tory? Harris' departure completely paves the way for some of these people. Maybe even Jim Flaherty? (Although I think he's needed in Ontario).

And Jim Prentice, even thought a darkhorse, could start billing himself as the "unity" candidate.

But something tells me that people will start rallying around Harper. Some of that has already happened. And even some small part of me has been saying that the people who have had merger in mind for tha past few months may have even had Harper in mind as their new leader.

He has some image re-making to do. But I think he might be the guy.

I hope this development doesn't make merger ratification more difficult for the PC Party!

[dnsfurlan]

Another image popped into my mind as I was thinking about this recent development:

Does Stephen Harper now take on the challenge of becoming slayer of the Dragon we have come to know as Mr. Paul Martin, Liberal Heir-Apparent to the throne of 24 Sussex?

I, for one, think he might be the guy who's up for that challenge. But, we'll see!

Stephen Harper: Dragon-Slayer? Hmmm.

Stephen Harper: David vs. the Goliath Paul Martin? Hmmm.

[Pellaken]

either the PC party will reject the merger

or

the PC party will vote 90% against harper for leader, but he'll win anyways.

either way, you may get 10 or 20 seats in ontario, but east there your chances are little to none.

[RT_1984]

I disagree with you pell. THe fact that vote splitting will end, the fact that we'll get better quality candidates than before (some people vote for the MP) and the fact that we're united will bring in more support. Many people in the east don't even know Harper but with the spotlight of an election, his intellect will be showcased. And I'm confident he'll impress here. He'll retain solid support in the west gaining seats in Alberta, maintaining BC, gaining is Sask and Manitoba, while getting a at least a couple dozen in Ontario (harper is from Toronto). He speaks French really well and he'll be concentrating on campaigning in the East now that he knows that there's something to be gained by it. I'm for Harper. Anyone else doesn't have his smarts intellectually or the media (he knows how to keep out of trouble as opposed to Day), his federal knowledge is unmatched by Prentice, and certainly by provincial politicians like Clement and Flaherty. I'm for Harper. For me, and many others, the choice is now clear. He's young, billingual, energetic, with little baggage.

[Pellaken]

"Many people in the east don't even know Harper"

all we remember is that soon after getting his job, be insulted us.

Harper is the most qualified person for the job who wants it.

unfortunatly

as the LEADER of the larger party in this merger, he's got too much baggage to pick up votes.

Money? yes. votes? no.

[RT_1984]

You're a lefty anyway Pell. Whatever choice is presented other than a conservative watered back, will not please you. Go back to the NDP. I mentioned the benefits before. Besides, do you really think people across Canada know Jim Flaherty, Tony Clement or Jim Prentice as much as Stephen Harper to vote for him.

[Pellaken]

Prentice is now Harper's main competition, but Harper's the #1 this time, as opposed to being #2 VS harris.

Harper is knowen.

he's liked in the west, and is "ok" in ontario. but he is not liked in Quebec or the east.

Prentice is not knowen in Quebec or the east, and therefore has a better chance to win seats come election time. Also, as a former PC'er, It wouldent look so much like a takeover.

Harper can win 65-70 seats in the west, and 20 seats in the rest of Canada

Prentice can win 60 seats in the west, and 45-50 seats in the rest of Canada

[sir_springer]

Results to date of new online poll at CTV...

http://www.ctv.ca/generic/generated/news/Canada.html

With Mike Harris out of the running, who do you think is the best hope to lead the merged Conservative Party?

Stephen Harper

106 votes (28 %)

Peter MacKay

32 votes (9 %)

Bernard Lord

66 votes (18 %)

Ken Dryden

54 votes (14 %)

Jim Prentice

12 votes (3 %)

Scott Brison

16 votes (4 %)

Tony Clement

17 votes (5 %)

Jim Dinning

7 votes (2 %)

Other

66 votes (18 %)

[westcoast99]

Harper has a lot of merits. Difficult to see him being strong in Québec, and Atlantic Canada though.

I believe it is probably that the Cons win 20-25 seats in Ontario, and quite possibly many more.
The real battleground for this election is Ontario and Québec.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Gugsy

[sir_springer]

Always boggles my mind, eh?

Someone from the west that's clearly capable, but associated with something not eastern in roots, is a problem.

There's always a problem with someone from the west.

Manning, Day, now Harper.

And the lifespan of a western PM is measured in mere months. Campbell, Clark, Turner.

Oh, Prentice is from the west...but he's of the Progressive Conservatives, so that's not nearly as damning, is it?

He could be a good leader. Harper, no...because he's from the Canadian Alliance. Too "western", wouldn't be acceptable in the east.

If a westerner says, "No more PMs from Quebec, give someone else a chance!", he's a racist, extremist bastard, typical of what can be expected out of the colonies.

