Iraqi Debt Relief

[Craig Read]

Time to formally forgive all Iraqi debt issued under Hussein's insane regime. France, Germany and Russia will lose billions. And yes Victoria this is why they were opposed to the war.

The best current guess on Iraq's debt comes to $150-to-$200 billion. Worse, Iraq also needs somewhere in the neighborhood of $10 billion a year over the next five years for rebuilding power plants and other reconstruction. And worse still is that these amounts must be handled in a way that does not decimate Iraq's domestic operating budget, which needs to run in the neighborhood of $13 billion a year.

Considering the Frogs and Teutons contributed ZERO at Madrid, debt forgiveness is a necessity.

[the$%mexican]

hello I am new to this message board and look forward to disscusing political ideals with you

as to your dumb racist stament the EU has already contirbuted money to iraq already. they have contributed 730 million euros already in humanitarian aid since the war started and the EU has approved another 141 mill euros ontop of that sum. that is enough to pledge considering the fact that this is an illegal war. as to the fact of forgiving iraqs towering debt I belive that there debt should be cut in half or so, and have %35 of there oil revenues to go twords repaying there debt. but I have honestley no idea about that and how they will go about repaying the debt.

[Hugo]

they have contributed 730 million euros already in humanitarian aid since the war started and the EU has approved another 141 mill euros ontop of that sum.

Oooh, boy. That converts to about $1bn. This balanced against $150-200bn of debt and $10bn per year - I wouldn't be looking to the EU to rebuild Iraq any time soon.

[righturnonred]

Yeah, thanks for the peanuts EU.

[SirRiff]

the liars who kept blabbing about aluminum tubes and huge stockpiles of WMDs are the ones who should pay the price for thier lies. europe never said it had lots of cash laying around ready to hadn over to rumsfelds great plan.

if america thinks its qualified to go against the worlds opinion and not wait for the UN, then they should have cash on hand and show everyone how its done.

if iraq is a flourishing democracy in a few years and we are digging up millions of tons of WMDS then the US can thumb thier nose at teh world with reason.

sirriff

[Ender]

Iraq will never become a democracy, thats one thing the U.S. should have thought about. I'm not supporting their old regime but at least they had order and law under Suddam. It will take a very long time for the middle eastern countries to convert to democracy.

What the Iraq's have needed is one main figure head to lead the majority of them, otherwise there's complete chaos. A leader needs absolute control that a republic or democracy can not give him. The Iraq's will also never support anyone the U.S. puts into power so the good ol' U.S. of A needs to "oppose" a political grower, or take other drastic measures.

[Craig Read]

Wrong. Any country can become a democracy - just look at Fascist Germany, Fascist Japan and other assorted Fascist/Communist dictatorships. It takes time and the right institutions. You don't rebuild a shattered country in 5 years let alone 6 months. Guys like Riff who sniff that Iraq will fail are wrong. These were the same clowns who maintained that Japan would not be rebuilt and that Nazi Germany must be bulldozed and made into agricultural land and its people enslaved since of course Germans did not understand democracy. You hear the same nonsense when discussing the FSU.

As for the EU, someone posted they already contributed 700 million. This is false. They have contribued nothing to Iraq.

The EU opposed the Iraqi war to get their money out.

This is obvious now that France and Germany will do nothing to aid reconstruction. So much for socialist morality.

[Ender]

Your perfectly right about the democracy. Kill enough people, spend enough money, beat people into submission, and pretty soon you'll be able to force a democracy. Now the people may not be happy, but look at the U.S., are there people exactly "happy".

All I'm saying is the chances are very slim that a government "for the people and by the people" will fly real well in Iraq, right now they seem to be enjoying an Anarchy.

[KrustyKidd]

By "they" do you mean the minute amount of headline grabbing antagonists that carry out these acts of violence against a government (Iraqi Ruling Council formed by the US to effect a transition to a Legitimate Iraqi Government) or do you mean the average Iraqi who is so out of touch with anything other than violence and terror to be not be able to recognize a benevolent government if it ran over them?

As for forcing a Democracy, cut us some slack. Once the US leaves then they can chose to adopt the way of life they please. If given that chance I highly doubt it will be Torture by Dictator as you seem to infer.

[Ender]

Will the US really leave? There's to much at stake fro them. If they abandon Iraq they lose face to the internatonal communitity and the UN. There is also to much oil in Iraq for the US to not have a major power hold of the politics there. HTey need to make sure that when the country settles out and oil production is back at its peak, that they have someone who is certain to sell to them.

