Is Any Criticism of Israel

[Figleaf]

...Irgun warned of the King David Hotel attack beforehand and the Brits wouldn't "lower" themselves to listening to th ewarning. The result was tragic. ...

Blaming the victim?

Also, the King David Hotel was a military target,...

So were the soldiers Hezbollah captured last year.

[geoffrey]

So were the soldiers Hezbollah captured last year.

And so was the Hezbollah terrorists that Israel bombed and the government that was harbouring them (or not enforcing the rule of law within it's land).

[jbg]

...Irgun warned of the King David Hotel attack beforehand and the Brits wouldn't "lower" themselves to listening to th ewarning. The result was tragic. ...

Blaming the victim?

No, stating historical fact. According to Wikipedia (link):

A warning message was delivered to the telephone operator of the King David Hotel before the attack and also delivered to the French consulate and the Palestine Post newspaper. According to Irgun sources, the message read "I am speaking on behalf of the Hebrew underground. We have placed an explosive device in the hotel. Evacuate it at once - you have been warned."

Irgun representatives have always claimed that the warning was given well in advance so that adequate time was available to evacuate the hotel. Menachem Begin writes (p. 221, The Revolt, <1951> ed.) that the telephone message was delivered 25 - 27 minutes before the explosion. The British authorities denied for many years that there had been a warning at all, but the leaking of the internal police report on the bombing during the 1970s proved that a warning had indeed been received. However, the report claimed that the warning was only just being delivered to the officer in charge as the bomb went off (Bethel). According to Begin, the British had been warned of the bombing but refused to evacuate the building because "We don't take orders from the Jews".

[scribblet]

Quick post..... take a look and take the quiz

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.h...35-7360b11f24dd

Are you a liberal anti-Semite? Take this quiz and find out!

JOE LANZMANN, National Post

Published: Friday, February 16, 2007

After years of rising concern about left-wing anti-Semitism, The New York Times reported recently about a study for the American Jewish Committee. Written by professor Alvin Rosenfeld of Indiana University, the study describes the spread of a virulent anti-Zionism in many quarters of the Western left that has helped legitimate anti-Semitism. Some people have seized on the study to argue that these extreme anti-Zionists are really anti-Jewish bigots. Critics reply that criticizing Israel, even harshly, doesn't prove animus toward the Hebrew people.

[Catchme]

In February of 1944, under the new leadership of Menachem Begin, who would later become prime minister of Israel, Irgun resumed hostilities against the British authorities. The purpose of these attacks was to increase the cost of British mandatory rule and influence British public opinion so as to encourage British withdrawal. It included attacks on prominent symbols of the British administration, including the British military, police, and civil headquarters at the King David Hotel on July 22, 1946 which killed 91 people and the British prison in Acre. Although these attacks were largely successful, several Irgun operatives were captured, convicted, and hanged. Refusing to accept the jurisdiction of the British courts, those accused refused to defend themselves. The Irgun leadership ultimately responded to these executions by hanging two British sergeants, which effectively brought the executions to an end.

Ironically, it sounds like Irgun's methods are the model for present Palestinian militants' practices.

What this excerpt doesn't tell is that the Irgun warned of the King David Hotel attack beforehand and the Brits wouldn't "lower" themselves to listening to th ewarning. The result was tragic. Also, the King David Hotel was a military target, not a falafel stand.

The act against the King David Hotel was terrorism.

After answering scribblets linked to quiz I received this score:

answer. 0-2 OK, you're not an anti- Semite. But you're not a liberal either. (shock)

[Figleaf]

So were the soldiers Hezbollah captured last year.

And so was the Hezbollah terrorists that Israel bombed and the government that was harbouring them (or not enforcing the rule of law within it's land).

And so WASN'T the Beirut airport that Israel bombed as an apparent act of collective punishment against Lebannon.

[Figleaf]

...Irgun warned of the King David Hotel attack beforehand and the Brits wouldn't "lower" themselves to listening to th ewarning. The result was tragic. ...