But if an easterner says, "No PM from the west, we need a 'national' perspective to 'unite' the country!"...

Well, that's an entirely different matter, a perfectly logical observation, and after all, it's absolutely true.

What utter GD bullshit!

Harper is even from the GTA, grew up there, educated there...

But, God forbid, he went and actually lived in Alberta for a while. Stupid jerk, now he's tainted meat. Screw him! The bloody turncoat, anyways!

The guy is intelligent as hell....yep.

The guy is "conservative"...yep.

The guy is a proven leader...yep.

The guy is bi-lingual...yep.

The guy is articulate...yep.

The guy is young...yep.

The guy is principled...yep.

The guy is second to none on policy...yep.

The guy is from Alberta...SQUAWWWKKKK!!! WRONG ANSWER! Kick the sniveler outta here!

Next?

:angry:

[Pellaken]

springer

I'll be blunt

and I've said this to quebecois

this nation is centered in Ontairo

if you dont like it, leave already!

Harper IS the Alliance.

the Alliance cannot win in the east

THEREFORE

Harper cannot win in the east.

it wouldent make a difference if he had 20 billion dollars, spoke 90 languages, was as captivating as JFK, and looked like fabio. He's the leader of the Canadian Alliance, and that's enough to ensure that he will not win in Quebec or Ontario

[Pellaken]

an update to springer's poll, now that more then 5 people have voted

Stephen Harper

275 votes (22 %)

Jim Prentice

248 votes (20 %)

Scott Brison

155 votes (12 %)

Bernard Lord

122 votes (10 %)

Ken Dryden

110 votes (9 %)

Peter MacKay

92 votes (7 %)

Tony Clement

34 votes (3 %)

Jim Dinning

15 votes (1 %)

Other

201 votes (16 %)

[sir_springer]

Re: the poll..

Prentice was running at about 4%...

Until I mentioned this over on another forum.

Within 20 minutes, he had about 100 votes.

One of the regulars there admitted to sending out a few emails...and the fan club kicked in big time.

Pell...

I assume you mean that I should accept that westerners will always be second fiddle in Canada, regardless?

I accepted that a long time ago, partner...I'm just stubborn enough to fight it anyway.

If this proves out yet again when this is all said and done, my fighting days for equality in this country will be over.

And a Republic of Western Canada will become my principle focus.

If being a "Canadian" at best means second-rate status, then central Canada can stick "I'm Canadian" up their collective asses sideways...with a jackhammer.

[RT_1984]

Pell. It's people like you with those kind of opinions are what makes this country come short of what it could be. The only reason why this country has to be centered in Ontario is because of the quasi-federalist structure of Canada which was so centralized by the charter in 1982. But if we just close our eyes, and kick the Liberals out and get a disruptive, hard-core neo-con dedicated to decentralization like Harper then we can change all that. Sure we could elect, diet coke like Prentice or Lord who would carry out "some" conservative measures but he'd only really be keeping the chair warm for when we get kicked out: and the Liberals get back In (that will eventually happen). But if we get someone like Harper (who could be the Reagan/Thatcher) of Canada then he could ensure lasting change and devolve powers to the provinces in a way that couldn't be significantly reversed and would impact for generations to come. I was this country decentralized for good. And when I think decentalization I don't think Prentice: I think Harper, and any literate person who has read his materials knows what his intentions are. However, because of ignorant opinions that fail to see the long-term big picture, the best we're supposed to hope for is Prentice. For god's sake, we might as well vote for Martin, than listen to your BS. Go to the Liberal Party of Canada Forum. you'll fit right in with their nice "vision."

[westcoast99]

Springer,

I wasn't saying Harper couldn't be leader because he's a Westerner. A western leader would be good for Canada right now.

However, voters want a real alternative that's not the Canadian Alliance, and obviously not only the PC's.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Gugsy

[dnsfurlan]

I'm sick and tired of this "takeover" crap :angry: .

Is it Stephen Harper's fault that he is the strongest candidate being talked about? Now there is some pressure being exerted on Lord again. If he comes in an wins, by the same logic, wouldn't it be a "takeover" by the PC Party of Canada?

All I hear is this whining from some Red Tories and the media about how the Alliance is so powerful that it can exert its own will on the PC Party.

Yet, when it comes to elections, it has no chance in hell.

How in the world can the Alliance be so powerful yet so weak at the same time?

Its time people stopped acting like a bunch of babies and started to look at this from a mature political standpoint.

All the candidates have their merits and weaknesses. No party is evil. And if Harper is set to become the leader, its because he's the strongest choice, and ALL conservatives will rally around him, despite what the whiners continue to complain about.

