Ontario strips the wheels from drop-outs

[reffric]

If you drive, don't drop out.

Ontario teens under the age of 18 will lose their driver's licence if they drop out of high school under a new law passed Tuesday.

Premier Dalton McGuinty said the new law tells kids it's no longer acceptable for them to drop out of high school and hang around at the shopping mall.

The law forces teens to stay in school until 18, but gives them different ways to earn their diploma through apprenticeships and co-op placements.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home

[guyser]

ON the surface this may seem okay, but I have plenty of worries about this. The slippery slope angle for one.

But more info is needed to decide.

What if the kid has parents that are rotten parents. The kid wants out of a bad situation and drops out of school. Does he have to go the co-op route to maitain a licence? What if he is gifted artistically and can get a job doing that?

Hey Mcquinty, how about offering a incentive to those that stay in school?

[reffric]

Hey Mcquinty, how about offering a incentive to those that stay in school?

Doing the right thing is what you are suppose to do. Should we really give out government handouts for people who obey society's norms?

You stayed off the crack pipe. Fifty bucks.

[guyser]

Hey Mcquinty, how about offering a incentive to those that stay in school?

Doing the right thing is what you are suppose to do. Should we really give out government handouts for people who obey society's norms?

You stayed off the crack pipe. Fifty bucks.

I think you misread me . I was suggesting that instead of harming a kid who may "have to" drop out of school why not turnaround and gove an incentive.

OR...

Get rid fo this dumb piece of legislation .

What is "doing the right thing?" (thats rhetorical, none of us can answer this universally)

[reffric]

I think you misread me . I was suggesting that instead of harming a kid who may "have to" drop out of school why not turnaround and gove an incentive.

OR...

Get rid fo this dumb piece of legislation .

What is "doing the right thing?" (thats rhetorical, none of us can answer this universally)

If you want to get rid of the legislation, that is one thing. If that is your stance I respect your opinion.

However, the idea that we need incentives to do things as simple as stay in school is ridiculous. Sure the concept of "the right thing" is a hard thing to define, but I would assume that it would be universally accepted that staying in school would be the better of the two options of staying in school or dropping out. Maybe there are circumstances that would force a person to drop out for a period of time, but completing a basic level of education would in my mind be defined as the right thing to do.

To me it is like when people say there should be incentives to vote in elections to bring out voters. Shouldn't the incentive be that you get to participate in the election. Much like this issue, shouldn't the incentive be that you get to have a formal level of education.

[guyser]

Again, you misread me, perhaps it is me that needs to be clearer?

I am not advocating an incentive per se, just that if the pendulum swings way right, then I will swing it left. Thus the "incentive". I was never truly serious about it.

Here it is.... drop out of school = penalized , at least as it was yesterday.

drop out of school + remove licence = penalized further

Get rid of this entirely. Besides, the school board still counts him as a student and they still get the money.

[BHS]

I read the article and I must admit to some confusion. Are sixteen-year-olds still legally allowed to drop out of school? That was the cut-off age when I was a lad. If it's still true, then all you have to do is formally drop out of school. You can't be charged with truancy if you aren't a student. This law has been amended so that it only applies to truants, according to the article.

[geoffrey]

No one has a 'right' to drive. Who cares. Making a high school education a qualification for a drivers license makes sense to me. Why are people dropping out of school today... that's the real issue?

[Melanie_]

I'm all in favour of people pursuing their education, but this seems like a slippery slope. What else should high school education be a prerequisite for? Should we grandfather this new law - how many 50 year olds out there didn't complete high school, but are still permitted to keep thier license?

Getting a driver's license may not be a right, but it is something that someone can achieve via their own skills, with or without a high school education. Taking away this accomplishment just reinforces high school dropouts' sense of failure, rather than giving them a tool to help them make their way. Not everyone is academically inclined, but that doesn't reduce their value as a person who has other talents to work with. This seems unneccesarily punitive to me.

[geoffrey]

You don't need to be academically gifted to graduate high school... have you ever seen the lower level courses??

