Dion Courting Western Canada

[normanchateau]

You are referring to the poll published in the Western Standard in August, 2005 which yielded a figure of 42% of Albertans supporting separation. The problem with that poll was how the question was phrased. I don't recall the exact words but it was something to the effect of exploring the idea of forming a new country. Asking people whether they want to explore an idea generates a higher response rate than asking directly about wanting to separate. The pollster, Faron Ellis, was condemned for phrasing the question in a way guaranteed to produce a high percentage of yes responses.

I'm not sure if I'm violating some rules of the board by saying so but there are various blogspots, e.g., Bouquets of Gray, which have exposed Ellis' questionable methodology.

The Western Standard published a poll this fall. the polster was Compas.

It's a pretty vague question.

Do you think Western Canadians should begin to

explore the idea of forming their own country?

Adding up the strongly agrees and somewhat agrees they only got 28% support.

Here is the link to the poll.

This is exactly the same question that was asked in 2005 and shows a significant drop relative to the previous poll. I suppose it's not surprising that having Stephen Harper as PM has reduced the number of Albertans agreeing with the statement.

[jdobbin]

Bruce Hutton did not run in the election I was talking about, and the 40% poll was taken after the election you are talking about.

"Exploring separation" as a question sounds like the weasel words that Alberta politicians accuse Quebec of with their sovereignty-association poll questions.

[Ricki Bobbi]

"Exploring separation" as a question sounds like the weasel words that Alberta politicians accuse Quebec of with their sovereignty-association poll questions.

It was more than just *Alberta politicians* who had an issue with the wording of the Quebec referendum question.

[normanchateau]

Bruce Hutton did not run in the election I was talking about, and the 40% poll was taken after the election you are talking about.

"Exploring separation" as a question sounds like the weasel words that Alberta politicians accuse Quebec of with their sovereignty-association poll questions.

Yes, that's exactly why Faron Ellis was criticized for phrasing the question as he did. The question was designed to generate a lot of "agree" responses.

[B. Max]

I suppose it's not surprising that having Stephen Harper as PM has reduced the number of Albertans agreeing with the statement.

Which is what I said. However that is beginning to disappear. In the last provincial election conservatives did not turn out as expected. Which I think began the end for Ralph. There were also calls from inside the party to look at separation. Alberta secession is not dead by any means. It is like a volcano that is waiting for the right combination of events and the right leader in place at the right time.

[normanchateau]

I suppose it's not surprising that having Stephen Harper as PM has reduced the number of Albertans agreeing with the statement.

Alberta secession is not dead by any means. It is like a volcano that is waiting for the right combination of events and the right leader in place at the right time.

Kind of like Germany's perceived humiliation after the Treaty of Versailles?

[jdobbin]

It appears Dion's idea of a tax reward for environmental behaviour is winning support in almost every province. Alberta has the lowest level of support but even there it was more popular then the Tory promise.

The hypothetical Liberal promise that was put to poll participants by Decima outperformed the Conservative promise in every part of the country except Alberta. In that province there was a 46 per cent versus 37 per cent preference for the no-strings option.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070114/.../green_tax_poll

[mikedavid00]

Bush thought nothing would touch him on Iraq either. It is relevant as an issue that could effect votes in a place like Alberta.

Not true.

We are not sinking our entire economy into Afganistan.

The US has put their federal debt on the line to go into Iraq. This is why Americans are unhappy. They also see that they are not able to change Islam.

Before 9-11, Americans were not clued into Islam like they are today. There is no trying to chnage Islam thus they find the war useless and non winnable.

It's a war against 'aliens from the stoneage' at this point and Americans aren't going to pay for it any longer.

Regarding Canada, we don't really care enough about Afganistan to make or break our vote.

[B. Max]

It appears Dion's idea of a tax reward for environmental behaviour is winning support in almost every province. Alberta has the lowest level of support but even there it was more popular then the Tory promise.

The hypothetical Liberal promise that was put to poll participants by Decima outperformed the Conservative promise in every part of the country except Alberta. In that province there was a 46 per cent versus 37 per cent preference for the no-strings option.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070114/.../green_tax_poll

Then they should find those fifty one percent and tax them like Christ bearing down on a sinner.

[geoffrey]

Kind of like Germany's perceived humiliation after the Treaty of Versailles?

You can't possibly be serious.

--

Stelmach is a much more hardline provincial autonomist. He's already called for Alberta to have control over it's immigration policies like Quebec, be recognized as a nation like Quebec and they are exploring an Alberta Pension Plan that would be nearly double the payout as the RoC as it'd be topped off with oil royalties (see: Norway).

Stelmach isn't a sepertist, but we're slowing creeping towards that. I was afraid he was a weak kneed farmer. But he may prove to be more of a godsend to confederation in terms of giving provinces the power to make Canada work than Morton could ever have been.

[jdobbin]

Stelmach isn't a sepertist, but we're slowing creeping towards that. I was afraid he was a weak kneed farmer. But he may prove to be more of a godsend to confederation in terms of giving provinces the power to make Canada work than Morton could ever have been.

I don't know what end of powers to the provinces the premiers would be satisfied with. At some point, they are have a federation sufficiently hampered as to be even more dysfunctional. I guess Alberta could be a rich landlocked nation but I don't know too many of those in the world that last without the cooperation of their neighbors in some sort of federation.

[Ricki Bobbi]

At some point, they are have a federation sufficiently hampered as to be even more dysfunctional.

[geoffrey]

I don't know what end of powers to the provinces the premiers would be satisfied with. At some point, they are have a federation sufficiently hampered as to be even more dysfunctional. I guess Alberta could be a rich landlocked nation but I don't know too many of those in the world that last without the cooperation of their neighbors in some sort of federation.