[KrustyKidd]

Will the US really leave? There's to much at stake fro them

I would imagine so. If their intention was to stay then they certainly would not go through all the pain in the butt efforts to build a democracy. Instead they would have just gone the simpler, less violent and inexpensive route by just installing their own evil - US friendly dictator from day one. The streets would be quiet and the only loser would be Saddam. The winners would be the US and the new evil dictator. That is not what they are doing though is it? All parties from the most radical Islamist to the Soldier getting shot at agree that they will get out. The problem is what is going to be left when they do. Will it be a warlord ruled chaos like the miltants want? A religious thocracy like the Islamists want? A same old - same old dictatorship like the former regeime members want or a democracy like every American and Iraqi wants?

Incidently the oil contracts so far have mainly gone to European interests.

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iraq (news - web sites)'s state oil marketing company SOMO on Thursday awarded its first post-war tender to sell 10 million barrels of crude held in storage but only one U.S. company was among the six winners.

The tender was won by Spanish refiners Repsol and Cepsa, Turkish Tupras, Italian ENI and French Total while ChevronTexaco was the only U.S. company.

HTey need to make sure that when the country settles out and oil production is back at its peak, that they have someone who is certain to sell to them.

Ender, in the world of business people sell a product for what it is worth. It matters not who the buyer is, what color they are or what religion. The only thing that matters is if they are paying the going price. Oil is sold on the world market on an exchange similar to the stock market. If the US pays the going rate then they will have oil. If they do not then they will not. It's really quite simple.

[Craig Read]

The current Economist has a good article on the oil cartel that might just be on its way to being broken up [another good reason to be in Iraq btw]. $7 trillion according to this article, has been transferred just from the US to the Arab countries in higher than market prices for oil.

Time to bust this.

As for the Democrats and the war on terror, given that Dean and Clarke are the front runners, and both have maintained that Iraq is a disaster, I expect fully, that IF [and they won't], but IF the Demos win in 2004 they will pull out of Iraq within 6 months [glittering applause will follow in the EU, the UNO and in Canada].

I don't see how Clarke can win unless he makes a deal with the Demo left wing on Iraq and increasing taxes. Dean is so far to the left he will fall off the map soon.

Let's hope that Bush wins - I think he will - in fact he should win 35 states.

[Ender]

It matters not who the buyer is, what color they are or what religion. The only thing that matters is if they are paying the going price. Oil is sold on the world market on an exchange similar to the stock market. If the US pays the going rate then they will have oil. If they do not then they will not. It's really quite simple.

Remember the Oil embargo of the 70's? OPEC raised prices dramaticaly as the US dollar fell. The economy simply plumited, and oil prices soared. What with OPEC still in power, the major oil producers could cut the US off and still be rolling in the dough.

Bush will not allow himself to lose power in Iraq. If nothing else he will try to put someone into power (like the US did originally with some other dictators).

[KrustyKidd]

Remember the Oil embargo of the 70's? OPEC raised prices dramaticaly as the US dollar fell. The economy simply plumited, and oil prices soared. What with OPEC still in power, the major oil producers could cut the US off and still be rolling in the dough.

Yes they could. They would not do that for many reasons. One is that they have to have the same price across the board. The second is that if the price is too high (in order to harm the US) then they harm other nations. A third point is that once oil becomes overvalued people do not buy as much and you now have a glut. A glut is bad in that now you have a heck of a lot of oil doing nothing. A best case scenario is that you are not making more money but rather the same. A worst case is that nobody is buying it as it is so expensive. Once the price goes down (due to the fact there is more oil than you can shake a stick at) you are pumping like crazy but not makng anything. A fourth reason is the fact that if these up and down events occur too often then your market will seek alternative sources (pumping their own reserves to make up for shortfalls or reinvesting in electric alternatives or ethanol.) This will severely cut your bottom line for years to come if this is allowed to happen. The last reason is simply that OPEC is an economic organisation not a political one. Suppose they take an Anti US stand today and lose tommorow? The US would simply say the heck with them and start pumping their own instead. The reason why they don't now is becasue they prefer to use everybody elses oil and have theirs ready to be pumped once there is nothing left fity years from now. Stupid they are not.

One other point. There is a reason for OPEC and that reason is to ensure that idiots do not do what you have proposed may happen and thus destroy them all economiclly.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Ender,

I was once a big fan of Orson Scott Card, and "Ender's Game" was in my opinion, his best.

With regards to 'democracy' in Iraq, it is not possible to compare (as easily as Mr. Read and KK did) Germany and Japan to Iraq. Islam is far older and more entrenched than both of them put together. Besides, the US did put forth a plan to

Nazi Germany must be bulldozed and made into agricultural land and its people enslaved since of course Germans did not understand democracy.

, for it was when the Germans heard of this, they decided to fight to the last.

To say that Germany did not understand democracy? The Germans had a strong democratic process, and actually voted to give Hitler dictatorial powers. The same will happen in Iraq, should democracy reach there. The US (and UK) are telling the people of Iraq, "You will grant to you a 'democtatic' nation, but not an Islamic one". That will be the platform that will give rise to the next Islamic 'Hitler'. But, perhaps, that is the plan.

