Story from work! lol!

[bk59]

Ricki Bobbi, why the attack on Melanie_? mikedavid00 accuses Arar's wife of cheating the welfare system by not changing her last name. Melanie_ asks if he has proof of this or if this is just a drive by smear. In the absence of any evidence on mikedavid00's part then yes, it looks like a smear job. You ask Melanie_ how she can reach a conclusion about the motivations of Arar's wife. You are asking the wrong person. You should be asking mikedavid00. It's up to him to show proof of his statement, not up to the rest of us to show proof that it's not true. The fact that the Arar family is on social assistance is not proof that they are purposely cheating the system.

If I was to accuse you of stealing from me, should a third-party assume that you are guilty and demand that you show proof of your innocence? Or should the third-party demand that I, the one making the accusation, show proof? If I have no proof at all for my accusation then it would look to the third-party like I was baselessly attacking you and your reputation.

[mikedavid00]

mikedavid00 accuses Arar's wife of cheating the welfare system by not changing her last name.

No I didn't. That's why I didn't bother responding.

I said it was a well known trick that is used in the context of another situation. It's also a reason why people stay common law when they have kids. I know 2 couples in montreal that are living common law and doing this. You need to get married to get citizenship, but you don't want your last name to match or you will be considered married when you apply for welfare.

People here think that welfarer payments are really small worthless payments. No no no. When you factor in kids and living you can get thousands for doing nohting each day. Immigrants also get a bonus in Ontario to learn english from what I've heard. If you don't have a car you also get a bonus.

The SriLanken terrorst who got cuaght here in Toronto wtih one son was collecting $1600 a month.

Many people work full jobs and don't get that. We just give it to any foriegn national who shows up here in Canada.

This is slowely bankrupting us.

[Ricki Bobbi]

Ricki Bobbi, why the attack on Melanie_? mikedavid00 accuses Arar's wife of cheating the welfare system by not changing her last name. Melanie_ asks if he has proof of this or if this is just a drive by smear. In the absence of any evidence on mikedavid00's part then yes, it looks like a smear job. You ask Melanie_ how she can reach a conclusion about the motivations of Arar's wife. You are asking the wrong person. You should be asking mikedavid00. It's up to him to show proof of his statement, not up to the rest of us to show proof that it's not true. The fact that the Arar family is on social assistance is not proof that they are purposely cheating the system.

If I was to accuse you of stealing from me, should a third-party assume that you are guilty and demand that you show proof of your innocence? Or should the third-party demand that I, the one making the accusation, show proof? If I have no proof at all for my accusation then it would look to the third-party like I was baselessly attacking you and your reputation.

Of course proof is needed. Melanie asked md00 for that, while making a judgment on Arar's wife's motivation. How does she know that? If you want to question md00's theory why not question Melanie's? They are both just providing their feelings of the motivation in this case. If you are going to take md00 to task why is my taking Melanie to task an attack?

Also, when you say 'dippers' do you mean south asians? All my old co-op student friends from BC would them 'dippers' or 'dips'

To be 100% clear I was referring to NDP supporters. No racial slur intended.

[bk59]

There's some things inside the immigrant community that stay in that community. It's odd how Arar's wife has another last name than Arar. Common people may not give that a second though. But this is a common, common practice used to cheat welfare payments. If you are married, they will want the husbands income and pay you less or not even give you welfare payments. If you keep a seperate last name it is not assumed you are married. You can be a cousin or friend living in the place of residence.

mikedavid00 accuses Arar's wife of cheating the welfare system by not changing her last name.

No I didn't. That's why I didn't bother responding.

I said it was a well known trick that is used in the context of another situation.

You accused her by implying that the only reason she had for keeping her last name after marriage was that it was a common practice to cheat the welfare system. Had you only wanted to highlight this scam then there was no need to bring the Arar family into the discussion at all.

This is exactly what a smear campaign looks like. Imply someone is somehow guilty of something. That way you don't have to give any proof and you can claim that you didn't actually say anything. Even though every single person hearing or reading the statements can only draw one conclusion from your statements.

Now you may not have meant to do this. Just because it looks like an attack doesn't mean it was meant that way. But given your severe anti-immigrant, anti-Arar family stance I hope you can see why some people here got the impression that you were purposefully accusing the Arar family.

[bk59]

Of course proof is needed. Melanie asked md00 for that, while making a judgment on Arar's wife's motivation. How does she know that? If you want to question md00's theory why not question Melanie's? They are both just providing their feelings of the motivation in this case. If you are going to take md00 to task why is my taking Melanie to task an attack?

Here is the post I was referring to when I was questioning your response to Melanie_:

So there is no credence to your "drive by smear" *implication* but you can neither admit your mistake nor give up the partisanship long enough to refrain from becoming shrill. tsk tsk tsk

First, mikedavid00 in making the accusation / implication should support his statement. When someone asks for proof of his assertion this is not being partisan.

