Poverty in Canada - Damn Statistics

[Keepitsimple]

The Toronto Star and their OCAP compatriots seem to do more harm than good for people who are truly in need. Their constant exaggerations only serve to turn people off. Yes, we have an issue and we will always have an issue with people who are less fortunate than others - but let's all deal with the facts so we can collectively provide the needy with a hand-up and for those who truly cannot fend for themselves - a hand-out. As an example, the Star claims that 1 of every 6 people live in Poverty. Their source, as usual, is a selective use of Stats Canada. In fact, if we use the Stats Can LICO (dubious, at best) and use the Before Tax income, you indeed come to somewhere in the area of 1 in 6.

Link: http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil41a.htm

But now let's look at After Tax Income and you'll find that the number is actually 1 in 9. I think we could all agree that for an honest measurement of financial ability, After Tax is a better choice that Before Tax.

Link: http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil19a.htm

This is really only one example of the selective use of statistics. Another major area of misinformation is the use of "young workers" in any Poverty measurement. I'm not sure what age should be the starting point but surely, a significant number of workers that are age 18-21 are just starting out in the workplace and it will take some time for their earning power to gain traction. Most of these are not "poor" - they are, like all of us at one time. simply starting out in life and paying their dues.

Seniors (over 65) are also a "special" category. Thier requirements are different - and quite reduced. My own mother is beneath the LICO, yet she does very well and would never even consider her situation to be challenging.

So what is the right number - 1 in 10? 1 in 12? I don't think it matters that much - what matters is that we recognize that there are real people behind the numbers so let's not turn people off by blowing things out of proportion.

[White Doors]

Good point. I find that they also seem to assume it's the same people from year to year who are 'poor'. I was in the 'poor' bracket for probably 5 years after I graduated. I didn't mind and I'm not anymore.

I'm sure that the majority of the 'poor' are people who were like me.

[margrace]

Before this discussion goes on I would like to hear some definition of what poverty is? One thing very definite is that it does depend on where you live.

How much money does one need to live? For instance someone living back in the bush with no hydro, no running water and prefering it that way cannot be considered living in poverty can they. What is the definition of poverty.

[Canuck E Stan]

Poverty Today-Toronto Star

But the one in six Canadians trapped in poverty are hidden in plain sight.

Reliance on the minimum wage is higher in Canada, at 4.3 per cent of the workforce, than in the United States (1.4 per cent), but much lower than in France (15.6 per cent.).

Peggy Nash, the NDP MP for Parkdale-High Park, hastens to say her private member's bill to raise the minimum wage to $10 for workers in banking, transportation, telecommunications and other sectors covered by federal labour law is no panacea.

"Poverty is fear, malnutrition, chronic bad health, loneliness, illiteracy and inadequate job skills and no time or money to upgrade them," Nash says.

Minimum wage increase for 4.3% of the workforce will do nothing for fear, malnutrition, chronic bad health, loneliness, illiteracy and inadequate job skills.

Time would be better spend finding solutions to these problems than forcing a minimum wage on employers that involve 4.3% of the work force.

[mikedavid00]

The Toronto Star and their OCAP compatriots seem to do more harm than good for people who are truly in need. Their constant exaggerations only serve to turn people off.

While I agree and hate the Toronto Star with a passion.. (yes I saw that front page yesterday while shopping).

It is with regret that I have to back that report and support it.

But poverty is different to everyone. To me, if you are working a $45,000 a year job, live in a 1200sq ft semi, and do not have enough money to fix a toilet problem (true story) becuase your so up to your gills in taxes, then yes, I do believe that person is living in poverty. Or working poor.

If you have $400-$800 a month to spend for yourself each month, then I consider that to be poor.

Someone well off has $4000-$8000 a month to spend and these people claim they have trouble getting by.

That's what I consider poor.

I think Canadians are really poorer than we realize. We don't understand just how shotty our purchasing power is.

Ie: in the US you can work a clerical job paying $40,000 a year with no education required, buy your own house, and lease a new BMW. All on a single income.

In Canada, this is just not possible.

[Canuck E Stan]

But poverty is different to everyone. To me, if you are working a $45,000 a year job, live in a 1200sq ft semi, and do not have enough money to fix a toilet problem (true story) becuase your so up to your gills in taxes, then yes, I do believe that person is living in poverty. Or working poor.

I think Canadians are really poorer than we realize. We don't understand just how shotty our purchasing power is.

In Canada, this is just not possible.

mikedavid00,

Taxes are the cause of not fixing your toilet? You're full of shit on that one, my friend.

What you're not saying here is that personal debt load(using the credit card too much) has caused you to live beyond your means, not taxes.

Shotty purchasing power? More like setting a priority of what you should be buying and what you really need. Self control is the answer.

One thing immigrants can teach you is how to manage your money, they know the priorities for income they earn. You should learn from this.