Back in high school I helped a friend that was in Math 24... the minimum to graduate in Alberta. This was a level of math I hadn't seen since grade 7 or 8. All very applied.

As well, there are plenty of programs that cater to students in the trades, which I think all non-academic people should be pushed towards. If your going to drop out, at least give yourself a chance and learn a trade through school... while gaining at least a basic understanding of society through completion of your high school diploma.

Adding to the sense of failure for dropouts will discourage people from dropping out. A message needs to be sent, it's completely unacceptable and you'll get nothing in life if you do it.

The biggest threat to students from where I'm at was the temptation to jump out at grade 12 and taken a few years off to work on the rigs for six figures. I wonder how many have gone back sense, or who's still working as a floorhand on the rigs?

[blueblood]

You don't need to be academically gifted to graduate high school... have you ever seen the lower level courses??

Back in high school I helped a friend that was in Math 24... the minimum to graduate in Alberta. This was a level of math I hadn't seen since grade 7 or 8. All very applied.

As well, there are plenty of programs that cater to students in the trades, which I think all non-academic people should be pushed towards. If your going to drop out, at least give yourself a chance and learn a trade through school... while gaining at least a basic understanding of society through completion of your high school diploma.

Adding to the sense of failure for dropouts will discourage people from dropping out. A message needs to be sent, it's completely unacceptable and you'll get nothing in life if you do it.

The biggest threat to students from where I'm at was the temptation to jump out at grade 12 and taken a few years off to work on the rigs for six figures. I wonder how many have gone back sense, or who's still working as a floorhand on the rigs?

I'm pretty sure you need your grade 12 to work on the rigs plus you need to pass an H2S test. Prior to this year a person could shoot up the ranks pretty quick, this one guy I know went straight out of high school and was a driller by the time he's 22, but he admits he's sick of the lifestyle out there and plans to attend post secondary education. Imagine going to school and your buddy shows up with a jacked up 60 grand truck and spends hundreds of dollars in the bar that night... I seriously don't think school is the be all and end all, that's just society blabbing to us, I'd like to go to the days when getting your grade 12 gave you a decent job, a university degree was worth something, and if you dropped out of school it wasn't the end of the world.

[geoffrey]

Imagine going to school and your buddy shows up with a jacked up 60 grand truck and spends hundreds of dollars in the bar that night...

It's a big problem. I still think university is worth something, if you do something with it. Most kids in school think that a degree is a ticket to money, which it's obviously not. It's a competitive advantage.

Now I work (while going to school) in a fair strong job market, especially in Calgary, in a very strong field. As a professional in this, I make half of what some of my friends on the rigs make without an education. And I'm making pretty damned good cash for a young student, considerably above the national average for a university educated person twice my age.

This is a problem. Why bother even finishing high school?

And about needing high school... it's not a requirement in some places, especially with the small operators where strong arms and the ability to be pushed around is all you need. The H2S alive course is a joke and could be passed by a ten year old. I had to take it when doing some field work with a previous employer.

I guess it's a bigger issue in Alberta... what are these people to do when oil and gas slows? We're going to have a social welfare situation like none other. In Ontario, my question is what the hell are these drop outs doing anyways? Living at home doing nothing? Very likely.

[punked]

Second largest amount of oil in the world it aint slowing soon.

[blueblood]

Imagine going to school and your buddy shows up with a jacked up 60 grand truck and spends hundreds of dollars in the bar that night...

It's a big problem. I still think university is worth something, if you do something with it. Most kids in school think that a degree is a ticket to money, which it's obviously not. It's a competitive advantage.

Now I work (while going to school) in a fair strong job market, especially in Calgary, in a very strong field. As a professional in this, I make half of what some of my friends on the rigs make without an education. And I'm making pretty damned good cash for a young student, considerably above the national average for a university educated person twice my age.

This is a problem. Why bother even finishing high school?