Second, with no evidence forthcoming from mikedavid00, and given his previous statements on this site, his current statements do indeed look like a smear campaign. As my previous post just stated, that doesn't mean mikedavid00 meant his statements as an attack. They just came across that way.

Third, when Melanie_ first questioned mikedavid00's statements she provided multiple reasons why a person would not change her last name upon marriage. While this is not proof of Arar's wife's motivations, it is more proof than mikedavid00 gave.

Fourth, as I tried to point out above, in Canada we presume innocence, not guilt. Yes, anyone's theory is open to questioning, whether that theory be mikedavid00's, Melanie_'s, yours, mine, etc. But the burden fell on mikedavid00 to show that there was any evidence of wrongdoing. Melanie_ brought up enough alternative explanations for why Arar's wife did not change her last name that her theory seems more plausible than mikedavid00's. Those explanations were neither partisan nor shrill.

[Ricki Bobbi]

But the burden fell on mikedavid00 to show that there was any evidence of wrongdoing. Melanie_ brought up enough alternative explanations for why Arar's wife did not change her last name that her theory seems more plausible than mikedavid00's. Those explanations were neither partisan nor shrill.

It seems more plausible to you so it shouldn't be held up to the same level of proof that MD00s is?

She tried to discredit MD00 by asking for proof if Arar's wife had ever been on social assistance. I provided the evidence. First she ignored it. Then she tried to change the subject. It only took my pushing her to admit the mistake.

She went too far in presuming to know Arar's wife's motivation.

I still think I asked a fair question. If she has some knowledge that's great. If Melanie is just pulling her *belief* in the motivations out of thin air that is pretty weak...

[mikedavid00]

You accused her by implying that the only reason she had for keeping her last name after marriage was that it was a common practice to cheat the welfare system. Had you only wanted to highlight this scam then there was no need to bring the Arar family into the discussion at all.

I never said that she did that herself. All i'm saying is that's how it's done. How am I supposed to know if she did that? I don't have access to welfare records although I wish I did becuase if poeple are living off public tax dollars, I as a tax payer have the right to know.

But given your severe anti-immigrant, anti-Arar family stance I hope you can see why some people here got the impression that you were purposefully accusing the Arar family.

Well I think that I've proven myself to be right about Arar since the beginning. I hope I exposed him for what he is.

I don't know if his wife ever cheated the welfare system, all i'm saying is this is how it's done if you want extra $$$.

It's just a common known thing. Did she do it? I guess we'll never know. If I was a betting man though..

[mikedavid00]

Fourth, as I tried to point out above, in Canada we presume innocence, not guilt.

That's technically not true but ideolgically yes it's true.

I'm not one of those people. I feel some people are guily and I don't need a trial. He came here improperly has a refugee, lied, got married to get citizenship - GUILTY!

He should be immediately detained and sent back to his home of Syria.

But the burden fell on mikedavid00 to show that there was any evidence of wrongdoing.

I never accused her of cheating welfare. I just said that it's a common practice. It's also something people use to cheat welfare payments. They were in school, not working, had 2 kids, lived in an apt with only his name and his co-workers brothers name on the lease and not his own wife (another trick). I guess we'll never know if they were cheating welfare payments. However, IF I WAS A BETTING MAN..

Melanie_ brought up enough alternative explanations for why Arar's wife did not change her last name that

Yes. Melanie brought up new age womens rights issue for not changing the last name. It's like, Melanie, She's wearning a scarf on her head! lol.. She belongs to a religion which is the most oppresive to women in the world.

her theory seems more plausible than mikedavid00's. Those explanations were neither partisan nor shrill.

Around Toronto, you will see stickers around bustops and such 'DIVORCE $300'. Now, we can get int a cozy idealogical discussion about why there is an industry here for quick, low cost divorce. We can discuss social problems, broken homes, abuse.

Or, we can get real and I can tell you the real reason why we have a this quick, low cost divorce industry here.

Same sort of thing.

[mikedavid00]

She went too far in presuming to know Arar's wife's motivation.

I still think I asked a fair question. If she has some knowledge that's great. If Melanie is just pulling her *belief* in the motivations out of thin air that is pretty weak...

I comletely agree and thank you for the quote.

She also didn't believe that people who seek refuge from Somalia collect welfare. I pretty much gave her proof and she disgregarded that too.

It's not good to let emotion over ride facts.

[bk59]

It seems more plausible to you so it shouldn't be held up to the same level of proof that MD00s is?

That's not what I said at all. I said she gave at least some evidence of her theory. md00 gave none. In my opinion that makes her theory more plausible than md00's implied accusation. I never said the level of proof was different. Please re-read my third point.