Ie: in the US you can work a clerical job paying $40,000 a year with no education required, buy your own house, and lease a new BMW. All on a single income.

And still not have enough to fix the toilet.

You, are not poor.......not even close.

[geoffrey]

Before this discussion goes on I would like to hear some definition of what poverty is? One thing very definite is that it does depend on where you live.

How much money does one need to live? For instance someone living back in the bush with no hydro, no running water and prefering it that way cannot be considered living in poverty can they. What is the definition of poverty.

Very good questions margrace. I think the social situation of the country also determines that. I'd suggest that no one in Canada is poor, in comparison to say someone living in Botswana.

--

Back to mike. I really disagree with your $40k/year is poor concept. It's not living great, but you can afford shelter, a decent car and food on that. If your talking about a family of 8 or something, then ok, you've got a point. But if we're talking single people, no way.

[madmax]

Back to mike. I really disagree with your $40k/year is poor concept. It's not living great, but you can afford shelter, a decent car and food on that. If your talking about a family of 8 or something, then ok, you've got a point. But if we're talking single people, no way.

40,000K/year. I was just going to get my violin out. Guess, I better put it back in the case.

[mikedavid00]

mikedavid00,

Taxes are the cause of not fixing your toilet? You're full of shit on that one, my friend.

That was not my story, just someone who works with my fiance. She has 2 kids, single mom, and lives paycheck to paycheck. That's life of far too many Canadians. I feel bad for her.

What you're not saying here is that personal debt load(using the credit card too much) has caused you to live beyond your means, not taxes.

Again it's not me. Besides, you can't expect everyone to be perfect and frugal with their money. People should spend money on things that make them happy. We can't all be eating Kraft Dinner each night in order to manager out money.

Your argument falls apart by blaming her spending habits.

Shotty purchasing power? More like setting a priority of what you should be buying and what you really need. Self control is the answer.

Self-hating ideoligy.

She had her car break down..used car, then had to fix it or something, then had to pay her mortgage and feed her kids.. then her toilet broke and she couldn't afford to fix it so had to use the downstairs washroom.

Her house costs in the mid $280k range due to immigration. In the US, her little semi would probably cost her.. i don't know.. $600 a month in mortage payments?

One thing immigrants can teach you is how to manage your money, they know the priorities for income they earn. You should learn from this.

Again, the story was not about me. I chose the route of fixing my own toilet if it breaks. I'm a guy who thinks he can fix things.

And immigrants file bankrupsty and go in debt ALL the time. Don't kid yourself. Open an ethnic newspaper and you will see two things: Ads for immigration consultants, and ads for bankruptsy.

And yes, Immigrants do have their priority straight - send money back hom to their country.

[Canuck E Stan]

Again it's not me. Besides, you can't expect everyone to be perfect and frugal with their money. People should spend money on things that make them happy. We can't all be eating Kraft Dinner each night in order to manager out money.

Your argument falls apart by blaming her spending habits.

People should spend money on things that make them happy.

That's the "I want it all, I deserve it all" attitude, that's putting people behind the debt-ball.

If you choice to spent big to make yourself "happy", and are unprepared to manage your finances, then be prepared to eat Kraft dinner for the rest of your life.

Yes, I expect people to be frugal with their money......especially if they don't have any.

Sometimes NOW is too soon to spend to be "happy".

Later might work better.

These people aren't society's poor, they're people caught up in the me,now addiction.

I bet you could go into the home of any of these people you call poor, and come up with a dozen ways they could save money based on the lifestyle they are trying to lead.

[mikedavid00]

That's the "I want it all, I deserve it all" attitude, that's putting people behind the debt-ball.

I meant that in the context that she 'shouldn't have to' not be able to spend on things she likes. I mean small things like resturaunts and movies.

I don't feel that someone with a degree and many years of work experience should be living hand to mouth like this and in poverty. Well.. i consider it poverty. I've been into countless houses where people had no furniture, or lived like students.

If you choice to spent big to make yourself "happy", and are unprepared to manage your finances, then be prepared to eat Kraft dinner for the rest of your life.

Canada consumes more Kraft Dinner than anyone where else per capita in the world. Must meen something eh?

Yes, I expect people to be frugal with their money......especially if they don't have any.

I take a more idealistic approach to this. While I agree with this, I feel it's over all wrong.

I think us as a country is keeping her poor. I don't feel it's her spending habbits, education, job, or anythign else that we are taking her money, inflating her housing costs, and putting her hard earned money in other peoples pockets.

These people aren't society's poor, they're people caught up in the me,now addiction.

I dont think she's done anything wrong.. she just a victim of our country IMO.

I bet you could go into the home of any of these people you call poor, and come up with a dozen ways they could save money based on the lifestyle they are trying to lead.