Blaming the victim?

No, stating historical fact.

It just sort of sounded like you were saying if they had given in to the terrorists warnings they wouldn't have had the tragegy.

... the telephone message was delivered 25 - 27 minutes before the explosion.

My my, what a comfort. Such a generous timeframe, when dealing with lives and explosives.

[Figleaf]

Quick post..... take a look and take the quiz

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.h...35-7360b11f24dd

Are you a liberal anti-Semite? Take this quiz and find out!

JOE LANZMANN, National Post

Published: Friday, February 16, 2007

After years of rising concern about left-wing anti-Semitism, The New York Times reported recently about a study for the American Jewish Committee. Written by professor Alvin Rosenfeld of Indiana University, the study describes the spread of a virulent anti-Zionism in many quarters of the Western left that has helped legitimate anti-Semitism. Some people have seized on the study to argue that these extreme anti-Zionists are really anti-Jewish bigots. Critics reply that criticizing Israel, even harshly, doesn't prove animus toward the Hebrew people.

That quiz is exactly the kind of thing this topic is about. This yutz imputes anti-semitism based on whether one matches his political views or not.

[M.Dancer]

... the telephone message was delivered 25 - 27 minutes before the explosion.

My my, what a comfort. Such a generous timeframe, when dealing with lives and explosives.

About 3 times the time necessary for an evacuation and a 1/4 of the time needed to defuse a bomb.....mind you, palestinian terrorists give ample warning too, unfotunately the warnings sound exactly like an arab asking for tahini on the falafel...hence the civilian fatalities

[M.Dancer]

So were the soldiers Hezbollah captured last year.

And so was the Hezbollah terrorists that Israel bombed and the government that was harbouring them (or not enforcing the rule of law within it's land).

And so WASN'T the Beirut airport that Israel bombed as an apparent act of collective punishment against Lebannon.

Absolutely...I mean...who ever heard of cargo shipments carrying spare aparts and munitions from Iran and syria.....IMPOSSIBLE!!!

And of course whenthe roads and bridges to Syria were targetted, that was collective punishment too...I think when they started targetting hazbollah...that was collective punishment too........

[jbg]

... the telephone message was delivered 25 - 27 minutes before the explosion.

My my, what a comfort. Such a generous timeframe, when dealing with lives and explosives.

About 3 times the time necessary for an evacuation and a 1/4 of the time needed to defuse a bomb.....mind you, palestinian terrorists give ample warning too, unfotunately the warnings sound exactly like an arab asking for tahini on the falafel...hence the civilian fatalities

You hit the nail on the head. The Irgun, as despicable a group as they were, aimed at primarily a military target and even then tried to minimize loss of life. The goal of Hamas and the Palestinian Authority is quite the opposite.

[Catchme]

...Irgun warned of the King David Hotel attack beforehand and the Brits wouldn't "lower" themselves to listening to th ewarning. The result was tragic. ...

Blaming the victim?

No, stating historical fact.

It just sort of sounded like you were saying if they had given in to the terrorists warnings they wouldn't have had the tragegy.

... the telephone message was delivered 25 - 27 minutes before the explosion.

My my, what a comfort. Such a generous timeframe, when dealing with lives and explosives.

It was of course an attempt to blame the victim, instead of blamming the terrorists who did the attacking.

They wanted the Brits out and had a provisional government in the ready to step in. This was all done in a vacuum, as the Palestinians were leaderless as they were in exile. There was no huge military victory by the Jews and the Jews on the land at that time were in no danger of extermination.

The new historiographical picture is a fundamental challenge to the official history that says the Jewish community in Palestine faced possible annihilation on the eve of the 1948 war. Archival documents expose a fragmented Arab world wrought by dismay and confusion and a Palestinian community that possessed no military ability with which to threaten the Jews. The Arab world went about announcing its commitment to the Palestinians in strident, war-like rhetoric, but it did little on the ground to save Palestine.