[KrustyKidd]

Dear Ender,

I was once a big fan of Orson Scott Card, and "Ender's Game" was in my opinion, his best.

With regards to 'democracy' in Iraq, it is not possible to compare (as easily as Mr. Read and KK did) Germany and Japan to Iraq. Islam is far older and more entrenched than both of them put together. Besides, the US did put forth a plan to

Nazi Germany must be bulldozed and made into agricultural land and its people enslaved since of course Germans did not understand democracy.

, for it was when the Germans heard of this, they decided to fight to the last.

To say that Germany did not understand democracy? The Germans had a strong democratic process, and actually voted to give Hitler dictatorial powers. The same will happen in Iraq, should democracy reach there. The US (and UK) are telling the people of Iraq, "You will grant to you a 'democtatic' nation, but not an Islamic one". That will be the platform that will give rise to the next Islamic 'Hitler'. But, perhaps, that is the plan.

Hi Lonius, I'm not sure how old Japan's culture was but am certain that it was more than a couple of centuries old and as foreign to democracy as Islam is. Hitler did not exactly get voted into power in a normal sense but rather forced his way in by using a democratic process against the existing government.

One last point in the form of an open question. With all this "Bringing Democracy to the People of Iraq" the US keeps touting, do you think for a minute they actually plan on not bringing True Democracy but rather a puppet regeime? Being unlike the forties when the world opinion was simply "thank God the Germans have been beaten" this recontruction is eyed suspiciously by every Government on earth. They have a lot of freedom to give in order to not look self serving.

[Craig Read]

There is no evidence that Muslims, Iraqi's, Iranians, Russians, Congoans, Brazilians or anyone else for that matter cannot build a democratic society if the institutions, capital, laws and processes are built soundly.

This is such mind numbingly dumb hubris.

What - Canadians and only Canadians understand REAL democracy ?

Hmm let me see. Canada was just ranked 25th in corruption in the world, it is a one party state, taxes have rise 1400 %, and judges by pass parliament, and politicians increase their pay and pensions and sleep with corporate donors.

Yep sounds like a well functioning democracy to me.

The idea that only 'Western' peoples understand democracy or will embrace it, is so flawed, racist, and impractical that I am surprised anyone who has read a jot of history can state it.

It takes YEARS to rebuild countries. The only successful quick reconstruction was East Timor, under the UNO, simply because only 750K people live there, in a small geographic area, with very little natural resources and divisiveness in the body politic.

A country as large, complicated, poor, mangled and forlorn as Iraq might take a generation to rebuild.

Same for Russia.

If I were you guys I would be more worried about Democracy in Canada than in Iraq.

[righturnonred]

This is very true. You should read some literature during the period after the end of WWII during the reconstruction of war torn Germany and Japan. It is utterly shocking to see the uncanny similarities between what comentators said about the future of reconstuction is those countries as compared to the same kind of negative speculation we are hearing today. Excluding references to Germany specifically, you could simply mistake what was written in the late 1940's for modern day columns describing the failing reconstruction efforts in Iraq. There is no doubt that success in Iraq will eventually be achived but it will take time. Bush had no qualms when he said we're in it for the long haul and that the path would not be easy.

[Craig Read]

RonR, I am glad you are on this forum. Some common sense. According to the UNO, assorted Liberals and the wonderful CBC the Iraqi people must immediately take over the administration of Iraq [to make France happy, god knows that is a priority], must take command of all decisions on oil and resources [to keep those democratic Russians happy], and one supposes pay immediately their odious debts [to keep both France and Russian happy and on side since they lent money to a fascist regime to make profit].

No example exists historically of a broken country leaping into a market-orthodox liberal regime within 6 months, managed by the local population who after 50 years of fascist rule, have no real experience with such institutions and processes.

The Lie-berals and CBC lovers expect that all Iraqi's must now have BelAir mansions, Manuel tending to the pool, and Barbie jetting off to Harvard to start University. Somehow magically a shattered country is rebuilt 6 months after a war and all is good.

How about the utter negativity of the press ? I have met some Iraqi's doing business in Baghdad and not one had a bad thing to say about the Americans and all said things are much better and the country is going the right way.

The main thing to do now, is to keep on message, keep on track, and to kill Hussein to stop these recent attacks. After his demise security will become less of an issue.

[righturnonred]

I remember in college, my international business professor once told the class that "bringing democracy to a islamic nation has never succeeded", to which I responded, "Where has it ever been tried". He paused and thought hard for moment. The only example he could come up with was...the Shaw of Iran? What?

Those kinds of exchanges were typical. Needless to say he didn't like me very much and you can bet my grade suffered because of it. The bastard gave me a B-, how thoughtful of him.