Five soldiers at a New Brunswick army base have been charged with drug

[lenwick]

GAGETOWN, N.B. (CP) - Five soldiers at a New Brunswick army base have been charged with drug trafficking.

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Corporals Brian Stevens, William Venator, Garry Kettle, Harold Robinson and Pte. Allan Hogan are all serving at CFB Gagetown, near Fredericton.

They are accused of trafficking in cocaine, ecstasy and marijuana.

The five were charged following a seven-month undercover investigation by the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service.

[Canadian Blue]

Congrats to the MP's who busted them.

[helping_hand]

Whatever happened to the old saying of, "Innocent until proven guilty"?

[normanchateau]

If there were five drug dealers, who were their customers and why weren't they charged? What's the point in having laws which say simple possession is a crime if those laws aren't enforced?

[Canadian Blue]

I'm pretty sure that they didn't disclose the "customers".

[normanchateau]

I'm pretty sure that they didn't disclose the "customers".

How can one prove someone's selling without finding a single buyer?

[Canadian Blue]

No, the military wouldn't release the names of people who were using. Those people would probably go into counselling.

As well according to the article it was an undercover operation done by CFNIS, so perhap's they were caught selling, or attempted to sell drugs to an MP.

[helping_hand]

I would hope that the military would provide treatment for the sellers too. Drug addiction takes over, when these drugs are in control, a person will do what you never would have expected them to ever do, the drugs are in control.

[geoffrey]

I'm pretty sure that they didn't disclose the "customers".

How can one prove someone's selling without finding a single buyer?

Having a few pounds of weed isn't personal consumption.

[normanchateau]

I'm pretty sure that they didn't disclose the "customers".

How can one prove someone's selling without finding a single buyer?

Having a few pounds of weed isn't personal consumption.

A few pounds describes the sellers. Presumably the buyers had only a few grams. If there are sellers, there must be buyers or these drug traffickers were wasting their time.

CB states that the buyers would receive counselling. Sounds like a far more humane and compassionate position that Harper's. Harper supports the current legislation for simple possession which includes potential jail time.

[Catchme]

Personally, there is more to this topic than what has been discussed. To bad the original post did not link to the article.

I followed this news and all the information provided inthe media, at all levels. My first and foremost thought was; "how many of these military personal just got back from activity duty?" followed by; "how many are self medicating to cover their PTSD that is not being addressed"?

People use drugs for a reason, when people use drugs for a reason, from there becomes the need for sellers to those who feel the need to self medicate. Chicken egg scenario.

Of note, the sellers were also users, and at least one has PTSD diagnosed.

My suggestion is that, seeing as how prohibition and punishment do not work, while detox and treatment of the underlaying casual factor do, condemning the user/sellers who have causational factors is wrong.

[normanchateau]

I followed this news and all the information provided inthe media, at all levels. My first and foremost thought was; "how many of these military personal just got back from activity duty?" followed by; "how many are self medicating to cover their PTSD that is not being addressed"?

Interesting questions. I gather you are suggesting that the users/buyers started their drug use after they joined the Canadian forces. My guess is that if ever a study were done of this issue, it would reveal that some started after they joined the forces and some started before.

This doesn't rule out your self-medicating hypothesis as some might very well have been self-medicating before they joined the forces and others after.

[helping_hand]

I joined this forum because I am in fact friends with one of the accused. I have been his friend for some 17yrs. He is an addict.

Having close to the military all of my life I can tell you that as far as military organizations around the world, the Canadian forces does have one of the best PTSD programs. I don't know that any of the accused have been diagnosed with PTSD at this point yet.

I do not condone any of their actions, but I do hope that our military will offer them the help that they need to overcome their addictions.

[normanchateau]

I joined this forum because I am in fact friends with one of the accused. I have been his friend for some 17yrs. He is an addict.

Having close to the military all of my life I can tell you that as far as military organizations around the world, the Canadian forces does have one of the best PTSD programs. I don't know that any of the accused have been diagnosed with PTSD at this point yet.

