Oda not welcome at provincial meeting on women's issues

[mikedavid00]

Why should I have to pay for a triple or quadruple bypass that some person needs because of their inability to eat right? Something that costs X100 more in fact.

Because that person has paid into the system his whole life and is entitled to recieve care?

[jefferiah]

Once again I will say that no one is forcing anything on you. Abortion is legal. Mike and I have expressed our beliefs that is wrong, but we are not out bombing clinics or stopping women from getting them. So no one is forcing anything on you. Is abortion a mandatory procedure? If someone needs medical care then yes they have a priviledge to receive that in Canada. That is a priviledge you know. But is abortion mandatory for medical well-being. What percentage of abortions are done because of a mandatory medical need? Keep in mind I am not even asking you to change your view on abortion because of this. But why should Mike have to pay for people to lobby for subsidization of a cause he doesnt support.

[blueblood]

It cannot be discussed on those grounds either though, we have universal medical care access. It is our right as a Canadian! You take 1 universal access away you take them all.

So what your saying is for the women who don't choose to use birth control while having sex not to worry if you get pregnant, someone else will pay for your mistake. What the hell is this Russia??? For someone who has been audited for 80,000 dollars I find that attitude extremely offensive. Why should I pay for someone who is too dumb to keep their legs shut or use birth control???

Well you don't have to force the child out, she can carry the baby full term where she can decide whether she wants the baby or not and let the state take over the care for the child. I feel that the killing a person with rights is completely wrong.

If the woman is raped, then she can give the child away if she doesn't want it.

And besides, don't people pay around $100,000 per child for adoption?

Some women can die from complications due to pregnancy. she shouldn't have to die because of an idealism like that, especially if she didn't want it in the first place. She shouldn't be forced into 9 months of torture as well, I wouldn't want to carry a baby especially one I don't want.

If people took sex more seriously and weren't so selfish we wouldn't have these problems. Call 1900 society oppressive, but I'm pretty sure there weren't a lot of unwanted pregnancies in those days. Having choices also means having responsibility and realizing the consequences of your actions. An innocent life shouldn't be brought into the world and neglected/unwanted all because missy wants a piece of ass.

[mikedavid00]

But why should Mike have to pay for people to lobby for subsidization of a cause he doesnt support.

Exactly. In the US you have to go to an abortion clinic and pay for the abortion yourself. If you can't afford the pay I beleive that there are burseries funded by womens groups and private organizations that will pay the $300 to get it done.

The tax payers aren't on the hook.

[jefferiah]

But why should Mike have to pay for people to lobby for subsidization of a cause he doesnt support.

Exactly. In the US you have to go to an abortion clinic and pay for the abortion yourself. If you can't afford the pay I beleive that there are burseries funded by womens groups and private organizations that will pay the $300 to get it done.

The tax payers aren't on the hook.

Mike, you horrible awful mysogynist. Expressing concern over where your tax dollars go. How dare you?

[Catchme]

But why should Mike have to pay for people to lobby for subsidization of a cause he doesnt support.

Exactly. In the US you have to go to an abortion clinic and pay for the abortion yourself. If you can't afford the pay I beleive that there are burseries funded by womens groups and private organizations that will pay the $300 to get it done.

The tax payers aren't on the hook.

Mike, you horrible awful mysogynist. Expressing concern over where your tax dollars go. How dare you?

Ah but your using tax dollars as a cover for misogyny and sexism. My example of the 300k minimum quad by pass stands. It is after the fact care.

But anyway I recognize you all will justify your misogyny how you will, and I need not participate.

And ya notice all there are not a lot of women who post here, I wonder why?

[jefferiah]

But why should Mike have to pay for people to lobby for subsidization of a cause he doesnt support.

Exactly. In the US you have to go to an abortion clinic and pay for the abortion yourself. If you can't afford the pay I beleive that there are burseries funded by womens groups and private organizations that will pay the $300 to get it done.

The tax payers aren't on the hook.

Mike, you horrible awful mysogynist. Expressing concern over where your tax dollars go. How dare you?

Ah but your using tax dollars as a cover for misogyny and sexism. My example of the 300k minimum quad by pass stands. It is after the fact care.

But anyway I recognize you all will justify your misogyny how you will, and I need not participate.

And ya notice all there are not a lot of women who post here, I wonder why?

Har Har. Thats ridiculous. And there are a lot of women who post here. Mike and I dont support abortion. Not because he hates women, because he believes its wrong. And as I have pointed out again and again, neither Mike or I can stop any woman from having one. You can have five thousand abortions if you like and we cant do anything about it. But if we dont believe in it, because we believe that you are using women's rights to label any dissenters of abortion as anti-female, when we believe that the choice you are making is not just for your body but for another living thing----why should we have to subsidize it. If you believe in it, then I cant stop you. But why should I pay for what is mostly an unnecessary surgery. Thats not mysogyny. Thats having an opinion.

