Is it time for our charter to be re-ratified

[Catchme]

Well, to be fair, we were discussinf a particularily vicious example of racism sentiment in this thread. It does not have to be balanced with 'other people" "all people" are racist's too, commentary in order to be discussed or pointed out for what it is..

Your province? Let it go? Most likely, most Albertans are not on the same page as you, and how is that seperatist movement going? I see you got NO seats in the last provincial election.

[guyser]

Perfectly racist comment, Margrace.

"There will always be ignorant and racist white people"

People like you make these types of comments and then wonder why people react badly to "minorities". Us ignorant, racist white people are tired of being the only people on the face of the planet that could possibly be racist. And you ignorant, racist white people making stupid comments such as this only serve to inflame the situation.

Geez, don't get your shorts in a knot. She is right and you guys should re-read her post. What part of "there will always be ignorant and rascist white people" was directed at you and what part of that post is wrong?

There always will be. It was you who added "Us ignorant ,rascist white people are tired..."

If you want to include yourself in there ...fine. I am not including myself in that group.That said, margrace should expand her views, she lets these little bon mots come out without any sense of context. Kind of like her Hitler reference in another thread.

But dont get your shorts all bunched.

[Argus]

Don't bother to post if you can't back up your BS with proof.

Ah divert from the point and attack the poster. Such an immature response, really....

I would suggest that you take to Canadian History. Long before us white guys arrived here the injuns had vast trade networks from South America to the Arctic

No, they actually didn't. They were small bands of savages who made war on and ate each other. The only sophisticated groups were in the far south - and mostly practiced human sacrifice rituals.

That is absolute fabrication, and actually borders on racism, it is so far from the truth.

Entirely true. Had you any knowledge of history, you'd realize that.

[Argus]

No, they actually didn't. They were small bands of savages who made war on and ate each other. The only sophisticated groups were in the far south - and mostly practiced human sacrifice rituals.

What is it with this board and it's overt anti-native sentiment?

Look at the natives we're responding to.

In any case, while not nicely stated, not sugar coated with the proper flattering weasel words towards natives, my response was entirely truthful.

[Argus]

No, they actually didn't. They were small bands of savages who made war on and ate each other. The only sophisticated groups were in the far south - and mostly practiced human sacrifice rituals.

What a pathetic ignorant response.

At about 100 years post contact the Iroquois Confederacy numbered 3.5 million people in about 700 agricultual villages spread out from where Georgia is today east to Quebec City,

The Iroquois made war on many people, many tribes, and also fought with the British and French. They tortured their captives to death, and were, by any neutral evaluation - savages. And Wikopedia says: According to Francis Parkman, the Iroquois were at the height of their power in the 17th century, with a population of around 12,000 people

What dumb archaeologists summarized as ritual sacrifice in the Aztec and Mayan societies were really autopsies.

I may be mistaken, because a lot of dumb things have been posted on this site, but this may well be the most laughably stupid thing anyone has ever said with an eye to be taken seriously.

[Argus]

Geez, don't get your shorts in a knot. She is right and you guys should re-read her post. What part of "there will always be ignorant and rascist white people" was directed at you and what part of that post is wrong?

It was probably aimed at me. But in any event, I believe what bothers him is the implication that Whites are in any way more likely to be racist or ignorant than, say, Blacks or natives. I can't say much about natives, though most of the ones who have appeared on this group can certainly be termed ignorant and racist, but the most racist, bigoted, sexist and ignorant people I've ever met in real life were all non-White.

[Catchme]

Don't bother to post if you can't back up your BS with proof.

Ah divert from the point and attack the poster. Such an immature response, really....

I would suggest that you take to Canadian History. Long before us white guys arrived here the injuns had vast trade networks from South America to the Arctic

No, they actually didn't. They were small bands of savages who made war on and ate each other. The only sophisticated groups were in the far south - and mostly practiced human sacrifice rituals.

That is absolute fabrication, and actually borders on racism, it is so far from the truth.

Entirely true. Had you any knowledge of history, you'd realize that.

Entirely false, and had you any knowledge of individual FN history, and Canadian history, you would most certainly realize that. There is nothing in history that shows they were anymore svage than any other cultural group

Condemning them for making war upon one another, is certainly ludicrous considering the war mentality/ climate of certain white peoples exhibited today and through out history.

And please do slap up some quoted facts detailing what FN's ate each other. As I notice you make contentions and never back them up.