And about needing high school... it's not a requirement in some places, especially with the small operators where strong arms and the ability to be pushed around is all you need. The H2S alive course is a joke and could be passed by a ten year old. I had to take it when doing some field work with a previous employer.

I guess it's a bigger issue in Alberta... what are these people to do when oil and gas slows? We're going to have a social welfare situation like none other. In Ontario, my question is what the hell are these drop outs doing anyways? Living at home doing nothing? Very likely.

I can hear you on that when oil and gas slows, a lot of the young people back home would be ruined if that happened. this is an urban vs. rural issue again, in the sticks a kid could work on a farm and learn the ropes from it without grade 12, a kid could go work in the bush and do all right, a kid could go work in the tire shop and be fine, can go work in a mine and be fine, they don't pay well but the cost of living in small town Canada offsets that. I believe the rural economy needs a significant boost which would help out the cities by taking the pressure off of them, give value back to getting a degree and grade 12 by providing employment for those who don't "need" it.

[Remiel]

I wonder what kind of chaos would ensue if we were to consider persuing a style of education modelled more heavily on the German system of Apprenticeships and the Gymnasium.

[margrace]

No one has a 'right' to drive. Who cares. Making a high school education a qualification for a drivers license makes sense to me. Why are people dropping out of school today... that's the real issue?

Hi let me dip into this one. I agree with you. I also believe in peoples right to choice but here is where my ideals get a little mixed.

Having volunteered in the food bank for a few years I wonder how we can help these young people? One family was mentally challenged, the whole family. The father would try anything, he just could not achieve the level in any paying job that government regulations required. The children, as they grew into adults, were very protected by their parents and were very high in self esteem. But again they tended to live in a world that did not exist for the rest of us. The son loved computers, but he volunteered in a CAP project and had no idea what he was doing. For the sake of the other volunteers, whom he tended to try to order around, he had to be let go. What do you do with these people.?

Another example is of a disfunctional family and this is a more common one. The children tended to be very aggressive for whatever reason, but probably because of what went on at home, and created problems for everyone.

I know of a school board that recognized problems in such a family but when they recommended intervention in this family they were threatened with a law suit. They backed off in a hurry.

Whether we want to acknowledge it or not there are a lot of disfuntional families out there. These are the ones where the children tend to drop out or create problems in schools. Disfunction is caused by families that cannot get along, where there is bullying by one or both of the parents, where there is drug and alchohol abuse and where parents do not have any value for education themselves and do not encourage their children to become educated.

In Ontario, where good alternate high schools were set up supporting the trades, there was a strong culture of people looking down on children who were sent to these schools, they were the dummies. No parent wanted their child to have that stigma attached to them even if they knew their children had high IQ's but would rather be a house builder than a doctor. Now Ontario is in a huge crunch were the blue collar labour force is disappearing.

There are also the ones who have no level of self esteem or of a work ethic, who are quite happy to do nothing. What do we do with them? They will get married, they will create children, what do we do, let them starve?

I don't know were peoples rights come into all this, the right of the wage earner to have some say in how his money is spent, the right of the ones on welfare to do nothing if they so choose.

And lots of people get on welfare and use food banks through no fault of their own, luck has a lot to do with what happens to one to.

Any other ideas on this.

[Hydraboss]

No one has a 'right' to drive. Who cares. Making a high school education a qualification for a drivers license makes sense to me. Why are people dropping out of school today... that's the real issue?

Hi let me dip into this one. I agree with you. I also believe in peoples right to choice but here is where my ideals get a little mixed.

Having volunteered in the food bank for a few years I wonder how we can help these young people? One family was mentally challenged, the whole family. The father would try anything, he just could not achieve the level in any paying job that government regulations required. The children, as they grew into adults, were very protected by their parents and were very high in self esteem. But again they tended to live in a world that did not exist for the rest of us. The son loved computers, but he volunteered in a CAP project and had no idea what he was doing. For the sake of the other volunteers, whom he tended to try to order around, he had to be let go. What do you do with these people.?