[blueblood]

And I'll continue to bitch at someone who consciously makes a selfish mistake such as getting pregnant and expecting society to foot the bill.

Close the legs and/or use birth control then the problem only applies to rape victims which then I can see covering the costs for an abortion.

[Canadian Blue]

Pro-choice as regards to abortion does represent the views of all women. Again what do you fail to see about what the word "choice" means? If a woman chooses to be "pro-life" for herself that is her "choice". It means she chooses not to have an abortion. It is her "choice". Please read this over a couple you will get it.

Being pro-life does not give anyone the right to have rights over another person's body or life. Nor does it give the right to anyone to ascribe what they choose in life upon others.

Whatever may or may not happen to that feotus is unknown and unknowable to anyone and cannot be brought into any discussion on rights to self determine.

It is not up for debate, because it cannot be up for debate, if you take away 1 persons right to self determine, you take away all peoples rights to self determination, male or female. Then we all become wards of the state or feudalistic serfs and gentry.

Not really, since it's about life and some people feel strongly that a nation should value life from conception on.

Well, what if some people consider a fetus a human soul, thus it's a moral question. If it was so simple then their would be no abortion debate, the early feminists were strong opponents of abortion also.

I suppose it depends on whether you view no change as extreme. I do.

What kind of change is "good change". Look at Eugenics, that was supposed to make our world better. However as we found out, Eugenics only worsened human suffering despite promising to bring about a better world. Strangely enough abortion is in some ways a form of eugenics as people are starting to use abortion to determine the sex of the baby. Who know's, maybe in the future we will be able to manufacture children if we continue to progress in reproduction technology. I think we shouldn't be playing god, however that's my own personal opinion.

[jefferiah]

Pro-choice as regards to abortion does represent the views of all women. Again what do you fail to see about what the word "choice" means? If a woman chooses to be "pro-life" for herself that is her "choice". It means she chooses not to have an abortion. It is her "choice". Please read this over a couple you will get it.

Being pro-life does not give anyone the right to have rights over another person's body or life. Nor does it give the right to anyone to ascribe what they choose in life upon others.

Whatever may or may not happen to that feotus is unknown and unknowable to anyone and cannot be brought into any discussion on rights to self determine.

It is not up for debate, because it cannot be up for debate, if you take away 1 persons right to self determine, you take away all peoples rights to self determination, male or female. Then we all become wards of the state or feudalistic serfs and gentry.

Not really, since it's about life and some people feel strongly that a nation should value life from conception on.

Well, what if some people consider a fetus a human soul, thus it's a moral question. If it was so simple then their would be no abortion debate, the early feminists were strong opponents of abortion also.

I suppose it depends on whether you view no change as extreme. I do.

What kind of change is "good change". Look at Eugenics, that was supposed to make our world better. However as we found out, Eugenics only worsened human suffering despite promising to bring about a better world. Strangely enough abortion is in some ways a form of eugenics as people are starting to use abortion to determine the sex of the baby. Who know's, maybe in the future we will be able to manufacture children if we continue to progress in reproduction technology. I think we shouldn't be playing god, however that's my own personal opinion.

If the early "feminists" were "against" abortion, that would mean (according to Catch Me's standard) that if you became pro-abortion over night Canadian Blue you would be as much as a mysogynist as men who disapprove of it, because you would be disagreeing with the opinion of a feminist.

[jefferiah]

If as you say Catch Me Pro Choice represents all women because they then have a choice to have an abortion whether they believe in it or not, well what about being pro-choice as to funding it. Are you pro that choice?

[White Doors]

With rights comes responsibility.

You can't have without the numbers no matter how far you bury your head in the sand catchme.

Would you be against a law outlawing 3rd trimester abortions unless medically necessary?

Answer the question

[Catchme]

And I'll continue to bitch at someone who consciously makes a selfish mistake such as getting pregnant and expecting society to foot the bill.

Close the legs and/or use birth control then the problem only applies to rape victims which then I can see covering the costs for an abortion.

Do you then feel the same way about; heart transplants, by pass surgery, Type 2 Diabetes treatment, joint replacements from sports over use? And I could name several other extremely costly conditions that we pay for even though people have consiously made the selfish decision, to eat unhealthily, to smoke, and to ignore Drs warnings, and still they expect society to foot the bill?

Framing the terms around the woman being the victim of rape being the only one society should pay for is illogical, and unenforcable..