[guyser]

It was probably aimed at me. But in any event, I believe what bothers him is the implication that Whites are in any way more likely to be racist or ignorant than, say, Blacks or natives. I can't say much about natives, though most of the ones who have appeared on this group can certainly be termed ignorant and racist, but the most racist, bigoted, sexist and ignorant people I've ever met in real life were all non-White.

No it wasn't.

There was no implication , you and hydraboss just wanted one.

[Posit]

Its a waste of time trying to teach an ignorant clod anything. When a guy uses Wikipedia as his sole source of history you know he is pretty low on the intelligence scale.

[Leafless]

Its a waste of time trying to teach an ignorant clod anything. When a guy uses Wikipedia as his sole source of history you know he is pretty low on the intelligence scale.

Your the clod that diverted this debate to Indians and DNA.

We were debating European explorers and not inconsequential land claims going back to prehistoric times.

[Posit]

Another ~intelligent~ response. Nothing I didn't expect from the lower class.

[Argus]

Another ~intelligent~ response. Nothing I didn't expect from the lower class.

Tell us more about how archaeologists got it all wrong and what they thought was human sacrifice was really early CSI labs, Posit.

We all want to admire your "intelligence" some more.

[Posit]

Yep they knew about the body long before Europeans started looking at their innards.

The also had astrology and physics well in hand long before it was even considered a curiosity in Europe. Even as we speak, world scientists have been consulting with the Navaho people to try to understand the advances that have been known for thousands of years.

In the scheme of things our European ancestors were pretty much outsmarted by the Mayan and later the Aztecs. And the autopsy thing? Ask an Aztec Elder....he or she will tell you about things the doctors still don't know about the body system.

[White Doors]

Yep they knew about the body long before Europeans started looking at their innards.

The also had astrology and physics well in hand long before it was even considered a curiosity in Europe. Even as we speak, world scientists have been consulting with the Navaho people to try to understand the advances that have been known for thousands of years.

In the scheme of things our European ancestors were pretty much outsmarted by the Mayan and later the Aztecs. And the autopsy thing? Ask an Aztec Elder....he or she will tell you about things the doctors still don't know about the body system.

haha

what a load of horse manure.

If they were so 'advanced' as you assert, why did they have such a problem coming up with the wheel??

'nuff said.

haha

[Posit]

Ah the wheel you say. That was invented by brown people from the middle east. Still the Europeans weren't smart enough to invent that either. Europeans were really dumb people as world inventions go.

[stignasty]

Ah the wheel you say. That was invented by brown people from the middle east. Still the Europeans weren't smart enough to invent that either. Europeans were really dumb people as world inventions go.

Europeans were really late getting the number zero too . . . something that was figured out in the Americas about a millennium earlier.

[Catchme]

Ah the wheel you say. That was invented by brown people from the middle east. Still the Europeans weren't smart enough to invent that either. Europeans were really dumb people as world inventions go.

This anti indigenous mentality combined with Eurpeon colonialistic xenophobia is really lack of adequate education:

Take the Maya for example:

The Maya are probably the best-known of the classical civilizations of Mesoamerica. Originating in the Yucatán around 2600 B.C., they rose to prominence around A.D. 250 in present-day southern Mexico, Guatemala, northern Belize and western Honduras. Building on the inherited inventions and ideas of earlier civilizations such as the Olmec, the Maya developed astronomy, calendrical systems and hieroglyphic writing. The Maya were noted as well for elaborate and highly decorated ceremonial architecture, including temple-pyramids, palaces and observatories, all built without metal tools. They were also skilled farmers, clearing large sections of tropical rain forest and, where groundwater was scarce, building sizeable underground reservoirs for the storage of rainwater. The Maya were equally skilled as weavers and potters, and cleared routes through jungles and swamps to foster extensive trade networks with distant peoples.

http://www.civilization.ca/civil/maya/mmc01eng.html

The Great Pyramid of Cholula, the world's largest monument and largest Pre-Columbian pyramid by volume, is a huge complex located in Cholula, Puebla, Mexico.

The temple-pyramid complex was built over many generations, from the 2nd century BC to the early 16th century, and was dedicated to the deity Quetzalcoatl. It has a base of 450 by 450 m (1476x1476 ft) and a height of 66 m (217 ft). According to the Guinness Book of Records, it is in fact the largest pyramid as well as the largest monument ever constructed anywhere in the world, with a total volume estimated at 4.45 million metres, almost one third larger than that of the Great Pyramid of Giza in Egypt. (The Giza pyramid is higher, however.) The Aztecs believed that Xelhua built the Great Pyramid of Cholula.

