Marijuana In Canada

[Guest American Woman]

So are you agreeing with the land of the free jailing all these drug users?

Or are you saying being like china is good?

I'm responding to the statistics that were quoted. The claim was made that the U.S. has the highest rate of incarceration and accounted for most of the world's prisoners. That's what I'm responding to. False statistics. So since China realistically has a higher rate, it's also incorrect to say we are "like China."

Edited October 9, 2007 by American Woman

[ScottSA]

you asked for a link, i gave you three. and the wikipedia site also meantions what you are missing-

"The United States has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated population." with references to this site to back up their claim-

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15960666/

You gave me three sites, one of which claims 1/4 of the world's prisoners are in the US...the world socialist website. Now you've obviously modified the wiki article which didn't say any such thing yesterday, and cited MSNBC...which doesn't say it either.

[shavluk]

Excuse me but it says based on population.

Redo the math.

And you still miss the obvious ,,, 2 million in US jails ,,70-80% for victimless drug crimes.

Are you justifying your view because you gave some arbitrary figure from some non linked information?

Americanwomen please tell me you aren't scotts wife? are you?

Are you really trying to justify the numbers in US jails?

You think this is right?

Have you ever tried any illegal drug?

[M.Dancer]

Redo the math.

And you still miss the obvious ,,, 2 million in US jails ,,70-80% for victimless drug crimes.

From 1995 until 2003, inmates in federal prison for drug offenses have accounted for 49 percent of total prison population growth.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15960666/

ahh 49%.....70-80%....whatever...pass the bong

[shavluk]

Thats a good link.

I am quoting LEAP.cc

LAW ENFORCEMENT AGAINST PROHIBITION

Still though out side the numbers it still is sad.

[ScottSA]

Excuse me but it says based on population.

Redo the math.

Redoing the math is not going to help me find a viable citation for the claim that 1/4 of the world's prison population is in the US.

Have you ever tried any illegal drug?

Quite a few, actually, and quite a bit of each. Especially pot, mushrooms (some of which I picked on the island myself), and acid. Then I grew up, had kids, and stopped everything but the occasional toke, and I haven't even done that for a year or two. Just more important fish to fry, I guess. I rather like not having to complain about drug raids on my house or attempting to make a credo out of a psychological crutch. If you want to bounce around the internet making harebrained claims in semiliterate blurts of text, go for it, but don't expect most adults to follow along.

Edited October 9, 2007 by ScottSA

[trex]

You gave me three sites, one of which claims 1/4 of the world's prisoners are in the US...the world socialist website. Now you've obviously modified the wiki article which didn't say any such thing yesterday, and cited MSNBC...which doesn't say it either.

i modified what?

heh, you got to be kidding me... i dont have time for this. i dont even know how to do that.

man you are out on a limb!

i didnt go back and read it today, just remembering what they said. yes i believe the socialist website may have said 22%, wikipedia said 25%. MSNBC, cant remember. But the headline was 7 million, same as wikipedias number,

hey, you think i modified wikipedia?

tsk

... dont they have a review panel that decides what edits are allowed? yes i believe they do.

theres some kind of software, a website that tells you the history of wikipedia edits... please go and find it and download it for us. just to see who modified it, if at all. i would like to see the date it was last modified, and by whom.

[ScottSA]

yes i believe the socialist website may have said 22%, wikipedia said 25%. MSNBC, cant remember. But the headline was 7 million, same as wikipedias number,

Don't know who modified Wiki, but someone has since yesterday, when I checked those sources, and whoever did referenced the MSN article which does not back it up.