Plus, there is no such things as a "selfish mistake", mistakes are just mistakes, to ascribe selfish to it means the person premeditated it and then it is NOT a mistake. Nor do women go around getting pregnant just so they can have an abortion!

[jefferiah]

People dont go around drinking and driving so they can have a horrible accident, either.

[jefferiah]

Plus what moral objection can you have to provding health care that could be necessary to improving a person's over all health (a heart transplant) that could compare to a person's objection to funding abortion, which are largely done out out of no medical need whatsoever.

[Who's Doing What?]

The 10 of us can sit on a board, pay ourselves $70k a year, get student volunteers, and basically let them wash cars to raise money.

Where do I sign up?

[normanchateau]

Plus what moral objection can you have to provding health care that could be necessary to improving a person's over all health (a heart transplant) that could compare to a person's objection to funding abortion, which are largely done out out of no medical need whatsoever.

No medical need whatsoever? Do you not see psychiatry as a medical discipline? Nine months of compulsory and unwanted pregnancy has significant psychiatric and psychological consequences in a proportion of the population. Even among those who very much want a child, hormone-triggered postpartum depression can be serious and life-threatening. Imagine how serious it can be in those who didn't want the child to begin with.

No medical need whatsoever...humbug. Read the psychiatric literature!

[jefferiah]

Norman you are causing me great psychiatric distress. But nobody will let me get rid of you.

[blueblood]

And I'll continue to bitch at someone who consciously makes a selfish mistake such as getting pregnant and expecting society to foot the bill.

Close the legs and/or use birth control then the problem only applies to rape victims which then I can see covering the costs for an abortion.

Do you then feel the same way about; heart transplants, by pass surgery, Type 2 Diabetes treatment, joint replacements from sports over use? And I could name several other extremely costly conditions that we pay for even though people have consiously made the selfish decision, to eat unhealthily, to smoke, and to ignore Drs warnings, and still they expect society to foot the bill?

Framing the terms around the woman being the victim of rape being the only one society should pay for is illogical, and unenforcable..

Plus, there is no such things as a "selfish mistake", mistakes are just mistakes, to ascribe selfish to it means the person premeditated it and then it is NOT a mistake. Nor do women go around getting pregnant just so they can have an abortion!

Getting pregnant is a lot more preventable than heart disease, diabetes, and broken limbs. A person who is healthy can get these through no fault of their own.

Framing the terms around the woman being a rape victim is logical, she couldn't help it if she was raped. Missy who got pregnant from a one night stand could have kept her legs shut or used birth control, sounds logical to me. Enforcable, it would be very easy to enforce, you just show up with a police report and away you go with the abortion.

A one night stand that results in regret and/or STD and/or pregnancy is the definition of a selfish mistake, she wanted a piece of ass did she not? There are a lot of unwanted pregnancies though explain that? If people would take sex more seriously and weren't so selfish there wouldn't be this type of mess.

[jefferiah]

For the record there are a great deal of psychiatric studies which point to link between abortion and suicide. If you want to bring a very very theoretical science in you had better be prepared from alot more argument.

[jefferiah]

And overall I think the moral objection to abortion is so common and really such a sensitive issue that asking people to pay for it is kind of brass.

[mikedavid00]

Nine months of compulsory and unwanted pregnancy has significant psychiatric and psychological consequences in a proportion of the population.

Yeah life sucks sometimes.

An abortion is a ghost that will haunt you your whole life. Don't think otherwise.

[normanchateau]

For the record there are a great deal of psychiatric studies which point to link between abortion and suicide. If you want to bring a very very theoretical science in you had better be prepared from alot more argument.

I agree, there's no question of an association between abortion and suicide.

And there's no question that during pregnancy in those who actually want a child, suicide rates actually decline. But I look forward to you citing beneficial evidence on the psychiatric effects of unwanted pregnancies.

[blueblood]

Nine months of compulsory and unwanted pregnancy has significant psychiatric and psychological consequences in a proportion of the population.

Yeah life sucks sometimes.

An abortion is a ghost that will haunt you your whole life. Don't think otherwise.

So is a forced pregnancy

[mikedavid00]

Nine months of compulsory and unwanted pregnancy has significant psychiatric and psychological consequences in a proportion of the population.

Yeah life sucks sometimes.

An abortion is a ghost that will haunt you your whole life. Don't think otherwise.

So is a forced pregnancy

Again, life sucks sometimes.

I protect the rights of the unborn child as a citizen of Canada. It takes a community to raise a child so no I don't endorse killing life. I value it.

I guess that must be the crazy, subconsion morals I learned from my Catholic highschool.