Merger Up To Harper

[westcoast99]

Speaking with CTV's Mike Duffy on Thursday, Peter MacKay made it very clear that the decision to merge is up to Harper, but the PC's want riding equality or "We're going it alone." said MacKay.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Gugsy

[theWatcher]

The biggest problem with the delegate selection process is that there are many many ridings with 0 members from either parties.

And this riding becomes equivelent to a riding that has say 5,000 members.

So you can cancel out opponents populated ridings by finding a solitary breathing body to vote for you.

Theoretically you could get 75 people in Quebec to represent 75 ridings, and 300,000 in Alberta representing 34?

Harpers counter proposal was to apply some sort of weighting so that you had to have at least 100 members in a riding or you would be penalized by some percentage.

I don't think CA members would approve of a totally delegated selection, remember that the leaders making the proposal have to get each party to ratify the deal.

[sir_springer]

If and when the CA membership is polled on accepting the PCs delegated leadership convention, I, for one, will be voting:

NOPE!

As will, I'm sure, most CA members.

MacKay can take that one and stick it unowhere...sideways.

IMHO, we've reached the point where Harper should tell MacKay to go pound salt.

Enough of this crap.

On election day, the PCs will be wiped out.

Which will be perfect and deserved justice.

[Cameron]

Very well said Gugsy....

[dnsfurlan]

If you go by what's happened so far, I wouldn't be suprised in the least if Harper called Mackay on the offer. The question is whether Mackay is bluffing or not.

Besides, what kind of a way is that to negotiate?

It never ceases to amaze me how PCs seem to go ga-ga over proposals which only require compromise from the other side.

Mackay as interim leader? Terrific! Equality of all ridings? Why the hell not! Keep the PC constitution? Sounds fair to me.

Come on.

This is no way to negotiate - requiring benevolence from one side only.

Mackay seemed to have no problem in compromising the PC Party principles when his ambitions were at stake. Its called the Mackay/Orchard Pact. Now, in order to save that job for himself, he is not open to any compromise whatsoever.

If it is his position that a merger will happen if equality of all ridings is preserved, I think Harper will come back with a counterproposal which accepts it, only with other compromises added. Then, we'll probably see Mackay squirm again.

What a way to run negotiations. :angry:

[theWatcher]

Mackay seemed to have no problem in compromising the PC Party principles when his ambitions were at stake. Its called the Mackay/Orchard Pact. Now, in order to save that job for himself, he is not open to any compromise whatsoever.

How about this theory.

What if Mackay's principles are to just gain power and keep power?

It would explain the Orchard deal. Say whatever it takes to become leader.

Attempting to make a merger with CA appeases the right hand side of his party, and not actually merging appeases the left hand side of his party.

Then he puts enough conditions on the merger deal so that if it actually goes ahead he's got a pretty good shot at winning it.

No merger, he's the leader. Merger on his terms and he still has a pretty good shot at being the leader.

Any terms less than the ones that will give him a shot at being the new leader and he simply says no.

Mackay's statement that he can show that he is bargaining in good faith by having agreed to drop the name "progressive" from the party is the dumbest thing i have heard in politics in quite a while.

[Mr. Chater]

Speaking with CTV's Mike Duffy on Thursday, Peter MacKay made it very clear that the decision to merge is up to Harper, but the PC's want riding equality or "We're going it alone." said MacKay.

So, here we've got to look at something. Should Harper be the bigger man here, and do something for the good of the country, while sacrificing a grassroots populist belief?

I think it is unfair that MacKay is unwilling to compromise on this, but for the good of the entire nation, if the only way this could get done is by Harper agreeing to a riding equality system, I believe he should do it.

Otherwise, we're in for a Liberal majority for the next 5 years.

Let Harper be the mature one, and let's get on with preparing for an election.

yeah, rather have a liberal Minority and better, Mojority Conservative.

[dnsfurlan]

What if Mackay's principles are to just gain power and keep power?

No merger, he's the leader. Merger on his terms and he still has a pretty good shot at being the leader.

The problem with this is that I think he has no shot at being leader of the new party, even if the terms are that favourable to the PCs. I think its one of the reasons why I don't think he is sincere about merger. For Mackay, this may be about power, but its about the power of being leader of the only party that wants him there - the PC Party of Canada.

If I am right, and he doesn't want merger, then the only thing that will get him there is pressure from behind the scenes. I think its this pressure that got him to start these merger talks in the first place. And I think its the only thing that will get him to sign on the dotted line in the last place.

You know, I saw a political discussion panel criticize these talks because it took a plane to Toronto in order to get them to sit down together. Why couldn't they just walk down the hall in Parliament and sit down to talk.

Well, guess what? That's exactly what Harper wanted to do but Mackay wanted none of it. No talks. Nothing.

To me, Harper is the only one working hard to get something done. Mackay seems more keen on having his Thanksgiving dinner.

[Mr. Chater]

What if Mackay's principles are to just gain power and keep power?

No merger, he's the leader. Merger on his terms and he still has a pretty good shot at being the leader.