She tried to discredit MD00 by asking for proof if Arar's wife had ever been on social assistance. I provided the evidence. First she ignored it. Then she tried to change the subject. It only took my pushing her to admit the mistake.

She went too far in presuming to know Arar's wife's motivation.

I still think I asked a fair question. If she has some knowledge that's great. If Melanie is just pulling her *belief* in the motivations out of thin air that is pretty weak...

She asked md00 to provide evidence that Arar's wife was on welfare. This was given. Then she asked for evidence that Arar's wife was cheating the welfare system. You responded by saying she was being partisan and shrill. I'm just saying that the comments about being partisan and shrill were over the top. How is asking for md00 to back up his implication that Arar's wife is cheating the system being partisan? How is that shrill? I'm not even sure you can classify that as changing the subject. She accepted your evidence and then asked the next logical question with regards to md00 providing evidence.

She went too far in presuming to know Arar's wife's motivation? That's exactly what md00 did. Why not accuse him of partisanship? Especially since Melanie_ did provide reasons why she thought not changing your last name does not equate to cheating the system.

Asking for some proof is a fair question. Some proof was given, just not enough for your taste. I can accept that and have no problem with that. What I have trouble understanding is how you can accuse her of partisanship when I don't think you have yet asked md00 for the same level of proof for his statements. When will you say that md00 went too far in presuming to know Arar's wife's motivation? When will you say that md00 went too far in presuming to know what the motivations are for every single immigrant who comes into this country?

[bk59]

Fourth, as I tried to point out above, in Canada we presume innocence, not guilt.

That's technically not true but ideolgically yes it's true.

I'm not one of those people. I feel some people are guily and I don't need a trial. He came here improperly has a refugee, lied, got married to get citizenship - GUILTY!

He should be immediately detained and sent back to his home of Syria.

I can only hope that you never get to exercise that particular philosophy over another person. Or worse than that, be faced with a situation where you are accused of something that you are innocent of, and be forced to face judgment at the hands of people like you - people who just assume you are guilty.

It's not good to let emotion over ride facts.

This is hilarious coming from you. After all, you apparently feel no need to go into the facts when judging others. After all, according to you, Arar got married to get citizenship.

Ooops... married in 1994, but became a citizen in 1991...

Glad to see that you didn't let the facts get in the way of your anti-Arar worldview.

[mikedavid00]

When will you say that md00 went too far in presuming to know Arar's wife's motivation? When will you say that md00 went too far in presuming to know what the motivations are for every single immigrant who comes into this country?

I never said I knew for sure that she was cheating welfare. What we do know is that she was indeed on welfare and her name was not on the lease for her apt. I just said that people commonly do this in order to cheat the system. I never said that she did it. I don't have access to those records.

Also, I never claimed I knew the motivation for every immigrant coming here. Never once.

They are coming here becuase we let them come. That's why.

[Melanie_]

This is hilarious coming from you. After all, you apparently feel no need to go into the facts when judging others. After all, according to you, Arar got married to get citizenship.

Ooops... married in 1994, but became a citizen in 1991...

Glad to see that you didn't let the facts get in the way of your anti-Arar worldview.

Lets not forget that the application for social assistance was in 2003; she must have really been thinking ahead when she didn't change her name in 1994.

Ricki Bobbi, when you ask why she applied for social assistance, you can find your answer in MikeDavid00's signature. The family's savings were depleted after the detainment, and Arar was unable to work.

I never accused her of cheating welfare. I just said that it's a common practice. It's also something people use to cheat welfare payments. They were in school, not working, had 2 kids, lived in an apt with only his name and his co-workers brothers name on the lease and not his own wife (another trick). I guess we'll never know if they were cheating welfare payments. However, IF I WAS A BETTING MAN..

MikeDavid, you may not have come right out and said she was cheating the system, but you implied it and continue to imply it without any basis but your unwavering antagonism towards this family.

bk59, I appreciate your support, but I think we are wasting our time trying to discuss this with these two. This will be my last post in this thread.

[Ricki Bobbi]

Ricki Bobbi, when you ask why she applied for social assistance, you can find your answer in MikeDavid00's signature. The family's savings were depleted after the detainment, and Arar was unable to work.

I never asked why she applied for social assistance.

In response to this:

Yes, I was wrong when I suggested she hadn't applied for social assistance. She obviously did, as has been pointed out. But I don't think it had anything to do with her last name, or with a deliberate attempt to cheat the system by not disclosing her marital status. Her situation was irrelevent to the discussion of abuses of the system.

To repeat my question : where did you come across this insight into her motivations? How do you know the family's savings were depleted? Do you know if they had any savings to begin with?

