French only forum spell fate of university English program

[Leafless]

"The Universite du Quebec en Outaouais public consultation on its plan to phase out English-language business programs is seriously flawed because it is in French only, according to professors who teach the courses."

----------------------------------------------

Talking about the spirit of co-operation relating to the Chinese killer satellite issue.

Here is one relating to the spirit of linguistic co-operation by allowing Quebec to continually renew (every five years) and override Canada's constitution with the 'notwithstanding clause' relating to Quebec's language policy along with giving the French language 'federal official language status'.

I mean, who wants that dumb HICK commercial English language in Quebec??

The nerve.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/s...a0e36b3&k=51665

[tml12]

"The Universite du Quebec en Outaouais public consultation on its plan to phase out English-language business programs is seriously flawed because it is in French only, according to professors who teach the courses."

----------------------------------------------

Talking about the spirit of co-operation relating to the Chinese killer satellite issue.

Here is one relating to the spirit of linguistic co-operation by allowing Quebec to continually renew (every five years) and override Canada's constitution with the 'notwithstanding clause' relating to Quebec's language policy along with giving the French language 'federal official language status'.

I mean, who wants that dumb HICK commercial English language in Quebec??

The nerve.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/s...a0e36b3&k=51665

The reality is that Canada will always be uncomfortable as a federation because it has two founding nations with two very different colonial histories. Canada nationally does not have powerful, unifying national myths that unite it as a country (unlike the U.S. for example). As such, you can travel to places like Jonquiere and Medicine Hat and still technically be in the same country but be dealing with people that have very little in common and define themselves in vastly different manners.

In terms of this situation, this just simply reflects the reality of Canada. Is it good? No. But it is the way it is in this country.

[Leafless]

The reality is that Canada will always be uncomfortable as a federation because it has two founding nations with two very different colonial histories. Canada nationally does not have powerful, unifying national myths that unite it as a country (unlike the U.S. for example). As such, you can travel to places like Jonquiere and Medicine Hat and still technically be in the same country but be dealing with people that have very little in common and define themselves in vastly different manners.

In terms of this situation, this just simply reflects the reality of Canada. Is it good? No. But it is the way it is in this country.

As a matter of fact David Warren has an interesting editorial in the Ottawa Citizen, Sat. Jan.20/2007, titled "Time to take sides in today's culture wars".

In this editorial he describes Canada's cultural past and present, and says: " Which does not mean there are not two solitudes. "A man cannot serve two masters" according to a very old saying and when push comes to shove we tend to take sides. And that is what the culture wars have been about, in Canada and throughout the West; forcing us to take sides, for the purpose of annihilating one culture.

As ever it is the minority that feels itself pushed towards extinction. Yet the odd thing is, there are still millions of them -the BIGGEST of all contemporary factions."

It is obvious Quebec is taking advantage of Canada's political generosity and is in direct competition against the English language.

Very unsportsmanlike, even if I say so myself.

[tml12]

The reality is that Canada will always be uncomfortable as a federation because it has two founding nations with two very different colonial histories. Canada nationally does not have powerful, unifying national myths that unite it as a country (unlike the U.S. for example). As such, you can travel to places like Jonquiere and Medicine Hat and still technically be in the same country but be dealing with people that have very little in common and define themselves in vastly different manners.

In terms of this situation, this just simply reflects the reality of Canada. Is it good? No. But it is the way it is in this country.

As a matter of fact David Warren has an interesting editorial in the Ottawa Citizen, Sat. Jan.20/2007, titled "Time to take sides in today's culture wars".

In this editorial he describes Canada's cultural past and present, and says: " Which does not mean there are not two solitudes. "A man cannot serve two masters" according to a very old saying and when push comes to shove we tend to take sides. And that is what the culture wars have been about, in Canada and throughout the West; forcing us to take sides, for the purpose of annihilating one culture.