I'm not sure if you're willing to answer this question but if you are, can you say whether your friend was addicted before or after he joined the forces? I ask not because of political motivation but solely because of intellectual curiosity.

[helping_hand]

I can say that in our younger days, I do remember that we did smoke pot on occasion. I wouldn't have called him an addict back in those days. Maybe a recreational user of marijuana, nothing more. His addiction to stronger drugs (ie- opiates) has been something that has developed in the past year or so, to the best of my knowledge. All during his carreer in the military.

It is a hard thing for any friend to have to witness. While my friend still looks the same, talks the same, and walks the same, he is merely a shell of who he was. This type of an addiction drives a person into doing things that are unthinkable to the average person.

I saw him for the first time in almost 10yrs just the other night when I picked him up in Edmonton on base and drove him to the airport to return to Nb. We have maintained our friendship from opposite ends of our country. Now... Sadly, after being in cells for 27 days and drying out, he has returned to Nb and gone missing yet again with not a word to his family or friends. None of us can reach him.

I would like to belive that he will be found shortly, only to be locked up again without a doubt, but this time, I hope that they will actually treat the addiction, not just lock him up again. Unfourtunately all the information I really have for what the military has done for him so far, is from him, the addict. You can't trust a word they say. He reamins in all of our thoughts and prayers and if by some chance he is reading this.... I plead with you man, turn yourself in, get the help you need, we all love you.

[Catchme]

So you are saying he became addicted to opiates in Afghanistan?

I read an article somewhere on line that the parents of one of the fellows,. said he was about to be treated or had been treated for PTSD. I am still looking for it.

Anyway, all the best I hope and pray that he receives what he needs to help him recover, as I do all of them.

[helping_hand]

I can't say for sure.... I wasn't there to see it... That article you are referring to may in fact make reference to PTSD treatment, but as to whether or not the diagnosis has been made by a professional is questionable.

Addicts will use anything they can get their hands on to get their fix. I would imagine finding drugs of some sort oversea's wasn't out of the question.

[Army Guy]

Whatever happened to the old saying of, "Innocent until proven guilty"?

If the NIS has done 7 months of investagation do you really think they are innocent. Unlike another other institution any drug offense in the military is a serious one...I like to piont out that these indiv are military members and come under two separate justise systems, our civilian courts and our military courts and they can be punished under both.

If there were five drug dealers, who were their customers and why weren't they charged? What's the point in having laws which say simple possession is a crime if those laws aren't enforced

The investagation has proven that these were the only military members involved, not all were involved in trafficing .NIS does not investagate civil matters involving Civilians, strictly military members so although there may have been more involved they were not charged, what will become of that info i do not know..

And in the military simple possession is a very serious offence.

I would hope that the military would provide treatment for the sellers too. Drug addiction takes over, when these drugs are in control, a person will do what you never would have expected them to ever do, the drugs are in control.

The military does have rehab for any drug users, but for hard drugs this treatment is normally provided just before member is released, services no longer required. Drugs and the military do not mix at any time regardless of what drove them to use...

CB states that the buyers would receive counselling. Sounds like a far more humane and compassionate position that Harper's. Harper supports the current legislation for simple possession which includes potential jail time.

yes they are going to get counsil but do not count out doing time in a military prison, and trust me there are no comforts af home there, it is strictly a military prison where most of your rights are left at the door...

People use drugs for a reason, when people use drugs for a reason, from there becomes the need for sellers to those who feel the need to self medicate. Chicken egg scenario.

Don't give me that shit, there are no excuses for drug use in the military, none, got PTSD then seek help...the last thing i want is some F###ing pot head next to me on patrol in afgan with live ammo and the ability to wipe out a city block at the touch of a button....no thanks. hence why we have a double standarded hence why we have two completely different justise systems.

Addicts will use anything they can get their hands on to get their fix. I would imagine finding drugs of some sort oversea's wasn't out of the question.