Seems to me you simply assumed the goodness and honesty in the hearts of these people as a way of trying to demonize hard-hearted conservatives like MD00. But you still have no proof!!!

[Argus]

Get this, MikeDavid. True story, I swear to God (although I suspect you might think it is "unreal"). Today, right across Canada, thousands of immigrants went to their jobs, worked productively, paid their taxes, and made positive contributions to the economy and society in general.

Hey, get this, Melanie, I swear to God that today thousands of foreigners, immigrants and phoney immigrants, are on the streets mugging, raping, robbing, selling drugs, forcing young girls into prostitution, shooting and fighting it out for territory, hundreds of thousands are on welfare, and hundreds of thousands who aren't, are still taking their native, tightfisted ways to heart by stocking up on food from the soup kitchens, clothes from the Salvation Army, and furniture from Goodwill.

[Argus]

All I can say is we need more Canadians like this fellow from Guyana, who strictly adhere to the 5th commandment.

It's not hard to honour their father by stealing other people's money to do it.

[Argus]

And of course Immigration Canada will review this and make no distinction that the man is injured and looking for health care.....umm ok

Eventually, but in the meantime, a claim of refugee status HAS to be respected. He WILL be allowed in, WILL be given welfare and health care, and then, a year or two or three down the road, when he eventually has his hearing, he MIGHT be ordered out, and he MIGHT - but probably won't - go.

[Argus]

Now saturn, what the heck are you doing bringing facts into this discussion? It wrecks, no wait, totally blows all of mikedavids assertions out of the water. Of course he will try and spin this another way, or totally ignore the link and continue spouting hateful diatribes against immigrants.

Sheesh...facts whodathunkit !

So you're saying immigrants don't use health care?

[jdobbin]

So you're saying immigrants don't use health care?

You think that immigrants are responsible for the majority of heathcare costs?

[Ricki Bobbi]

You think that immigrants are responsible for the majority of heathcare costs?

Abuses to the system should be dealt with wherever they come from...

[guyser]

So you're saying immigrants don't use health care?

I am not saying that at all, they do use health care. It is my belief that they in no way are responsible for any percieved mess that health care is in.

Abuses to our health care should be looked at and stopped. This would put a lot of Canadians in trouble.

[mikedavid00]

So you're saying immigrants don't use health care?

You think that immigrants are responsible for the majority of heathcare costs?

Oh God.

Everyone pays insurance for cars each year.

The money they collect each year goes towards paying other people who make claims.

The chances are you won't make a claim this year.

One day, you will most likely make a claim that will cover you.

You've paid into the system.

It's a group effort from all drivers to pay into the program in order to make it work.

Now what happens if each year there is a 5% increase in claims.

Your insurance will go up a little bit.

Now what happens over 20 years?

Eventuallly, you wake up and realize that you are paying double for insurance and not getting back the service you paid into when you need it.

While this isn't a perfect example to use for healthcare, you get the basic idea.

[Argus]

So you're saying immigrants don't use health care?

You think that immigrants are responsible for the majority of heathcare costs?

Clearly not. I do think, however, that their use of the system costs us more than we get from them, and that there are clear abuses such as that which started this thread. The fact there are 300,000 some OHIP cards more than there are people in Ontario is an indication of widespread abuse. I believe, though no one has mentioned it recently, that many Americans in border areas abuse our system, as well.

[Argus]

So you're saying immigrants don't use health care?

I am not saying that at all, they do use health care. It is my belief that they in no way are responsible for any percieved mess that health care is in.

In no way? I'm going by a recent thread on this started by the same person, mind, more than on facts as revealed in this one. But my perception is that immigrants are a net loss so far as use of government resources is concerned. I.e., the amount of taxes they pay is less than the amount of resources they consume. And clearly there are abuses to our system involving immigrants which should be dealt with. That includes, in my opinion, the idiocy of our system in allowing sick immigrants with HIV/AIDS or other expensive, continuing diseases and conditions, to immigrate to Canada.

[Argus]

You think that immigrants are responsible for the majority of heathcare costs?

Abuses to the system should be dealt with wherever they come from...

Unfortunately, this is an issue of dual jurisdiction. And we have a minority in federal government.

Anyone who steps off a plane or crosses the border can declare themselves a refugee. It doesn't matter if they're from Detroit or Paris or Tehran. The procedure then is they are photographed, fingerprinted, and then sent on their way to collect welfare. They are eligible for all normal social services at this point. That includes full medical care.

So if you're in Guyana - or Texas, and need immediate, expensive medical treatment, why you get yourself some phoney ID, get on a plane to Canada (tearing up your ID in the bathroom), declare yourself a refugee, and then head for the nearest hospital. After a half million dollars or so of treatment, you go back home.

Pretty simple, really.