I think that's the wrong mindset to take on this issue. Your blaming the induvidual rather than the people who take her money away from her.

I'm taking a more idealistic stance on this.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Canuck E Stan,

QUOTE

I bet you could go into the home of any of these people you call poor, and come up with a dozen ways they could save money based on the lifestyle they are trying to lead.

I think that's the wrong mindset to take on this issue. Your blaming the induvidual rather than the people who take her money away from her.

I wouldn't waste time responding to this poster, who is either full of shit or trolling. You are perfectly correct, it is about the choices one makes. I was once 'poor', due to my own decisions. There were times I ate nothing but rice for a couple of days before payday, and sometimes even soya sauce was a 'luxury' I couldn't afford. However, my first stop after payday was always the beer store. Looking back, who was to blame?

[margrace]

If we all went back to living simply what would it do to the job situation. Poor people see the same advertizements as richer working people. The emphasis in Ontario on being in the white collar status and looking down on blue collar training was very invasive. It started back in the early 60's and continues to this day.

My grandfather was a smart man who could have, in this day, been quite well off. He was born in 1880's so he did not have the opportunities that young people have today. He was well read and had one of the few home libraries in a community where the more well to do looked down on readers as lazy. That is another pervasive ideology still very strong in the older generation. He loved gardening and in his later years was able to work as a gardner.

Food bank volunteers, at least in ours, will cut off use after four uses in one year. After that the person must prove to us that they cannot buy their food. In a smaller area this is possible, I don't know about other larger urbanite areas. We make every effort to help these people. One lady will supply diapers for instance to mothers with new babies and teach them how to use them.

We fill our dumps with throw away stuff. It was amazing to go into our dump after the New year and see the horrendous pile of tv's and other electrical things left there. Our dump is making every effort to see that this stuff is recycled in some way. Just the thought of what is in the dump is discouraging. We now have an area where stuff is put that can be reused.

I know someone, in her so called golden years, who for the first time in her life got a new chesterfield, the old one literally fell to pieces. It had been bought second hand years ago.If you suggested that this person was one of the poor she would have laughted at you. There was always enough to eat and a roof over her head. So what is poor. In my estimation of our greedy selfcentred population poor is not having the newest electica gadget, the newest car, the newest kitchen etc.

[scribblet]

The Toronto Star has been running articles on poverty, this article on the poverty scam is worth a read. Like the Kyoto issue, it is a political tool where statistics are used to put forward a socialist agenda.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.h...b9-01ebd223bb9a

The Toronto Star's poverty scam

National Post Published: Monday, January 15, 2007

On Saturday, the Toronto Star devoted the whole of its front page to "A State of Constant Dread: Poverty Today," a breathless piece of advocacy that ranks as one of the sloppiest pieces of Canadian journalism we've ever seen. The newspaper's evident goal is to promote a "national strategy" for combating poverty. But if an argument for such a campaign can be cobbled together only by nakedly misrepresenting the available data, as the Star has done, it doesn't say much for the cause. Whatever one's view of poverty in Canada, the Star's journalistic methods are an insult to its readers.

The central theme of "Constant dread" is that Canada is suffering a poverty epidemic. According to author David Olive, "one in six Canadians [is] trapped in poverty." Later, he tells us there are "five million Canadians living in poverty, more than one million of them children." Then he serves up the same statistic in a third form, lamenting the "15.5% of us mired in poverty." Having thus established the extraordinary prevalence of poverty in Canada, Mr. Olive proceeds with a stream of leftwing policy recommendations.

But astute Star readers might have noticed something odd: The statistic at the heart of the article, without which the whole argument falls apart -- the claim that 15.5% of Canadians are "mired in poverty" -- is never sourced. Why?

-snip-

nd what should Ottawa do to redress this imaginary poverty crisis? Why, implement the same laundry list of discredited left-wing policies the Star has been flogging for years, naturally -- including an increased minimum wage, universal day care and expanded welfare programs.

[margrace]

No we need to start at the other end. Stop promoting consumerism.

[mikedavid00]

In my estimation of our greedy selfcentred population poor is not having the newest electica gadget, the newest car, the newest kitchen etc.

It's these things that help our economy and create jobs (directly or indirectly).

The argument of not spending is self defeating because if we were all cheap and didn't spend, there would be no economy and we'd be third world.

[mikedavid00]

I wouldn't waste time responding to this poster, who is either full of shit or trolling. You are perfectly correct, it is about the choices one makes. I was once 'poor', due to my own decisions. There were times I ate nothing but rice for a couple of days before payday, and sometimes even soya sauce was a 'luxury' I couldn't afford. However, my first stop after payday was always the beer store. Looking back, who was to blame?

Yes. And someone working a lofty job in San Paulo Brazil will say the same thing. People always credit their sucsessus to their own hard work.