Here is good site about these so called savages early building capabilities and how their societies were very sophisticated long before Europeans were:

http://www.crystalinks.com/pyramidmesoamerica.html

http://www.crystalinks.com/nativeamer.html

Some of America's earliest high-rise architects lived in Chaco Canyon, New Mexico, between the tenth and twelfth centuries. Here these Anasazi designers and engineers built 12 great houses up to five stories high with hundreds of rooms. However, where the Chaco residents harvested the lumber for these enormous buildings is a question that has stumped archaeologists. Now scientists have found a way to let ancient timbers tell their secrets. Geochemist Nathan English, of the University of Arizona, has developed a chemical test to determine the origin of these trees.

The 12 Chaco dwellings together contain about 200,000 wooden beams that were used to construct the roofs. But the Chaco Canyon is an almost treeless landscape that was certainly never the source of the timber. When English analyzed the strontium ratios from the timber used to construct the houses, they matched those from spruce and pine trees located on mountaintops up to 60 miles (100 kilometers) away in the Chuska and San Mateo mountain ranges.It is amazing that the Chaco dwellers carried thousands of these enormous logs most of which measured about 5 meters (15 feet), about 22 cm (9 inches) in diameter and weighed about 275 kilograms (600 pounds) for up to one hundred kilometers, said English."

These findings amplify our suspicions that these people were tremendously well organized and socially powerful," says archaeologist Jeffrey Dean, also of the University of Arizona. It takes a lot of determination and coordination to harvest logs from up to 100 kilometers away and bring them back to the village, he added.English's team also found wood within single rooms that came from both the Chuska and San Mateo mountains, and that trees from different great houses were harvested in the same year.

http://www.crystalinks.com/anasazi.html

The Olmecs were the first civilization to build pyramids. Their pyramids resembled volcanoes. The other buildings, probably used as houses for the Olmec people, were rectangular huts made from plants and adobe. There were also buildings with wooden walls covered with clay and palm roofs. Underneath the cities and towns, the Olmecs built an underground, stone drainage system.

http://library.thinkquest.org/18778/olmec.htm

[Argus]

Yep they knew about the body long before Europeans started looking at their innards.

Yeah, that would be from laying the body on an alter and cutting out its heart to eat.

The also had astrology and physics well in hand long before it was even considered a curiosity in Europe.

And yet, they were still primitives, savages, easily crushed and pushed aside by the more advanced Europeans as soon as the two civilizations met.

In the scheme of things our European ancestors were pretty much outsmarted by the Mayan and later the Aztecs.

of course they were. Which is why Europe prospered and the Mayans and Aztecs... uh, where are they again?

And the autopsy thing? Ask an Aztec Elder....he or she will tell you about things the doctors still don't know about the body system.

No doubt. Like how your kidney stones are really a punishment from the Sun God.

[Argus]

Ah the wheel you say. That was invented by brown people from the middle east. Still the Europeans weren't smart enough to invent that either. Europeans were really dumb people as world inventions go.

Europeans were really late getting the number zero too . . . something that was figured out in the Americas about a millennium earlier.

Zero? That would be the technological advances made by natives over the course of many thousands of years.

[Argus]

This anti indigenous mentality combined with Eurpeon colonialistic xenophobia is really lack of adequate education:

Zat a fact? And where did you get your education? In what? When? Where?

[White Doors]

Ah the wheel you say. That was invented by brown people from the middle east. Still the Europeans weren't smart enough to invent that either. Europeans were really dumb people as world inventions go.

haha

Oh my. Yes, you have a HUGE white man guilt complex going on don't you?

You poor boy.

Ok, Michelangelo? The printing press?

Feudalism? Discovery of the new world and the first to communicate back and forth from it?

Sailing the world? World-wide trade?

The Renaissance? Capitalism? Aquaducts?

Indoor plumbing?

Crop rotation?

The internal Combustion engine? The steam engine?

The refracting telescope?

Submarine? Blood tranfusion? Barometer? Champagne? pocket watch? Steam pump? pressure cooker? Universal Joint? How about the piano? Classical music? fire extinguisher?

thermometer? The sextant? telegraph? eye glasses? parachute? bicycle?

battery? cotton gin? smallpox vacine?