As ever it is the minority that feels itself pushed towards extinction. Yet the odd thing is, there are still millions of them -the BIGGEST of all contemporary factions."

It is obvious Quebec is taking advantage of Canada's political generosity and is in direct competition against the English language.

Very unsportsmanlike, even if I say so myself.

Leafless,

Yes you may say so. Many of the French believe they have a vastly superior culture and remember the time when their language was the language of culture and world civilization.

The 20th century saw the almost complete erosion of French influence in world affairs. The French have never been able to truly accept that. I have travelled often in Europe and only in France was the language of English spoken very low. Culturally, France still has a lot to offer and I would recommend people travel there. Yet, many in France still believe France is a major world power, which it is not.

Winning federally in Quebec means appealing to the soft nationalist vote. Ultimately, the soft nationalists are provincial and either believe in Quebec more than Canada or believe in some sort of federalism where Quebec is treated in a different fashion than the other provinces. If you can make these individuals believe in a national Canadian dream, you will solve the dilemma of Canada. Until then, every prime minister will be faced with having to sell themselves in Quebec while keeping the West happy.

[Leafless]

Many of the French believe they have a vastly superior culture and remember the time when their language was the language of culture and world civilization.

The 20th century saw the almost complete erosion of French influence in world affairs. The French have never been able to truly accept that.

Winning federally in Quebec means appealing to the soft nationalist vote. Ultimately, the soft nationalists are provincial and either believe in Quebec more than Canada or believe in some sort of federalism where Quebec is treated in a different fashion than the other provinces. If you can make these individuals believe in a national Canadian dream, you will solve the dilemma of Canada. Until then, every prime minister will be faced with having to sell themselves in Quebec while keeping the West happy.

Playing the language game for sentimental reasons with the country at stake, makes as much sense as religion does to an atheist.

There is more to it then that and sooner or later some PM will have to bite the bullet and call a spade a spade and publicly acknowledge Canada can do no more for Quebec, with the main cause being gross discrimination against the rest of the country with national political parties all participating in what could be seen or described as a fraudulent abuse of public funds to meet Quebec's unjustifiable demands.

Actually Canada should be the last place for the French to flex their political muscles as in the LEGAL sense outside of the 'uncontested founding nation title', Quebec has no legal rights to propagate their non- commercial minority language outside of their province or no legal right to Canada outside of it being a province within Canada.

This is a sad state of affairs when Canadian citizens have been totally left out in the decision concerning their own constitution, to allow this nonsensical case of linguistic dizziness to perpetually continue with the makings of some drunken poker game.

[tml12]

Leafless,

Quebec does make unjustifiable demands. All of what you say is correct but neither one of us would have to deal with the consequences of doing what you prescribe.

Examine our current prime minister. Perhaps no one was more critical of Quebec favouratism than he was a few years ago. Then he became prime minister and now he is consistently courting Quebec with his promise to fix the fiscal imbalance. Make no mistake...tons of love and taxpayer money will be flowing into Quebec before the next election because you can't have a majority government without Quebec.

Perhaps as a majority PM Harper would be tougher with Quebec but I do not know. Successful PMs have to play hot and heavy with Quebec so as to also court favouratism with Ontario. Hence, "the west wants in" and western alienation have become documented Canadian poltitical science terms.

This is the future Leafless...it will only be different when a future PM stands up to Quebec, thus risking the end of a united Canada.

[geoffrey]

Perhaps as a majority PM Harper would be tougher with Quebec but I do not know. Successful PMs have to play hot and heavy with Quebec so as to also court favouratism with Ontario. Hence, "the west wants in" and western alienation have become documented Canadian poltitical science terms.

So it's essientially Quebec or Ontario... the West and the Maritimes are condemned to permenant irrelevance?

I tend to agree.

Hence why we need a provincially balanced elected Senate... that'd balance things out in a hurry.