The problem with this is that I think he has no shot at being leader of the new party, even if the terms are that favourable to the PCs. I think its one of the reasons why I don't think he is sincere about merger. For Mackay, this may be about power, but its about the power of being leader of the only party that wants him there - the PC Party of Canada.

If I am right, and he doesn't want merger, then the only thing that will get him there is pressure from behind the scenes. I think its this pressure that got him to start these merger talks in the first place. And I think its the only thing that will get him to sign on the dotted line in the last place.

If Mackay does want power, then he is far from it. We all know it, he has spent too much time whineing about the discussion and it does not look like he wants it at all. Hes a sharp kid, just made one too many mistakes on this journey for merger. I don't think much can save him taht would let me become Leader. I don't think even harper would get it. I believe it is time for a new face.

[westcoast99]

Unless we see a merger, Springer, the result will continually be the same.

Liberal majority government, Alliance opposition.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Gugsy

[dnsfurlan]

Gugsy, come on. There has to be SOME compromise on the part of the PCs. You just can't form a new party requiring sacrifice from one side only. That's just a non-starter. Politics is about the art of compromise - its not a charity. If Mackay sticks to his position of non-compromise than there cannot possibly be any deal. Politics just doesn't work the way. Harper is the leader of a political party, not the United Way. Requiring such benevolence from him, even if for a good cause, is asking for foolishness. I don't think in the history of negotiations has anyone ever made a deal where one side was required to make sacrifice. It just can't be done. SOMETHING has to come from Mackay.

Let's remember, there are two parties in these negotiations, which means that both sides want to have something happen -which means both sides have to give up something. Expecting anything more of Harper is competely unfair.

What Mackay is essentially asking of Harper is to cut himself in the throat in order to donate some blood.

The focus here shouldn't be on Harper, since way too much is being asked of him. The focus, in my opinion, should be on Mackay. If he is that stubborn about not wanting a deal, then he should say so and then we can all go on with the rest of our lives.

[westcoast99]

We need to do whatever it takes to create 1 party.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Gugsy

[dnsfurlan]

Forget negotiating. We need to do whatever it takes to create 1 party, and that's the end of it.

But how do you do that? That's the million dollar question. And how do you do it without negotiating?

[Mr. Chater]

It's so frustrating.

I don't think it can be made any clearer.

Forget negotiating. We need to do whatever it takes to create 1 party, and that's the end of it.

We're all with you, but there are questions. heh, such as dnsfurlan's.

[sir_springer]

Harper is the leader of a political party, not the United Way.

Gugsy, set aside the desperation thing and come back down to earth.

Perhaps unity would be nice...but it's not the panacea that you're making it out to be.

I believe that in this coming election people will be looking for a change, come hell or high water.

There is only one option, this much has become patently clear. MacKay is a rookie and a piker, so out of his league he deserves pity, not votes.

Something new may happen in this election.

The west and Ontario may form the next government, albeit a minority one.

I'm thinking that what we just saw provincially in Ontario is an omen for the next election.

Change is the order of the day.

The CA can cut a swath through the Liberals and Martin, if not win outright.

There is a major upset in the making right now, I can smell it from a million miles away. Not wishful thinking, but realism.

Martin is going to crash and burn, big time.

Don't panic, partner. This ain't over yet, not by a long shot.

[dnsfurlan]

The west and Ontario may form the next government, albeit a minority one.

I'm thinking that what we just saw provincially in Ontario is an omen for the next election.

Change is the order of the day.

Don't you think there is a big difference betwenn Ernie Eves and Paul Martin?

Eves micro-managed his way back into politics and got turfed. Martin has been planning to be the next PM for the last decade.

And Martin is setting himself up as the agent of change.

Unless someone can seriously challenge that assertion, its gonna be Paul Martin's country all the way, isn't it?

[theWatcher]

And Martin is setting himself up as the agent of change.

Paul Martin has yet to open his mouth. It's incredible that someone can become the Prime Minister of our country without having said one word of any substance.

So much has been promised that no one could possibly deliver, and Chretien has poisoned him big time.

That along with all the wastage, and his private interests, but the one that personally bother me the most...

Setting up private corporations? ran by the liberals with Canadian tax dollars and not having to be accountable with the money. This one reeks so badly that it invalidates anything he says he will do. And he was the man who set them up.

[dnsfurlan]

That along with all the wastage, and his private interests, but the one that personally bother me the most...

Setting up private corporations? ran by the liberals with Canadian tax dollars and not having to be accountable with the money. This one reeks so badly that it invalidates anything he says he will do. And he was the man who set them up.

Why isn't this message getting out there? Isn't this part of the problem with the current opposition?

I hope someone has a gameplan set up against Martin. And they better start implimenting it in time for the next election. :angry:

[westcoast99]

If we do not merge now, we'll be revisiting this after the next election only with an increased Liberal majority.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Gugsy

[Neal.F.]

Actually, no. We won't be revisting this. The PC party will not survive the Martin juggernaut, and MacKay's name will live on in Canaddian political infamy.