[westcoast99]

dnsfurlan,

There are candidates who are more electable than Harper, I think.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Gugsy

[sir_springer]

I'm sick and tired of this "takeover" crap :angry: .

Is it Stephen Harper's fault that he is the strongest candidate being talked about? Now there is some pressure being exerted on Lord again. If he comes in an wins, by the same logic, wouldn't it be a "takeover" by the PC Party of Canada?

All I hear is this whining from some Red Tories and the media about how the Alliance is so powerful that it can exert its own will on the PC Party.

Yet, when it comes to elections, it has no chance in hell.

How in the world can the Alliance be so powerful yet so weak at the same time?

Its time people stopped acting like a bunch of babies and started to look at this from a mature political standpoint.

All the candidates have their merits and weaknesses. No party is evil. And if Harper is set to become the leader, its because he's the strongest choice, and ALL conservatives will rally around him, despite what the whiners continue to complain about.

What he said!!!

[sir_springer]

Gugsy...

What in hell kind of credentials does Prentice have to be leader of the Official Opposition, and potentially Prime Minister???

He's never been elected.

He has virtually no political experience.

What? He's a nice guy?

Big deal.

The Liberals eat nice guys for breakfast, and crap them out again before lunch.

It's the equivolent of hiring some 18 yearold fresh outta highschool to be CEO of the Royal Bank just because he's an A student and got elected School President once.

I find it striking that, aside from Stock Day...who's said he ain't running anyway...the only valid leader for this party just happens to be from the PC side, pick one, anyone.

Out of the Sun media, we hear this today:

______________________________________________

Harper edging ahead?

Harris pals favour him

By MARIA MCCLINTOCK, OTTAWA BUREAU, SUN MEDIA

OTTAWA -- With former Ontario premier Mike Harris opting out of the leadership race for the new Conservative party, many of his supporters are considering giving the nod to Alliance Leader Stephen Harper, Sun Media has learned. Sources with the Harris camp confirmed yesterday organizers for Harper and Tory Leader Peter MacKay have been burning up phone lines to key Toronto Harris backers, hoping to sway people to their camps.

"I'm leaning toward Stephen Harper," said one Toronto-based Harris backer. "There's a lot of folks that were on the sidelines waiting to hear what Mike was going to do, that would have otherwise supported Stephen."

Still, it's too early to write off MacKay who is a hot ticket in Toronto where an estimated 2,000 people have bought $750-a-plate dinner tickets to hear MacKay speak at a leader's dinner Thursday. And other names bandied about as potential leaders include former Ontario Health Minister Tony Clement, MP Scott Brison and Calgary lawyer Jim Prentice.

______________________________________________

This only makes sense.

These people want the best man for the job.

They thought Harris was that man, but he's out of it.

Obviously, Harper is their only other choice.

Everyone else is, by comparison, a piker.

[RT_1984]

Any meaningful debate is over. Harper is the man for the Job. He has been kicked around and downplayed by the Pells and Gugsy's of this country for too long. Harper is NEW. He's only been leader for a year and a half. Prentice has no more credentials than Tony Clement. Not as many in fact. I'd rather vote for Tony any day. Harper is the choice now. I'm sick of trying to pick the "perfect strategic" candidate. There isn't one, which will stand up to Martin the way you're thinking. We don't want another Paul Martin. We want a conservative. And if Harper goes to Bay Street with the new united brand name and shows his ideas, I think they'll jump with support. HARPER FOR PM.

[dnsfurlan]

Gugsy,

You completely missed the point of my post.

I don't care who anyone supports for leader. What I do care about is all this crying over some kind of "takeover", which is an easy copout for staunch PC supporters.

Again, if Bernard Lord runs and wins, is this some kind of a "takeover" by the PC Party?

If you don't like Stephen Harper, that's completely cool. That's what democracies are about - differences of opinion. But, and I'm not accusing you of this, if you don't like him then don't pull out the "takeover" crap.

No one is taking over anyone. If Harper wins its because he convinced the members and delegates of the new party that he's the best guy, not because he's somehow magically forced his will on some group of hapless victims.

I'm sick and tired of everyone describing this merger as some kind of "takeover"

When the deal was signed, it was an Alliance "takeover". When Harris pulled out, it was some kind of an Alliance takeover. When the sun rose yesterday, it was because of an Alliance takeover.

To the people employing this tactic, give it a rest. Start engaging in some constructive comments about the merger without attributing every world event to the takeover of the Canadian Alliance Party of Canada.

Sir Springer,

I again have to agree with your assessment of Harper. (Yes, Gugsy, that's my opinion. And you're certainly entitled to yours).

And I have noticed a trend within the establishment of rallying around this guy.

Even during the merger discusions I got the sense that PC backroom guys liked who they were dealing with in Harper.