From the moment London decided to refer the Palestine Mandate to the United Nations—from February 1947 onwards—the Jewish leadership in Palestine effectively mobilized its community and prepared it for the takeover of the Mandatory government and its functions. The Palestinian leadership, with its prominent members exiled abroad by the British, did very little in this direction, and failed to organize its community financially or militarily.

http://www.ameu.org/page.asp?iid=35&aid=427&pg=4

[Figleaf]

... the telephone message was delivered 25 - 27 minutes before the explosion.

My my, what a comfort. Such a generous timeframe, when dealing with lives and explosives.

About 3 times the time necessary for an evacuation and a 1/4 of the time needed to defuse a bomb.....mind you, palestinian terrorists give ample warning too, unfotunately the warnings sound exactly like an arab asking for tahini on the falafel...hence the civilian fatalities

You hit the nail on the head. The Irgun, as despicable a group as they were, aimed at primarily a military target and even then tried to minimize loss of life. The goal of Hamas and the Palestinian Authority is quite the opposite.

Ahh, that's the difference then!

Irgun merely killed people with bombs, whereas Hamas has KILLED PEOPLE WITH BOMBS.

Or maybe the difference is Hamas has a grievance whereas Irgun had an agenda.

[Figleaf]

So were the soldiers Hezbollah captured last year.

And so was the Hezbollah terrorists that Israel bombed and the government that was harbouring them (or not enforcing the rule of law within it's land).

And so WASN'T the Beirut airport that Israel bombed as an apparent act of collective punishment against Lebannon.

Absolutely...I mean...who ever heard of cargo shipments carrying spare aparts and munitions from Iran and syria.....IMPOSSIBLE!!!

No impossible, but certainly unproven.

[jbg]

There's something missing from all of this discussion. The Jews were doing something productive with the land. The Arabs were not.

[Catchme]

There's something missing from all of this discussion. The Jews were doing something productive with the land. The Arabs were not.

That is a red herring and has absolutely NO bearing upon anything.

[Rue]

Israel can be critized but not demonized, and that is the difference. Israel has a democracy where political debate happens among Jews of differing opinions - but - they all agree that their homeland must survive. That is not true of many Israel’s critics around the world an IMHO the larger issue here. They may not be anti semitic, but they drive a not so benign and disengenuous agenda to see Israel gone, actions and words that they know give comfort and aid to those who do work towards Israel's destrucion.

Thank you. That was the point. I am Jewish and I criticize certain Israeli policies and most certainly criticize Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Judaism.

However when I engage in criticism against Israel I take great care because I know non-Jews will use it as a pretense to justify demonizing Israel and try twist my words around to do just that.

The issue whether one is Jewish or non Jewish when criticizing Israeli policy is exactly the same. Criticizing Israeli policies is a fair and democratic thing to do and no one is questioning that.

What people and not just Jewish people challenge is when people claim to be criticizing Israeli political, economic or social policies but in fact;

i-engage in negative generalizations against all Jews

ii-state Israel is evil

iii-deny Israel has the right to exist

iv-promulgate misrepresentations against the Jewish religion

v-promulgate misprepresentations as to the history of Israel, history of Jewsand the origin of Jews

vi-use debates against Israeli policies to express hatred towards all Israelis or all Jews.

So please do not try tell me a Jew, that I worry when other Jews get mad at me for criticizing Israel or suggest that we Jews can't handle fights between ourselves as to the future of Israel. Thank you very much but we can handle freedom of speech and dialogue.

The very pith and substance of being Jewish is to question everything and anything.

[Rue]

... the telephone message was delivered 25 - 27 minutes before the explosion.

My my, what a comfort. Such a generous timeframe, when dealing with lives and explosives.