[tml12]

Perhaps as a majority PM Harper would be tougher with Quebec but I do not know. Successful PMs have to play hot and heavy with Quebec so as to also court favouratism with Ontario. Hence, "the west wants in" and western alienation have become documented Canadian poltitical science terms.

So it's essientially Quebec or Ontario... the West and the Maritimes are condemned to permenant irrelevance?

I tend to agree.

Hence why we need a provincially balanced elected Senate... that'd balance things out in a hurry.

I completely agree. I know you are a student in Calgary Geoffrey so I'd like to know how the idea is flying with students out there. Just being a Conservative student in Montreal puts me in the minority...I think almost every political science prof I had has been staunch Liberal. They usually rant about how Senate reform is destroying the country (Ted Morton is their favourite enemy). Their criticisms usually make little sense.

Harper is a policy wonk...I think he realizes Senate reform is one of the best ways to save the country and federalism. However, he needs a majority before he can implement much of what he wants. A Dion government would probably not be in favour of Senate or much government reform. I asked some people I know that work for the Liberals recently whether Dion would push government reform and they told me he has "unspecified plans."

[Leafless]

This is the future Leafless...it will only be different when a future PM stands up to Quebec, thus risking the end of a united Canada.

Canada a united country!

In reality Canada are two primary solitudes divorced, with Canadians forced to pay alimony to a province which is the primary cause of fragmented Canadian nationalism.

But back to the topic and the question to be asked is how can a minority French residential language continue to have such disdain for the majority commercial language of this country while being fed federally and without signing our constitution?

This is a black mark concerning the administration of this country and a direct insult against the English speakers of this country.

[tml12]

This is the future Leafless...it will only be different when a future PM stands up to Quebec, thus risking the end of a united Canada.

Canada a united country!

In reality Canada are two primary solitudes divorced, with Canadians forced to pay alimony to a province which is the primary cause of fragmented Canadian nationalism.

But back to the topic and the question to be asked is how can a minority French residential language continue to have such disdain for the majority commercial language of this country while being fed federally and without signing our constitution?

This is a black mark concerning the administration of this country and a direct insult against the English speakers of this country.

Leafless...again, I agree. But you do understand no Canadian PM is going to challenge this because they do not want to be PM during the break-up of this country, right? What do you prescribe?

[Leafless]

This is the future Leafless...it will only be different when a future PM stands up to Quebec, thus risking the end of a united Canada.

Canada a united country!

In reality Canada are two primary solitudes divorced, with Canadians forced to pay alimony to a province which is the primary cause of fragmented Canadian nationalism.

But back to the topic and the question to be asked is how can a minority French residential language continue to have such disdain for the majority commercial language of this country while being fed federally and without signing our constitution?

This is a black mark concerning the administration of this country and a direct insult against the English speakers of this country.

Leafless...again, I agree. But you do understand no Canadian PM is going to challenge this because they do not want to be PM during the break-up of this country, right? What do you prescribe?

Of course I understand and that is why this I initiated this topic.

I don't write the news and for this item to be newsworthy, obviously it is problematic in the minds of many.

On a provincial level premiers can address this problem and can alleviate it by applying the same linguistic logic as Quebec applies to English.

Up to now the problem is increasingly worsening as is evident by this article and many just like it.

More should be done by the English sector of society, who at present are patiently waiting for our political leaders to constitutionally alleviate the problem, something that obviously won't happen to quickly without English intervention in the way of demanding proper political representation from our national federal parties.

If Canadian national federal politicians are content with being strong armed to the level of Quebec political lackeys, then the country for all practical purposes is not Canada, it is the country of Quebec.

[Slavik44]

You know Quebec kinda reminds me of the universally known stock charachter, you know the drunk guy at the bar who is always reminising about his glory days as a high school quater back. A quick read through almost any european history book will often find the same story line, the french trying to regain something they lost. To the point where you have to stop and ask if they ever actually had it to begin with, or if they have simply been perpetully stuck playing second fiddle.