And since the merger, even some prominent media types have said good things about the guy, which is shocking coming from an institution in this country that is usually allergic to anyone who is proud to be a so-called small-c conservative.

Yes, there are those who continue to moan about Harper. But I don't think they see the long-term capabilities of the guy. The fact that he is where he is today should say something about the man's abilities. And I do think a lot of people have taken notice, despite some of the cheap shots being taken at him.

RT_1984,

You said,

Any meaningful debate is over. Harper is the man for the Job.

Of course, I disagree with that sentiment.

Debate should never be discouraged in politics.

Furthermore, the ratification process isn't over yet. Even thought Harper may now be the frontrunner, we should see what the process bears out before prcoclaiming anyone leader.

Having said that, I think Harper is the guy for the job too, especially given the kink of leader they nead for the party right now. They don't need someone to sweep the country. They need someone who can run a smooth maching and whether the storm of the next election. I think Harper is that guy.

Maybe in the election after that we can start talking about Bernard Lord, Mike Harris, or Jean Charest.

But, for now, I think Harper has the skills to manage this party so that it can survive its initial steps. And I certainly think he's smart enought to deflect the rather short-sighted criticisms about himself. Just my opinion.

[Goldie]

so the leadership of this new party is not shaping up the way I believe Canadians would it like not to mention many high profile concervatives. So what! this movement is very big, I will state this again, no party yet , no leader yet and we are within 10-20% of the liberals. The Government is tripping and the 200 seats I thought Paul Martin would get is reduced by 30 to 40 seats. They will be held. The greater gains will come no matter the leader. The numbers indicate people are ready to jump off the tired Liberals. A principled and steadfast stand for our policies sold over the vast lacking deficiet in moral and the influence pedling and conservative display of a strong team, forget the leader, show the team.

Paul Martin did well as finance minister to most Canadians every other minister except Manley has failed at his or her portfolio. It take a strong team to govern and the conservatives have to show they have rising stars to replace these bumblers. Cabinet trading cards with stats showing their goofs and boondogles vs a pofile of the conservative shadow cabinet and their strenghts. The strong team approach vs look at the leader will benefit the conservatives. I love harper for PM but Canadians are ready to hear that this team is better than the team that just keeps winning by default.

Florida was quite well recieved by almost everyone. why? people just wanted to see somebody else win.

[Rob1963]

dnsfurlan

Of course this is a takeover of the PC Party, how can you see it any other way? The founding principles mean nothing until the membership votes on more specific policy. While, in section 13 of the Agreement in Principle states “ the first convention will be based on equality of ridings, with each recognized riding association eligible to send an equal number of delegates”, future conventions may not be; it is left open. The last paragraph of section 13 reads “The constitution, statement of principles and policies may be amended at the first convention by a double majority vote (majority of votes cast by delegates, and a majority of votes cast by delegates from a majority of individual provinces). All other matters of business may be conducted by simples majority.” What this means is that former CA members will swamp the process and install their views on the new party. The first election may look like the PC Party, but, by 2008 it will have been taken over by the old Reform Party/CA ways. Where will Canadians turn then?

[dnsfurlan]

Rob,

Needless to say, perhaps, I find your outlook on the situation to be a very narrow one, much like that of the people who are opposing merger in the first place.

The new party will take on the shape of its membership. There is no questioning that.

First, what is your alternative? To have the PC Party has it currently stands dwindle down to the point where it has only a handful of seats and a membership that could be fit into a classroom at a local public school?

The fact that the PC Party feels that it is in a position of weakness in the new party is a testamnent to its rump status as a party as it already is.

Second, I think the new party will indeed attract supporters who did not find either party attractive anymore, including those PCers who left the party because it no longer appealed to them anymore.

You know 1+1 doesn't have to mean 1.5 for the Canadian Alliance. It could mean more than 2 for ALL Canadians, as recent polls bear out.

You ask, "Where will Canadians turn then" Well it hasn't been the PC Party for a long time.

Now they have one option that will be big-tent in nature, something the PC Party isn't in its current form.

There are a number of factors that will temper the Alliance takeover fears.

But the two main ones are:

1) A renewed membership that will include people from all regions in the country.

2) Political survival. No one who is in charge of the new party is solely interested in appeasing Alliance members. Politics doesn't work that way.

If you want to form government, you have to put on a face that can win seats in more than one region in the country.

And, whoever becomes leader, whether it be Stephen Harper, Jim Prentice, or the tooth ferry, they will need a message that is broad in scope.

You know, I don't hear the Alliance complaining about "takeover" every time Bernard Lord or Jim Prentice's name is mentioned.

I guess a double standard is OK in all of this. If PC leaders are suggested, hey, that's OK. If Alliance ones are, all Hell is going to break loose. Give me a break, man!