About 3 times the time necessary for an evacuation and a 1/4 of the time needed to defuse a bomb.....mind you, palestinian terrorists give ample warning too, unfotunately the warnings sound exactly like an arab asking for tahini on the falafel...hence the civilian fatalities

You hit the nail on the head. The Irgun, as despicable a group as they were, aimed at primarily a military target and even then tried to minimize loss of life. The goal of Hamas and the Palestinian Authority is quite the opposite.

Ahh, that's the difference then!

Irgun merely killed people with bombs, whereas Hamas has KILLED PEOPLE WITH BOMBS.

Or maybe the difference is Hamas has a grievance whereas Irgun had an agenda.

Its precisely people like the above that cause me and many others to be careful when we engage in any dialogue critical of Israel. We realize posters such as the above have a singular agenda to simply state Israel is "wrong" or "evil" . We weigh our words so we do not have to get into ludicrous debates with such people whose sole interest is to deny the existence of Israel and portray all Jews not just Israelis as evil.

[Rue]

... the telephone message was delivered 25 - 27 minutes before the explosion.

My my, what a comfort. Such a generous timeframe, when dealing with lives and explosives.

About 3 times the time necessary for an evacuation and a 1/4 of the time needed to defuse a bomb.....mind you, palestinian terrorists give ample warning too, unfotunately the warnings sound exactly like an arab asking for tahini on the falafel...hence the civilian fatalities

You hit the nail on the head. The Irgun, as despicable a group as they were, aimed at primarily a military target and even then tried to minimize loss of life. The goal of Hamas and the Palestinian Authority is quite the opposite.

With due respect you are trying to raise your voice to a deaf man.

[jbg]

With due respect you are trying to raise your voice to a deaf man.

Rue, I appreciate the respect. I post not just for the benefit of the screen name I'm responding to, but for the entire board. A particular holder of a screen name might not be reasonable, but others reading the board are.

[PolyNewbie]

"Its is not anti simetic to criticize the sate of Israel"

Colin Powel

[PolyNewbie]

jbg:The goal of Hamas and the Palestinian Authority is quite the opposite.

Hamas doesn't have laser guided weapons and they don't drop super bombs that completely destroy entire apartment complexes.

Israel has the capability of not hitting things like red cross trucks yet they choose to bulls - eye them.

Hamas does not wake Israelis up in the middle of the night, throw them out of their houses with nothing but the clothes on their backs and proceed to bulldoze their houses.

Hamas does not illegally occupy land.

All that is comming here and you can see it and you know it because they have abolished the Magna Carta and put sub machine guns into the hands of the police. The police stand there with their sub machine guns ready to mow down peaceful protesters. Any one of us can be legally dragged from our homes and secretly executed, tortured or sent to Christmas Island for medical experiments.

Hamas does not have its members stepping away and saying that something is wrong with what they are doing. IDF does.

Get off your high horse and open your eyes. You cannot be this stupid and still know how to use a computer.

[marcinmoka]

I agree with Melanies post, that legitimate criticism should be allowed.

But on the other hand, am baffled at how political discussions and/or rhetoric all too often start with: "Israel is violating international law........" but somehow manage to end with: "......... Israel must be wiped off the map".

In other words, legitimate criticism is very often used as a stepping stone, a means for "setting the tone" for what turns into an absurdly hateful provocation.

[marcinmoka]

Hamas doesn't have laser guided weapons and they don't drop super bombs that completely destroy entire apartment complexes.

But if they did, do you think they would think twice about using them?

Hamas does not wake Israelis up in the middle of the night, throw them out of their houses with nothing but the clothes on their backs and proceed to bulldoze their houses.

Yes, sending a suicide bomber is much more cost effective.

Hamas does not have its members stepping away and saying that something is wrong with what they are doing. IDF does.

This is true. They're just either killed, or join Fatah.

[PolyNewbie]

But if they did, do you think they would think twice about using them?

I don't know and the minority report should not apply here (nor anywhere else)

Yes, sending a suicide bomber is much more cost effective.

Sending suicide bombers is an indication of giving up against an evil that you cannot live with. Its not crazy.