Drugs are readily available overseas, in fact almost every patrol we go on we pass some form of drug either for sale or growing in fields. To combat this ,sections must have strong leadership, they must be aware of the personal at all times...getting caught overseas with any form of drug that is not prescribed is inviting a trip home into cells...and if your lucky a good beating by those comrads that have entrusted thier lives to you..

I don't buy that PTSD made me do it either, there is not a soldier over here that has not seen first hand the effects of war and have to live with that the rest of thier lives. Can't deal with the stresses of combat then say so you'll be removed and flown home for treatment. were as turning to vices is the cowards way out, as it puts those close to you in more danger...

[Catchme]

Whatever happened to the old saying of, "Innocent until proven guilty"?

I don't buy that PTSD made me do it either, there is not a soldier over here that has not seen first hand the effects of war and have to live with that the rest of thier lives. Can't deal with the stresses of combat then say so you'll be removed and flown home for treatment. were as turning to vices is the cowards way out, as it puts those close to you in more danger...

Oh, you are protesting the anti-drug stuff in the military way too much.

I would rather have a person beside me who smoked a joint last night than someone who got right whacked out of it on alcohol and has 1 messy hangover.

Nor was I referring to pot smoking in fact, I was speaking of hard drug use for self medicating.

And it is attitudes like yours, which prompts military personal NOT to speak of their PTSD and get help while in the military.

And oh ya, before I forget again, nice try inflating your Canadian military activity numbers as opposed to Observing/Peacekeeping by using Germany. When the wall was up, it was not a military offensive. It was a 8 month rotation in and out with mainly observation/monitoring duties and some manovers there were NO offensives. It was considered to be prime time to get to go Germany during the Cold War, you got to see all of Europe. Better than Cyprus or Egypt even. Of course, there were longer deployments in Germany, but I remember them being more Air Force than Armoured or Infantry. Though a friend was with PPCLI out of Victoria and was there for a few years. Either 3 or 5 comes to mind. Morever, the Canadian military their still considered ourselves peacekeepers/observers, not NATO fighters.

[Army Guy]

Catchme:

I would rather have a person beside me who smoked a joint last night than someone who got rigth whacked out of it on alcohol and has 1 messy hangover.

Thats kind of hard since the Afgan operation is dry with the exception of the very odd occasion of 2 beers per man.

Nor was I referring to pot smoking in fact, I was speaking of hard drug use for self medicating

I was ref to all drugs, be it pot or hard drugs.

And it is attitudes like yours, which prompts people NOT to speak of their PTSD and get help while in the military

..

What attitude would that be the battlefield is no place for drugs because it may get me or my section killed or the attitude if your sick get help which one i'm confused.

And oh ya, before I gorget again, nice try inflating your NATO activity numbers as opposed to Observing/Peacekeeping by using Germany. When the wall was up, it was not a military offensive. It was a 8 month rotation in and out with mainly observation/monitoring duties and some manovers there were NO offensives

You are on crack i'm now convinced that you have never served a day in your life and if you did it was on some secluded airforce base.

Germany was a NATO mission, one that was to respond to any warsaw pact invasion that never came, which meant that every unit there was on high readiness and at full war TO&E, not some peacekeeping mission. that meant there was armed aircraft on the tarmac and live air defense systems active at all times and the brigades war ammo for it's fighting troops readily available sounds like peace keeping to me... tours of duty were min of 3 years with some lasting as long as 5 or more years. this info is nothing new even available on google if you had bother to check...or do you make this up as you go...How many lies do we have to catch you in before you give up this charade. i hear by brand you your new nik "poser" everyone for say "Aye"

poser it is...

[Catchme]

Catchme:

Germany was a NATO mission, one that was to respond to any warsaw pact invasion that never came, which meant that every unit there was on high readiness and at full war TO&E, not some peacekeeping mission. that meant there was armed aircraft on the tarmac and live air defense systems active at all times and the brigades war ammo for it's fighting troops readily available sounds like peace keeping to me... tours of duty were min of 3 years with some lasting as long as 5 or more years. this info is nothing new even available on google if you had bother to check...or do you make this up as you go...How many lies do we have to catch you in before you give up this charade. i hear by brand you your new nik "poser" everyone for say "Aye"

poser it is...