Do you feel silly yet?

[Catchme]

White Doors said:haha Oh my. Yes, you have a HUGE white man guilt complex going on don't you?You poor boy

Accusing someon of having a "white mans" guilt complex to cover one's inalbility read threads and links and spouting things that are so a lack of education on what you are trying to condem is what is silly.

For that is what you have below and you are taking personal ownership of as if it was you who did some of those sorry can't be done unless you trace every genetica line and moreover you are not even correct with many of them. Nor do they support any notion of superiority of persons.

Ok, Michelangelo?

Whats does michelangelo have to do with this? Was he invented?

The printing press?

The printing press made by Guttenburg was a breal though for people all to have an education.

Feudalism? ??? The FN's had that down pat centuries before Europe did

Discovery of the new world and the first to communicate back and forth from it?

The FN of NA and SA sailed the Pacific all the time and they knew the earth was round long before Europeans admitted it.

Sailing the world?

Apparently, peoples of the pacific were sailing all over it from one length to another of course, if you had any ineterest in truths you would've have researched your claims.

World-wide trade?

Not only would there not have been world wide trade without FN's in the Amerias, North and South, many of their argicultural products exported to Europe.

The Renaissance?

FN's had their own sophisticated culture art work, music long before.

Capitalism?

Of course they did,they had tade networks from the far north right down into South America.

Aquaducts?Indoor plumbing?

Had you bothered to read the links above you would've known you were in error, they had it long around the same times a Romans crerated theirs. And Romans were not Europeans.

Crop rotation?

They were extremely well versed agrarians who had diverse crops.

The internal Combustion engine? The steam engine?

Those were not invented until way after NA inhabitation.

The refracting telescope?

Had you read above they had more knowledge of star system than those had after this creation.

Submarine?

Oh, yes that was such a humanitarian benefit to society. But it was also invented after precontact

Blood tranfusion? Barometer? Champagne? pocket watch? Steam pump? pressure cooker? Universal Joint? How about the piano? Classical music? fire extinguisher?

thermometer? The sextant? telegraph? eye glasses? parachute? bicycle?

battery? cotton gin? smallpox vacine?

Most of these things again things came about after contact and do not denote any type of superiority.

They did not have small pox in NA/SA until white man brought it to them.

Moreover, white man could not have settled successfully, nor expanded in NA without their assistance. Canada would NOT even be majority English if not for them. We would be French.

No were they an easily defeated people in the USA, like some seem to think.

In Canada, they were not defeated at all, they were lied to, used, abused, and spit out. Then subject to extreme propaganda smears and enforced living conditions. They did not even gain human status until the 1950's they were so ill used. Sickening really.

Do you feel silly yet?

No, but I know others that should be.

[White Doors]

Hey

Can you clean up your post so I can read it?

I'm not putting down FN peoples. All I am saying is the European society was MUCH more advanced at the time.

That is a fact. FN's didn't even have the WHEEL for gosh sakes.

Come on.

They didn;t even know how to ride a horse before the Europeans came over here.

Could be because they killed all of the North American horses off before they could learn how.

We are all humans of equal value, but European society was the most advanced in the world at the time of first contact. Of that there is no doubt.

[White Doors]

Had you bothered to read the links above you would've known you were in error, they had it long around the same times a Romans crerated theirs. And Romans were not Europeans.

Roman's are not Europeans? Rome is in Italy fyi. Check out a globe for verification.

For that is what you have below and you are taking personal ownership of as if it was you who did some of those sorry can't be done unless you trace every genetica line and moreover you are not even correct with many of them. Nor do they support any notion of superiority of persons.

I'm taking personal credit? haha ok, whatever helps your sleep at night.

Apparently, peoples of the pacific were sailing all over it from one length to another of course, if you had any ineterest in truths you would've have researched your claims.

They sailed it, sure - but they had no advanced trade routes like the Portugese for example.

FN's had their own sophisticated culture art work, music long before.

obtuse much? There are also cave drawings in France that are 13,000 years old. Not quite the renaissance in my opinion...

They were extremely well versed agrarians who had diverse crops.

Yes there are numerous examples where they farmed until the land was turned fallow and simply moved on to the next arable land to repeat the process.

Those were not invented until way after NA inhabitation.

Sorry, did you have a point to make here?

They did not have small pox in NA/SA until white man brought it to them.