It's not just Canada that neighbours Alberta. BC is ideologically similiar in many areas, I'm sure we'd do just fine. 60% of our produced goods and services doesn't even involve Canada.

Unlike Quebec, we have a viable economy outside confederation already.

The emotions of losing a province aside, Alberta can practically do just fine on it's own.

[Keepitsimple]

It appears Dion's idea of a tax reward for environmental behaviour is winning support in almost every province. Alberta has the lowest level of support but even there it was more popular then the Tory promise.

The hypothetical Liberal promise that was put to poll participants by Decima outperformed the Conservative promise in every part of the country except Alberta. In that province there was a 46 per cent versus 37 per cent preference for the no-strings option.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070114/.../green_tax_poll

Then they should find those fifty one percent and tax them like Christ bearing down on a sinner.

I'm a little confused. If these are "hypothetical" election promises - then why is one Conservative and the other one Liberal? In general, of course someone would prefer tying a tax cut to environmental behaviour - it sounds all warm and fuzzy - like a Liberal promise should......but take a moment to think of how one could possibly define what that "environmental behaviour" should be - and how you would measure and manage it for the supposed tax benefit. This is precisely why Liberals have always talked a good game (to pander to naive voters, of course) but never delivered......and let's not forget that Canada has a fundamental problem of being one of the highest taxed Western democracies....and that affects every Canadian.

[jdobbin]

And let's not forget that Canada has a fundamental problem of being the highest taxed Wester democracy....and that affects every Canadian.

Canada is higher than all western countries? According to who?

[Ricki Bobbi]

It's not just Canada that neighbours Alberta. BC is ideologically similiar in many areas, I'm sure we'd do just fine. 60% of our produced goods and services doesn't even involve Canada.

Unlike Quebec, we have a viable economy outside confederation already.

The emotions of losing a province aside, Alberta can practically do just fine on it's own.

What was the name for a proposed country of Alberta and BC? Cascadia?

Something tells me that just might pass. Outside the lower mainland and the Island the two provinces are very, very similar.

[jdobbin]

It's not just Canada that neighbours Alberta. BC is ideologically similiar in many areas, I'm sure we'd do just fine. 60% of our produced goods and services doesn't even involve Canada.

Unlike Quebec, we have a viable economy outside confederation already.

The emotions of losing a province aside, Alberta can practically do just fine on it's own.

I'm just saying that there are few examples of a successful landlocked nation. I presuppose if Alberta had a plan to exit Canada with B.C. they could make a go of it but I see no indication that people from either province are working to that end. I see no evidence that Albertans are supporting separatists in elections.

[Keepitsimple]

And let's not forget that Canada has a fundamental problem of being the highest taxed Wester democracy....and that affects every Canadian.

Canada is higher than all western countries? According to who?

I was wrong in that statement - too quick on the keyboard today. It's difficult to compare from country to country because of all the taxes over and above Income Tax - GST, Sales Tax, Gas taxes, etc. All inclusive, there is no doubt that we are one of the higher-taxed Western countries but some of the Scandinavian countries pay more than we do.

[jdobbin]

I was wrong in that statement - too quick on the keyboard today. It's difficult to compare from country to country because of all the taxes over and above Income Tax - GST, Sales Tax, Gas taxes, etc. All inclusive, there is no doubt that we are one of the higher-taxed Western countries but some of the Scandinavian countries pay more than we do.

The OECD says Canada is about average for a western country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Canada

http://titania.sourceoecd.org/pdf/fact2006pdf/09-03-01.pdf

[normanchateau]

It's not just Canada that neighbours Alberta. BC is ideologically similiar in many areas,

BC ideologically similar?

Here's how British Columbians planned to vote federally when polled last month:

"In B.C., the Liberals would get the support of 39 per cent of voters, compared to 26 per cent for the Tories and 24 per cent for the NDP."

Source:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.h...fab6195&k=18732

And the number of Liberal and NDP MPs (19) elected from British Columbia surpassed the number of Conservative MPs (17)...not quite like Alberta. And neither Vancouver nor Victoria elected a Conservative MP, David Emerson notwithstanding.

[mikedavid00]

The emotions of losing a province aside, Alberta can practically do just fine on it's own.

If I moved to Alberta I would serioulsy become active in seperation. I have lived in Ontario, has seen what has happened, been to Quebec, seen how that is.

I must say though.. Montreal has the best street signs, public benches, most nicesest shopping complexes, clean washrooms, best street lamps, infrastructurer maintance I've seen... it's just an amazing city. It's so hard to believe that it's such a welfare provicnce. When you drive into Montreal it almost screams wealth and prosperity.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r261/mi...06/PICT2092.jpg That says it all!

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r261/mi...06/PICT2077.jpg Just look at the street lights

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r261/mi...06/PICT2076.jpg The latest in busses!

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r261/mi...06/PICT2062.jpg Totally high tech road system.

[Saturn]

and let's not forget that Canada has a fundamental problem of being one of the highest taxed Western democracies....and that affects every Canadian.

Get off the clouds. Canada's taxation levels are slightly lower than average among Western democracies.

[Canuck E Stan]

If I moved to Alberta....

Dreamers and wannabees are not required in Alberta.

[mikedavid00]

Dreamers and wannabees are not required in Alberta.

You mean I can' immigrate to Alberta? Are there any landing services I can use?

[Ricki Bobbi]

Dreamers and wannabees are not required in Alberta.

If they are willing to work hard and put in an honesty day's work the welcome mat is out to anybody...