I know senate reform was mentioned in this thread, but it is also important to remember that senate reform would drastically undercut the power of all provinces east of ontario in the senate. It is far from an easy task to convince those in power that they actually should do the fair thing and relinquish this power. I have been asking my mom for a ferrari for a couple years now, and as it stands I got a better chance of getting a ferrari then an elected and equal senate, effective would be asking for far to much.

The problem is all to often people try and paint Canada as a marriage between French and English, A marriage between the French Colonies and the British Colonies. But if this was a marriage we would have beend divorced long ago. Instead we have reached a disfunctional compromise, no one is really happy, but we are counselled by the fact that everyone else is un-happy just like us. And so we trudge along through time failing to reach our full potential because we are so quick to define what are interests are and upoun recognizing the inability of achieving those interests we are satisfied by resorting to sabotage, disunity, and protest of which no one, from no region is fully immune.

[Leafless]

The problem is all to often people try and paint Canada as a marriage between French and English, A marriage between the French Colonies and the British Colonies.

Is was initially a confederation of colonies, not a marriage, something Quebec welcomed with open arms and initially agreed to. But Quebec is continually changing its mind regarding the need to establish its own country since it cannot dominate Canada to conform to Quebec ideologies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Confederation

[tml12]

The problem is all to often people try and paint Canada as a marriage between French and English, A marriage between the French Colonies and the British Colonies.

Is was initially a confederation of colonies, not a marriage, something Quebec welcomed with open arms and initially agreed to. But Quebec is continually changing its mind regarding the need to establish its own country since it cannot dominate Canada to conform to Quebec ideologies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Confederation

Indeed, Leafless, you are correct that we need to breathe new life into Canadian federalism. I think we need to look south to the U.S. and see how they dealt with the issues of federalism. Indeed, the U.S. had Spanish (now Mexican) territories in the southwest, French areas of Louisiana, and British areas at the time of the American confederation. In addition, the U.S. had slave states to deal with. American federalism was difficult, to say the least. It took the publication of the Federalist Papers and the Civil War to cement American unity. Today, however, Americans are for the most part united and accept the national myths of freedom, etc. that unite their country.

Canadians, however, have no great unifying national myth and this is the source for discontent in the Canadian federation. If Canadians elect the Liberals, it will continue this troubling status quo. If Canadians elect the Conservatives, however, I think we will see a stronger federation. It is possible to unite people of different backgrounds (i.e. English and French) but this has to be done at a young age. If schoolchildren in Jonquiere and schoolchildren in Calgary are not being taught the same history about the same glorious nation that is Canada, this country will not be strong.

[Leafless]

If schoolchildren in Jonquiere and schoolchildren in Calgary are not being taught the same history about the same glorious nation that is Canada, this country will not be strong.

This will be the perpetual problem due to the fact Quebec cannot let go of the past and worst of all, refuses to linguistically assimilate with the rest of the country.

I find it incomprehensible that Quebec initially would seek partnership as a province in confederation, knowing all along it had no intention of disabling its past history, relating to Canadian unity.

[geoffrey]

I completely agree. I know you are a student in Calgary Geoffrey so I'd like to know how the idea is flying with students out there. Just being a Conservative student in Montreal puts me in the minority...I think almost every political science prof I had has been staunch Liberal. They usually rant about how Senate reform is destroying the country (Ted Morton is their favourite enemy). Their criticisms usually make little sense.

Unfortunately most Calgary students lean more towards the Liberal side of the room, which is fine, they have lots of time to grow up . That being said, the conservatives that are around (far more than any other university I'm sure) are more of the social conservative bible thumpers... more interesting in banning gays than fixing the system.

I don't really spend much time with the political science crowd so I really don't know what happens there. I've taken a few classes, but most have been on a more international focus. The one Canadian politics class I had was taught by a very strong NDP supporter, who claimed the market caused all the trouble in Canada. That was such a waste of time it took me over a year before I took another poli sci class, but stayed well away from Canadian issues. She also would claim that the provinces are too strong. Ugh.