I said it was a NATO operation in fact, and I said 3-5 years, if look by far the most who went, were reserves doing 8 month stints, unless you were in communications and it could be longer. And it was considered plum low risk.

Glad to hear there isn't alcohol. Though I concurr with your not wanting anyone under the influence looking after your back.

Truly, I care not what you say against me, you and CB have lied and been proven incorrect so many times I can't even be bothered with your slandering worry over the optics of a former military person speaking to truths. There are reasons why former military personal have become activists against war you know.

People should watch this video it is a good watch:

Veterans Against War

[Army Guy]

Catchme:

I said it was a NATO operation in fact, and I said 3-5 years, if look by far the most who went, were reserves doing 8 month stints, unless you were in communications and it could be longer. And it was considered plum low risk

If you are not concerned about what we think about you why are you editting your posts to cover your ass.

But even with your edit, your info is still not correct, Reserves made up only a small percentage of the total force infact they were considered a rare commodity on the cambat arms side, infact for the most part a soldier had to be TQ 5 qual to even get over to germany.

It was considered to be prime time to get to go Germany during the Cold War, you got to see all of Europe. Better than Cyprus or Egypt even. Of course, there were longer deployments in Germany, but I remember them being more Air Force than Armoured or Infantry. Though a friend was with PPCLI out of Victoria and was there for a few years. Either 3 or 5 comes to mind. Morever, the Canadian military their still considered ourselves peacekeepers/observers, not NATO fighters

Yes it was a good posting, The airforce had a complete fighter wing based in Germany exact numbers i'm not sure,mostly based out of Baden, but the army had by far the most number of military personal stationed in Lahr germany with the RCR or PPCLI based in Baden. the army portion made up a complete war time strength Brigade group, well over 6000 pers.

All our germany personal were part of a much larger NATO force who's sole purpose was to defend europe from the Warsaw pact forces, and to accomplish that we were on a constant war readiness posture..

not doing observer or peacekeeping duties but ready to defend europe at a moments notice....

Truly, I care not what you say against me, you and CB have lied and been proven incorrect so many times I can't even be bothered with your slandering worry over the optics of a former military person speaking to truths. There are reasons why former military personal have become activists against war you know

Then why would you doctor your post if not only to cover your ass, why have you consistantly provided this forum with False info, your actions and info has lead me to belief that you are a "poser", a wanna be, someone who is taking advantage of the good deeds and sacrafices of those that have served this great nation..for nothing more than to give yourself some credibility. nothing about what you have said in ref to us being primarily peacekeepers is true, most of your facts about operations about afgan are false, and your facts on germany are just made up, It is the simple info that every soldier should know or atleast know where to find that info that is missing in your case... Infact you never even bothered to goggle your info just made it up..

There are reasons why former military personal have become activists against war you know.

Yes there is alot of reasons why military members speak out again'st the war, what is yours? perhaps you can give us one news article in one major paper where serving members have spoken out again'st our current mission. infact find one former soldier that has served in afgan that is speaking out about afgan.

My piont is that it is rare, Soldiers have come back missing limbs or have had thier lives changed forever are speaking for the mission, and continue thier support for thier comrads..Many are volunteering to return to afgan despite all of the dangers, not because we crave the adrenline rush but because we know we can make a difference here, that we are making a difference here and our sacrafice is worth it...but that does not speak to you, our opinons do not count, or we've been brainwashed.

[helping_hand]

You are obviously a very angry induvidual...

[guyser]

I wonder where the people are who support just shooting these guys. You know, some of them might have a 16 yr old daughter who bought some pot.

[Catchme]

I wonder where the people are who support just shooting these guys. You know, some of them might have a 16 yr old daughter who bought some pot.

Great point!