Another example is of a disfunctional family and this is a more common one. The children tended to be very aggressive for whatever reason, but probably because of what went on at home, and created problems for everyone.

I know of a school board that recognized problems in such a family but when they recommended intervention in this family they were threatened with a law suit. They backed off in a hurry.

Whether we want to acknowledge it or not there are a lot of disfuntional families out there. These are the ones where the children tend to drop out or create problems in schools. Disfunction is caused by families that cannot get along, where there is bullying by one or both of the parents, where there is drug and alchohol abuse and where parents do not have any value for education themselves and do not encourage their children to become educated.

In Ontario, where good alternate high schools were set up supporting the trades, there was a strong culture of people looking down on children who were sent to these schools, they were the dummies. No parent wanted their child to have that stigma attached to them even if they knew their children had high IQ's but would rather be a house builder than a doctor. Now Ontario is in a huge crunch were the blue collar labour force is disappearing.

There are also the ones who have no level of self esteem or of a work ethic, who are quite happy to do nothing. What do we do with them? They will get married, they will create children, what do we do, let them starve?

I don't know were peoples rights come into all this, the right of the wage earner to have some say in how his money is spent, the right of the ones on welfare to do nothing if they so choose .

And lots of people get on welfare and use food banks through no fault of their own, luck has a lot to do with what happens to one to.

Any other ideas on this.

What has any of this got to do with high school as a driving prerequisite? It is a simple matter to pick out one or two dysfunctional families. The one you describe shouldn't be driving anyway, any of them. Blue collar high schools are still that...high school.

NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO STAY ON WELFARE - NO EXCEPTIONS. This pisses me off to no end. Welfare is not a right. Welfare is not a right. For those that may not have heard me...Welfare is not a right.

What the hell does welfare or drug abuse or aggressive children have to do with a driver's license???????

[guyser]

[

What has any of this got to do with high school as a driving prerequisite? It is a simple matter to pick out one or two dysfunctional families. The one you describe shouldn't be driving anyway, any of them. Blue collar high schools are still that...high school.

NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO STAY ON WELFARE - NO EXCEPTIONS. This pisses me off to no end. Welfare is not a right. Welfare is not a right. For those that may not have heard me...Welfare is not a right.

What the hell does welfare or drug abuse or aggressive children have to do with a driver's license???????

Actually , Welfare is a right, just not enshrined in the Charter.

If you pay into it, and as such it is an insurance programme , then you do have the right to collect.

Welfare drug abuse etc only has to do with it as it affects the family unit and may be a reason why the kid quit school. Some, and myself included , are saying why saddle the kid with a further burden ? His family might suck as it is, why penalize the child any more?

[Hydraboss]

Wrong. Welfare is not a right. It is a social safety net program. If the government of the day wanted to cancel it, they could. Therefore it is not a right of any kind.

It is also not an insurance program. You don't have to pay into it in order to collect.

And it has nothing to do with a driver's license.

[blueblood]

How the hell is welfare a right, if I work off farm, part of my job wages will go into E.I. if I get fired from said job or quit, I won't be able to get the E.I. due to the fact that I own land. Part of my wage I will never ever get to see, why should I subsidize someone else if they get fired or quit?

Welfare drug abuse etc only has to do with it as it affects the family unit and may be a reason why the kid quit school. Some, and myself included , are saying why saddle the kid with a further burden ? His family might suck as it is, why penalize the child any more?

Some, and myself included are saying why saddle a guy who is getting ahead with the burden of this kid and family, it's not our fault that they are in that mess. But I don't see why we should punish a kid for quitting school by taking away his driver's liscence, that driver's liscence might be his only way he can have a shot at a living.

[guyser]

Wrong. Welfare is not a right. It is a social safety net program. If the government of the day wanted to cancel it, they could. Therefore it is not a right of any kind.

It is also not an insurance program. You don't have to pay into it in order to collect.

And it has nothing to do with a driver's license.

I stand corrected. I was thinking EI when posting about welfare.