The Calgary school is around, and I've taken economics classes with a couple of those profs... they are very conservative, very pro market. We watched movies on Newfoundland and BC fishermen and their arrogrance towards the EI system for two weeks straight in one of my classes. Pretty good stuff there.

[tml12]

I completely agree. I know you are a student in Calgary Geoffrey so I'd like to know how the idea is flying with students out there. Just being a Conservative student in Montreal puts me in the minority...I think almost every political science prof I had has been staunch Liberal. They usually rant about how Senate reform is destroying the country (Ted Morton is their favourite enemy). Their criticisms usually make little sense.

Unfortunately most Calgary students lean more towards the Liberal side of the room, which is fine, they have lots of time to grow up . That being said, the conservatives that are around (far more than any other university I'm sure) are more of the social conservative bible thumpers... more interesting in banning gays than fixing the system.

I don't really spend much time with the political science crowd so I really don't know what happens there. I've taken a few classes, but most have been on a more international focus. The one Canadian politics class I had was taught by a very strong NDP supporter, who claimed the market caused all the trouble in Canada. That was such a waste of time it took me over a year before I took another poli sci class, but stayed well away from Canadian issues. She also would claim that the provinces are too strong. Ugh.

The Calgary school is around, and I've taken economics classes with a couple of those profs... they are very conservative, very pro market. We watched movies on Newfoundland and BC fishermen and their arrogrance towards the EI system for two weeks straight in one of my classes. Pretty good stuff there.

I have read a lot about The Calgary School (led by Tom Flanagan?) and agree with a great deal of their work. We have a number of profs here who have spent a bit of time over with you guys in Calgary...I am thinking about perhaps doing grad school out there but we'll see (like I said, I have never been there...Calgary students can't be more liberal than students here).

[bilanglomo]

"The Universite du Quebec en Outaouais public consultation on its plan to phase out English-language business programs is seriously flawed because it is in French only, according to professors who teach the courses."

----------------------------------------------

Talking about the spirit of co-operation relating to the Chinese killer satellite issue.

Here is one relating to the spirit of linguistic co-operation by allowing Quebec to continually renew (every five years) and override Canada's constitution with the 'notwithstanding clause' relating to Quebec's language policy along with giving the French language 'federal official language status'.

I mean, who wants that dumb HICK commercial English language in Quebec??

The nerve.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/s...a0e36b3&k=51665

Hi - I've been reading with great interest and am appropriately dismayed. I'm an anglophone from ON, married to a Québecois, and we moved to his rural hometown in the Beauce region of Quebec - one of Canada's Cultural Capitals no less, in 2003.