Edit to add: But I did note behind the scenes, that someone wrote this:

"Removed "(the U.S. prison pop) is around 22% of the total world prison population" for all of the reasons noted in talk. Without accurate data for various countries the assertion is specious. Prison lists nine million incarcerated worldwide--North Korea alone would almost certainly take this up 5-10%. Make a guesstimate from [5]. Marskell 11:16, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Edited October 9, 2007 by ScottSA

[trex]

Don't know who modified Wiki, but someone has since yesterday, when I checked those sources, and whoever did referenced the MSN article which does not back it up.

i tell you that is what it read, which is what i based my claims on. i did not modify my own post here sonce yesterday either, so where do my claims come from? that was the web site i referenced for my data, i provided the link and said it was 25%. you read it, and i havent modified my posting, still says 25.

so, I read it that way yesterday myself... are we having a problem facing the fact that we are wrong? no one has modified the post.

and i told you how to prove it...

next

[ScottSA]

Whatever...it doesn't matter anyway, since the MSN article used as a citation doesn't make that ridiculous claim, leaving only the wsw as the only source. Not good enough by a longshot, sorry.

[shavluk]

7 million is still quite a large number where i come from and they are needlessly there in the statistics.

[ScottSA]

7 million is still quite a large number where i come from and they are needlessly there in the statistics.

Well maybe they ought to stop using drugs if they don't want to be in jail. What do you think?

[shavluk]

Nope !

Not unless alcohol and sugar are also illegal.

Some of my support out on the road as the FREEDOM TOUR.ca

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c91/shav...ruckoct2007.jpg

[Higgly]

Well maybe they ought to stop using drugs if they don't want to be in jail. What do you think?

This forum is for political debate. In otherwords, for debate concerning things like legislation. Saying somebody should stop breaking the law if they don't want to be put in jail is irrelevant and even silly. We are here to debate the law.

[ScottSA]

This forum is for political debate. In otherwords, for debate concerning things like legislation. Saying somebody should stop breaking the law if they don't want to be put in jail is irrelevant and even silly. We are here to debate the law.

You debate whatever you want Higgy, but don't run around telling others what to do in the forum, ok? I know you want to direct everything and report everyone you don't like, but why don't you just worry about you and leave other people alone?

[shavluk]

scotty

Are the owner here?

You are lucky there is a statute of limitations on drug crime as you yourself may be the best example of damage from illegal drug use.

[ScottSA]

Nope !

Not unless alcohol and sugar are also illegal.

Some of my support out on the road as the FREEDOM TOUR.ca

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c91/shav...ruckoct2007.jpg

Very cool. I can almost hear the roar of the crowd now. You should get pretty much every vote between the ages of 14 and 17. But why aren't you actually listed as a candidate?

[Higgly]

You debate whatever you want Higgy, but don't run around telling others what to do in the forum, ok? I know you want to direct everything and report everyone you don't like, but why don't you just worry about you and leave other people alone?

Heh, heh. Got our fingers slapped for name-calling did we? Nice to see you've learned your lesson, ScottSA.

[ScottSA]

Heh, heh. Got our fingers slapped for name-calling did we? Nice to see you've learned your lesson, ScottSA.

Actually, no. I thought you did though, what with trying to raise a lynch mob to string me up. That seems to have fallen flat on its face, though. Oh well, keep your finger jammed on the report button, maybe some day...

[Higgly]

Actually, no. I thought you did though, what with trying to raise a lynch mob to string me up. That seems to have fallen flat on its face, though. Oh well, keep your finger jammed on the report button, maybe some day...

Hmmm. Aren't we a little off-topic here?

<<begin public service announcement>>

Anybody else out there who has had problems with name-calling - there is a button called Report on every post. Don't hesitate to click it.

<<end public service announcement>>

And now, I'd like to suggest we get back to the thread topic....

[Guest American Woman]

Excuse me but it says based on population.

Redo the math.

And you still miss the obvious ,,, 2 million in US jails ,,70-80% for victimless drug crimes.

Are you justifying your view because you gave some arbitrary figure from some non linked information?

Americanwomen please tell me you aren't scotts wife? are you?

Are you really trying to justify the numbers in US jails?

You think this is right?

Have you ever tried any illegal drug?

Sorry, but after this response, I'm no longer interested in wasting my time in 'discussion' with you.