Ever wonder why the 'White man' had a natural tolerance to this? it was because the 'white man' had advanced domesticatuion of animals millenia before FN's did. Small Pox is a disease of cows and pigs.

European society was Much much more advanced then the FN's were and that is a fact. They continued this dominance for hundreds of yeara after first contact as well.

This is all laid out for you in "Guns Germs and steal" You should read it. It won the pullitzer.

[Posit]

Boy are you ever out of touch. But is is not uncommon that people like you depnd on your myths rather than examine history with an open mind.

Ah the wheel you say. That was invented by brown people from the middle east. Still the Europeans weren't smart enough to invent that either. Europeans were really dumb people as world inventions go.

haha

Oh my. Yes, you have a HUGE white man guilt complex going on don't you?

You poor boy.

Ok, Michelangelo? The printing press?

Mayans were pressing clay tablets to record their history about 1500 years before the "Gutenburg" printing press was invented. Scientists have even confirmed that the clay pots recorded sounds from the era. Can you say sound recorder?

Feudalism? Discovery of the new world and the first to communicate back and forth from it?

The "New World wasn't discovered. It was bumped into first by Scandinavians and then much later by good old Chris Columbus lost on his way to China.

Sailing the world?

The Polynesians beat the Europeans to that too.

World-wide trade?

Heck the dumb Europeans didn't even know there was a world until the 1400s. The Indigenous peoples here had a far more advanced view of the world AND the universe long before Galileo set his eyes to the sky. I mentioned earlier about how the scientists are looking to the Navajos for help in solving physics problems....

The Renaissance?

I take it you mean "painting"? Of course art for the sake of art wasn't available to Europeans in general and was mostly reserved for the elite of European society. But painting for records for the people, now that is well documented around the Americas and the use of earthen pigments still outweighs the volatile heavy metal paints that killed most of the European artists.

Capitalism?

From the Mayan to the Iroquois, the Americas were involved in trade representing the finest of capitalism. What you ~think~ is capitalism that the Europeans brought here is nothing more than usury - a profit from slavery - and its is further form true capitalism than corporatism.

Aquaducts?

The Maya had aqueduct systems long before the Europeans ever knew what they were. Besides that is another technology invented by brown people form the Middle East.

Indoor plumbing?

Boy are you ever dumb. Up until the Europeans came here to the Americas, their hygiene was despicable. The rich Europeans only bathed once a year and the poor ones hardly ever in a lifetime. In contrast the practice of daily bathing was common in Iroquois society. And as for human wastes, the Europeans and their descendents are still pissing in our drinking water and crapping on our food. The natives were far advanced - including having indoor bathrooms and sweat lodges built into longhouses. Human wastes were place far away from the water and food crops.

Crop rotation?

This is another good one since Europeans and even Canadian farmers flood the lands with pesticides, and fertilizers. The idea of crop rotation to control insects and imropve crop yield was adopted from the Iroquois who had advanced knowledge of the relationship between plants, insects and soil fertility.

The internal Combustion engine?

Invented by an American long after he learned form the Indians.

The steam engine?

Invented by a brown fella, a Greek. Where is the steam engine today, huh?

The refracting telescope?

The Mayans had telescopes long before the Europeans. The oldest polished lens was found in South America it is still ranks as being more highly polished than technology can achieve today.

Submarine? Blood tranfusion? Barometer? Champagne? pocket watch? Steam pump? pressure cooker? Universal Joint? How about the piano? Classical music? fire extinguisher?

thermometer? The sextant? telegraph? eye glasses? parachute? bicycle?

battery? cotton gin? smallpox vacine?

Do you feel silly yet?

As to the rest of this tiring pathetic mythicsim you subscribe to, the majority was invented by people OTHER than Europeans. You see historically Europeans were either drunk (because they had to drink wine and beer due to pissing in their water), stoned on rye ergot they ingested in the grain, or just plain conquered people who had no time to invent much of anything. What they did have is a penchant for violence and so they stole most of the inventions discovered elsewhere and put them to use. In comparison to Native people of the past, Europeans were well behind in the technological race and if it hadn't been for the Huns or the Egyptians mingling with them it is highly likely that Europeans would still be in the dark ages. I would be careful about boasting too much. Historically Europeans were filthy, dumb and starving people. Is that what you are defending?

You really do need to read more rather than relying on your xenophobia to give you an answer to things you haven't a clue about......