The country you live in determines whether your hard work pays off.

For instance, if you are from Montreal, have never worked a day in your life, and come to Toronto, you will get hired for the simple fact you are billingual. It's that simple. You will start at $37k.

These people did not have to work hard, the *country* provided a climate for her to surpass all the others who have worked their whole lives and still aren't making that money.

One didin't have to work hard to get it, the other did.

IMO, the whole point of a 'country' is to have the abliltiy to set a climate where people can get good and decent life with little effort or work (ie: USA). Those who take that extra strep, spend thousands on schooling, and have many years experience in a skilled field (myself and a portion of the population), should be 'entitled' to a better living.

Canada's crisis is the latter scenario has become a pre-requisite in order to have a basic, hand to mouth living. And yes I believe this to be almost entirely to immigration.

Let go of your ego and be honest that the country is partially to blame when a person making an 'average' income is living hand to mouth.

[Canuck E Stan]

No we need to start at the other end. Stop promoting consumerism.

I don't think so, the place to start is at home, teaching your children to value what they have and teach them to be responsible for their own purchases(you want it, work for it).

It's funny how kids learn very quickly that money doesn't grow on trees and their desire for some items becomes less important when they have to account for paying for it.

Too many parents get on guilt trips and feel they must buy their children's love or buy respect.

Give them the basics, throw in some love and some time, and the kids will take care of the extras they want.

Oh, big factor, get rid of the cable TV,for the good of both the parent and the child.

mikedavid00

Let go of your ego and be honest that the country is partially to blame when a person making an 'average' income is living hand to mouth.

Stupid, stupid statement,it appears your ego is bigger than your credentials.

If someone is living hand to mouth with average wages, the problem is with the individual, not the country.

You want it all,and you want it now.And in the end you get the financial problems you deserve.

Quit looking at the other guy and what he's got. Look at what you've got and what you have to offer.

Can't get a better job or better pay? Quit bitchin' about everyone else being the problem, and find out why YOU don't make the grade.

[mikedavid00]

If someone is living hand to mouth with average wages, the problem is with the individual, not the country.

I disagree.

In Bangladesh if you are making a average wages, you will be living hand to mouth. It's ultimately the country in which you live. Spending habits are secondary IMO.

You want it all,and you want it now.And in the end you get the financial problems you deserve.

That's true. But you can't say that is the cause for her problems.

Quit looking at the other guy and what he's got. Look at what you've got and what you have to offer.

Can't get a better job or better pay? Quit bitchin' about everyone else being the problem, and find out why YOU don't make the grade.

Self hatred.

This isn't about myself. It's about my fellow citizens. I find it troubling when someone is making the average wage of Canada, and bascially has only a few hundred left over to spend on herself after bills and expenses. In the US these aren't problems.

You get angry and blame fellow citizens when they went to school, work in good faith, and barely have anything left over and are living hand to mouth. This is a form of self hatred. Plain and simple. I used to be the same way to, but sellf hatred is never the answer to fixing our problems.

-If someone is in Ottawa and cannot get a job because they can't speak french, this is the fault of our country.

-If you are white and grow up in the GTA and find that you cannot meet a female because everyone femail seems to be part of some 'ethnic culture' which her parents would not approve, this is the fault of the country.

-If you went to school for 5 years, got good grades, got experience in co-op, and cannot find a job because there are barely any jobs and the employer is being flooded with resumes from immigrants looking for work that destroy your credentials, this is the fault of the country. A Canadian has just lost a job needlessly. (this is a daily occurance in Canada that is ltterally the single most important thing that is killing our quality of life but that's anohter post).

-If you are making a middle income, have 2 kids, a car, and a very small house in the suberbs and are living hand to mouth with barely any money left over, this is the fault of the country.

-If your son or daughter finishes highschool with 85% grades, tries to enrole in the local University, and to your shock are told that your daughter does not meet the requirments to enrole in a program, this is the fault of the country.

You can't keep blaming induviduals for the fact they are living hand to mouth. It's unfair, and it's self hating that solves nothing.

Again, this same lady can have the same in the US, lease a BMW, and have more left over. This is becasue their country is better. Not her spending habits.

Admit it, this country is poor, it's economy sucks, our housing prices are far too high, employers don't pay wages unless it's a white colar welfare, our labor market is completely over saturated, and we are heavily, heavily taxed. This is the reason this lady is barely making ends meet; not becasue 'she has to have it all'.

[Live From China]

Your defintion of poor is not being able to eat out in a restaurant when you want? Tell that to the person who cant afford to feed their children.

If you think a degree is a guarantee against ever being poor think again.

The sad truth of the matter is most of the people living in poverty are disabled, and I do NOT mean mentally challenged, I mean those who have been injured on the job, and single parents. Many of who do have a degree but are considerable "undesirabled" by employers.