[trex]

numerous sources including the bbc claim china has 1.5 million prisoners.

compared to the united states, self admitted 2.4 million, or so.

now what i think mr. shav was trying to say was, given china has 3 times the US population approximately, that makes US musch worse per capita, because it has 2.4 million out of 300 million people!

that is not counting the ones on parole, ir the ones who are no longer on parole but are ex-cons with criminal records for the rest of their lives...

of course i would rather live in usa than china any day, that not whats really being said here. ets drop china for a moment, and look at the US vs other free western countries... thats what we should use as a comparator for evaluating freedom.

[Guest American Woman]

Report: 7 million Americans in justice system

One in every 32 U.S. adults behind bars, on probation or on parole in 2005

I'd like to point out that the 7 million figure includes people "on probation" as well as those "on parole." Those on probation and parole are not in prison. Those who got "probation" likely never saw the inside of a jail cell. I can't help but notice the statistics for "probation and parole" for every other nation have not been posted.

[Guest American Woman]

numerous sources including the bbc claim china has 1.5 million prisoners.

compared to the united states, self admitted 2.4 million, or so.

now what i think mr. shav was trying to say was, given china has 3 times the US population approximately, that makes US musch worse per capita, because it has 2.4 million out of 300 million people!

that is not counting the ones on parole, ir the ones who are no longer on parole but are ex-cons with criminal records for the rest of their lives...

of course i would rather live in usa than china any day, that not whats really being said here. ets drop china for a moment, and look at the US vs other free western countries... thats what we should use as a comparator for evaluating freedom.

And as I pointed out, it's highly unlikely that China would be giving accurate statistics. So it's not numerous sources that say that China has 1.5 million prisoners, but numerous sources repeating the claim. Many of those sources also point out what I already pointed out:

China's true prison population has been speculated to be considerable higher by activists such as Harry Wu.

The prison population in China was 111 per 100,000 in 2001 (sentenced prisoners only), although this figure is highly disputed. Chinese human rights activist Harry Wu, who spent 19 years in forced-labor camps for criticizing the government, estimates that 16 to 20 million of his countrymen are incarcerated, including common criminals, political prisoners, and people in involuntary job placements. Link

So we've got about 710 people per 100,000 behind bars while China likely has, going with the high of 20 million, 1586 per 100,000. Even if you go with the low of 16 million, it's considerably higher than ours.

As I said before, I'm only responding to the statistics that were quoted since in all likelihood they are not correct. I cannot believe anyone would think China would give out accurate information regarding their prisons. Do they even include those who are in forced labor camps? I doubt it, but that is 'imprisonment' all the same.

Furthermore, what "mr shav" was saying was said with rudeness and insults when I gave absolutely no cause for such a response.

Edited October 9, 2007 by American Woman

[trex]

if those other numbers are right, then you can reassure yourself that US is better than china. fine... and maybe even most of the other so-called axis of evil countries, or whatever.

but that is hardly good enough a comparator, the harsh dictatorships. are we saying, the US is the best of the harsh dictatorships?

or the worst of the so-called free world?

we can certainly trust the numbers from those countries, like Britain, or Canada. you know what it means if we do that... We could take a look at the graph

some people call it, the prison-industrial system, with the drug war pumping the money. Jails is big business, lots of jobs. I heard some states offer incentives to build the supermax prisons there, is this true?

Just asking...

forget about the numbers, forget about china... what is it saying, the article talks about the fallout of criminal stigma for the families, the kids who gets their parents taken away. sure the parents broke the law, sure they have an addiction. no one denies this, but the question is does the punishment fit the crime? theres people in the US in jail for 20 years, for growing 3 plants in his basement. they were his plants, not for sale but he was still charged with cultivation, treated more punitively. since he used his basement to grow the plants, his house came under rules of forfeiture, family home gone... among thousands of other horror stories. basically mandatory minimus allows no exception, no judges discretion for extenuating circumstances.