I thought it was me - I thought I was being paranoid and defensive - I thought I was over-reacting - I thought my rights as a Canadian were protected ... wrong ... it's not the people on the street - I've been visiting here for many many years and I couldn't have been treated better - when I was visiting ... you can visit here, you can invest here, you can spend your money here - but do not think of staying here - the systemic discrimination at the provincial government level is blatant - is encouraged - and is not monitored ... I had to beg for access to a french language program and finally found my own - 450 employment applications later and still no interview even though both the federal and provincial governments are funding english language training - and there are many bilingual positions available - what they don't tell you - and I imagine they don't tell their anglophone business partners - is that here - bilingual means a francophone who speaks english and NEVER the reverse - despite qualifications ... and there is no recourse - employment programs are routinely denied - I've been told many times that no one will hire me with my accent - and on it goes - they don't even hide it - it's a given - it wouldn't happen in Ontario - and I've experienced both sides - I actually met Mr. Harper during his visit here for Saint Jean Baptise - I called to him from the crowd - in english - saying I was from London On, and he immediately asked me - WHAT are you doing HERE ? ... I was still in my proud to be bilingual mode and loving all things french and I explained that to him but I didn't understand his total shock that I was actually here by choice ... I believe I now understand what Mr. Harper already knows - anglophones are NOT WELCOME here - and there certainly is 'linguistic cleansing' and there is no representation for anglophones either at the provincial level or the federal level ... why can't the federal government see that the threat of seperation is just that - a threat - most people here do not want to seperate and those that do - well they can - all parties at the provincial level must keep the threat alive to hold on to the leverage it provides ... I actually had a business prof (french) who would routinely use english terms in his lectures and he would immediately apologise for doing so ... over and over and over until finally I spoke up and said - you know it's not as if you're cursing ... and then all of my classmates tottered off to their english as a second language class ... learn it ... but don't you dare use it ... the experiences I have had here would be funny and very amusing were the results not so devastating to me on a personal level. But it's not the guy on the street - it's the government - it's one thing to speak about cultural pride - systemic exclusion of fellow Canadians is quite another ... ... economical development my a** ... one last little story to illustrate my reality - I was checking out the local CLD ... economic development group - and I got there from a federal website sponsoring various Cultural Capitals ... and I noticed that this local website which is concerned with economical development initiatives was available in french of course, and in spanish - no english ... so with nothng else to do - I contacted them and offered to provide the english translation, I went into my heartfelt speel about wanting desperately to integrate here in my new community and how I felt this was a way I could contribute ... blah blah blah ... but I was sincere - the answer came back from the Director - he said basically - it's not in english because by law we don't have to put it in english - this is Quebec - and he said it's available in spanish because we do business with Bolivia (?) ... so asked about accomodating english speaking business partners or tourists who might be checking out the area from say maybe - the rest of Canada or the US ... to which he replied his budget wouldn't support the translation costs - so I offered to do it for free - and I finally got the cold hard - there are no plans to translate the site at this time ... and so it goes ... but I had no idea ... I thought this picture-perfect little town would welcome me as a resident as they had when I merely visisted ... whole different ball game ... and everyone here knows it - and now I am making sure that all of my buddies on the outside are aware of it too ... forwarned is forarmed ...

[geoffrey]

Paragraphs?

[ft.niagara]

Hi - I've been reading with great interest and am appropriately dismayed. I'm an anglophone from ON, married to a Québecois, and we moved to his rural hometown in the Beauce region of Quebec - one of Canada's Cultural Capitals no less, in 2003.

I am curious, what does your wife say about your situation. What do your inlaws say. Where do you work, or do you. Does she work.

It seems that Quebec does not like immigration, even though you are technically not an immigrant. They seem to have found a simple way around discrimination prohabitions. Just do it.

I was talking with a northerner who lived in North Carolina for eight years. He said that the southerners would prefer not doing business with northerners, but there were so many northerners living in North Carolina, that it really did not matter. That is probably what will have to happen to Quebec. The anglophones will have to move there enmass, and bring the jobs with them for the anglophones.

[Leafless]

The anglophones will have to move there enmass, and bring the jobs with them for the anglophones.

Quebec is not North Carolina.

[tml12]

Hi - I've been reading with great interest and am appropriately dismayed. I'm an anglophone from ON, married to a Québecois, and we moved to his rural hometown in the Beauce region of Quebec - one of Canada's Cultural Capitals no less, in 2003.

I am curious, what does your wife say about your situation. What do your inlaws say. Where do you work, or do you. Does she work.

It seems that Quebec does not like immigration, even though you are technically not an immigrant. They seem to have found a simple way around discrimination prohabitions. Just do it.

I was talking with a northerner who lived in North Carolina for eight years. He said that the southerners would prefer not doing business with northerners, but there were so many northerners living in North Carolina, that it really did not matter. That is probably what will have to happen to Quebec. The anglophones will have to move there enmass, and bring the jobs with them for the anglophones.

Anglophones are leaving Quebec every year.