But the CA will NOT be a contender for power on its own, and will emerge all the weaker for the 2008 election with a steep hill to climb.

What's more, if Martin is a one term PM as many suggest he will be, there is a very real possibility that he will be succeeded by a westerner...one Ralph Goodale. Now won't THAT put the CA in a good position...NOT.

It's merge or die. Who likes the sound of these words? ONE PARTY RULE.

[sir_springer]

Don't you think there is a big difference betwenn Ernie Eves and Paul Martin?

Eves micro-managed his way back into politics and got turfed. Martin has been planning to be the next PM for the last decade.

And Martin is setting himself up as the agent of change.

Unless someone can seriously challenge that assertion, its gonna be Paul Martin's country all the way, isn't it?

The Ontario PCs, unfortunately for them, had a lot of negative things with which to deal in the last couple of years, including the effects of 9/11, SARS, and Waterton. None of it was really their fault, but nevertheless they became associated with a great deal of negativity.

The mood of the electorate becomes one of, "If we change the government, we get a fresh start, free of all this negativity."

Eves rode relatively high in polling early on, too...until people realized that the government is more than one man.

Martin is desperately...and I mean desperately...trying to sell himself as an agent of change.

But he still will be leading the same collection of clowns, won't he?

Right now, he has the luxury of picking his crowds, and showing up when he wants to, and addressing only the questions and issues that suit him.

Once he assumes the PMO, and his new seat in the House, it will be open season on this SOB.

And just because he is there does not mean that all the slime that is constantly oozing out from every crack in his government will suddenly go away. The Auditor General will still be turning out one damning report after another on waste and patronage. The same set of stooges on his benches will still be bungling their roles, and shooting off their mouths.

It will not take long for Canadians to realise that damn little is going to change in Ottawa just because Martin is at the helm.

People are sick and tired of these guys. They're sick and tired of Liberals. The last several years has been a litany of one fiasco after another, billion dollar boondoggles, scandal, and even corruption.

Or, in a word: negativity.

Sooner or later, Martin is going to have to face the music.

What can he possibly say when Harper nails him in front of the nation on such truths as his own complicity in gutting healthcare and the military? Or his own neglect, as CFO of the entire government, while billions were being wasted on crap and patronage and screwups?

He can't deny it. If he does, he looks like...and in fact, is...a liar.

He can't say that he was only following orders. What does this say about his own leadership abilities? Or about his own moral character? Plausible denial simply will not cut it with the electorate.

Like Eves following in the shadow of Harris, at the end of the day Martin is complicit and implicated in all the crap wrought by his predecessor. There is no way that, try as he might, he can wash his hands of it.

Pay attention to what is going on.

Canadians are not making a fuss over Martin; Liberals are.

Why? Because Liberals are desperate to distance themselves from all the crap brought on by Chretien and his government. Liberals, particularly within caucus and the heirarchy, know that they are in trouble with the electorate.

And they know that, given one credible alternative, the electorate will dump them like last weeks leftovers.

Liberals also know this:

Harper is credible, capable, talented...and damn intelligent. They also know that, unlike Day or Manning, he's not packing any social conservative baggage worth mentioning on his sleeve...the same sort of baggage used to scare voters away from Harper's own predecessors.

They know that Harper, unlike Day, knows the ropes in Ottawa. He is no rookie, and seldom slips.

IOW, Harper ain't that different from them...other than he's not a Liberal Leftist. And it's pretty tough to stoke voters' fears on merely the idea that someone is a "conservative"...particularly when the Liberals own record stinks to high hell.

The only reason Martin seems to be the agent of change right now is because the predominantly Liberal Leftist media in this country is bending over backwards...far enough to kiss their own arses...to convince Canadians that there is no one else.

However, in an election campaign the media no longer controls the entire program.

The CA is amassing a considerable war-chest for this campaign. And Harper made it clear from the get-go that he will not be nearly as lenient or nice with the Liberals as was Stock Day.

Thus, expect...because Harper knows the ropes...a slugfest next time out. This campaign will be professional from the word go. They are going so far as to educate constituency associations on what to do and not do. They are, as much as is possible, leaving very little to chance.

Just as crucially, the CA caucus in 110% on side behind Harper. His leadership is virtually unquestionable.

The Liberals are going to be dodging bullets, salvos, and broadsides in this election like they can't believe is possible.

Remember Harper's own campaign for the CA leadership?

Masterful. I read one article, following a leadership debate, in which Harper, with regard to his handling of his opponents in the race, was described as "devistating".

The man's acuity is razor sharp. His arguements are excruciatingly tough to defend against. His clarity and delivery are honed to a fine point, and then aimed with marksman precision.

In a verbal punch up...which is what election campaigns amount to...this guy is no slouch, make no mistake about it.

And the Liberals know it...bigtime do they know it.

More to the point...

Martin knows it.

Which is precisely why he is avoiding Harper like the plague.

Well, he can only run and hide for so long.

Like a train in the night, his moment in Harper's sights is coming.